Dogs and Cats beggetting eachother. :)

[thessalonian]

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject:

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Dogs cannot beget cats. Monkeys cannot beget rabbits. Fish do not beget birds, lizards do not beget turtles, yet God's only begotten son is a human? We do know that he is Son of Man by his birth through Mary. But he is also God's only begotten son. Eternally begotten.

Psalm 2
7: I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.

Heb 1
5: For to what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?

God beget a man? That's like a man begetting an ant. Even worse. :-?

Jesus is God folks. Always was, always will be. Now work out the rest of the details for yourselves in this trinitarian/arian debate.

:o

Blessings

 

[mutzrein]

Ah now I see what you are getting at in my thread. I hadn't seen this one but I'm still at a loss to see why you posted this in the thread I started.

But as regards your conclusion. Another fallacious argument I would say. God created each animal after their kind so the natural consequence of their creation means that one kind cannot beget another.

In God's infinite power and wisdom He begat a Son who was revealed to man to be in the image of the invisible God - inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection attributed to the Father. But that doesn't make him God.

But if you want to argue on a natural level.

I am begotten of my natural father. I have inherited his attributes and imperfections. I am in His image. So what is in me is of him and what you see in me is also in my father. I am in him and he is in me. We are one since I am born of him. But this doesn't make me my father nor does it make my father me.

But in any case, God also created man in His image. Seems like this is also another elusive concept for many.

 

[Imagican]

Nice one Mutz.

Thess, what you have offered is essentially true. But God does as God does and since HE created genetics, He is able to do with it as He sees fit. Remember, HIS WILL BE DONE, on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

Jesus IS the Son of God. This we KNOW for a FACT. for this we have BEEN TOLD. And as I have already pointed out, Jesus was the Son of God BEFORE the creation of man. This in NO way takes away from the idea of Jesus being 'created' Himself. And He would still be the beginning and the end; of mankind. And before Abraham, He was. And Jesus being created by the Father WOULD MAKE HIM HIS SON.

So, you are right. Cats make cats, and dogs make dogs and God made His Son to reign with Hiim in Heaven and to be our King one day upon earth. he sits at the 'right hand' of God and has been given power by the Father. He came in the flesh, died and lives again, now and forevermore.

 

[DivineNames]

We do know that he is Son of Man by his birth through Mary. But he is also God's only begotten son. Eternally begotten.

Psalm 2
7: I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.

Do the words, "today I have begotten you" suggest being eternally begotten?

 

[Klee shay]

God beget a man? That's like a man begetting an ant. Even worse.

This isn't hard to reconcile when God is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end; therefore he writes what He understands not what mankind does.

Jesus is God folks. Always was, always will be.

Jesus is what God defined as His Son MATTHEW 3:17 and MATTHEW 16:16-17...nothing more.

 

[BenJasher]

Hold on a minute! Before everyone stampedes off into the wild blue yonder with this thread, let's back up to one simple concept here. "Like begets like"
Goats beget goats. Lizards beget lizards. And never the twain shall mix.

Let's see if that pattern isn't trying to show us something here.
We were created in the image and likeness of God, much like Mutzrein stated that he was made in the image and likeness of his father. Salient point, I might add.

For us to be in the image and likeness of God would seem to indicate that we were "Godkind"; would it not? The story tells that He created all that exists, but man is the only one "in His image and likeness."

Doth not the scriptures state; "Ye are elohim"? Or in another place, "Know ye not that ye are elohim?" Was it not Elohim who stated "Let us make man in OUR image. Who were we talking to, anyway? Ourselves?

For Jesus to be the Begotten of the Father, and to be found in the form of Human flesh, can only indicate one thing, boys and girls: Humankind is Godkind. That is why Jesus was a Man, God in the Flesh.

 

[mutzrein]

Yes it was God who said, “Let us make man in our image.†But what does this mean? Many believe this speaks of intellectual and perhaps physical qualities and characteristics. They cite things such as creativity, ability to reason, for example. But surely this is not a reflection of God, for God is Spirit.

Right throughout Jesus’ ministry he makes reference to the man of the flesh and the man of the Spirit, and defines them as being two distinctive birthrights.
As Jesus taught Nicodemus, “Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God . . . flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.â€Â

Thus bringing into perspective the concept of the true worshippers being born of the Spirit. As Jesus said, “God is Spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth.â€Â

So then where scripture says, ‘God said, let us make man in our image’ it is not the physical but the spiritual. It means in the image of God and Jesus, being that of the Spirit, the seed of our spiritual birth - which was the birth Jesus was speaking about when he told Nicodemus, “You must be born again.â€Â

In Genesis we read of two foundations for the birth of man but the concept of being born again was not revealed until Jesus came. Thus fulfilling the words of the psalmist when speaking of Jesus ministry, “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.â€Â

Now let us look at the creation of man as recorded in Genesis when God made the heavens and the earth.
Regarding the spiritual: God said, “Let us make man in our image.†. . . So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Regarding the natural: The LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Paul writes comprehensively on this issue when addressing the Corinthians and states, ‘The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. . . . The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have born the likeness of the earthly man so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.â€Â

 

[BenJasher]

Quick question for ya, Mutz:

Did any of your pedantic didactics undo what I said about mankind being Godkind? Or were you even arguing my point?

I have to ask, simply because I am unable to ascertain the answer.

 

[mutzrein]

No BJ

Pedantic didantics - LOL. Gotta work hard to get a point across sometimes.

I wasn't really 'arguing' any point you made. Since you mentioned a salient point I made - one which I hoped would not be lost - I was building on what it means to be made in the image of God.

Since I am not a trinitarian, if there is a point I would argue, it would probably be your closing statement of 'Jesus was a Man, God in the Flesh'.

 

[BenJasher]

 

[BenJasher]

Pedantic didactics

I had to look those words up to see if they still meant what I thought they did. They do.

It would have taken a double compound, complex sentence to say what I did if I had not made use of an obscure vocabulary.

 

[BenJasher]

On a more serious note, a little closer to the track of this thread; I have to say that Jesus was a Man, and God in the flesh simultaneously, regardless of any conceived or misconceived disagreement. His being God on the one hand did not diminish or exagerate the fact that He was a man on the other, nor vice versa.
I believe the scriptures bring this out quite clearly.

 

[thessalonian]

We do know that he is Son of Man by his birth through Mary. But he is also God's only begotten son. Eternally begotten.

Psalm 2
7: I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.

Do the words, "today I have begotten you" suggest being eternally begotten?

Does the psalm say which day he was begotten? Why yes it does. TODAY! Get it. And yesterday was once today and the day before and 500,000 years ago there was a TODAY. The Son proceeds from the father eternally. But of course you will have a different interpretation and it will trump mine. So who is right? It is important.

 

[thessalonian]

God beget a man? That's like a man begetting an ant. Even worse.

This isn't hard to reconcile when God is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end; therefore he writes what He understands not what mankind does.

Jesus is God folks. Always was, always will be.

Jesus is what God defined as His Son MATTHEW 3:17 and MATTHEW 16:16-17...nothing more.

Are you infallibly certain about this. Does this kind of proof texting mean that you have an understanding, even though you claim above we cannot. All of scripture speaks of who Jesus is and yet you give us two verses that you say limit the definition of who he is. You speak as one with authority in declaring as you have above in a manner that you think trumps my statements. By what authority do you speak?

God gives understanding. God is the alpha and omega. You are right. Interestingly enough the scriptures speak of Jesus as the beginning and the end.

 

[mutzrein]

Thess - I gotta comment on this since it seems you want understanding.

God gives understanding. God is the alpha and omega. You are right. Interestingly enough the scriptures speak of Jesus as the beginning and the end.

Who was it that created all things? God.
And how did He create it? By His word.
Who or what is His Word? Jesus.

Through the Word of God (Jesus) have all things been created.

Who is it that God has given all authority under heaven and on earth? Jesus.
Is there anything not under Jesus authority. Yes.
Who or what is not under Jesus' authority? God.
Which means that Jesus, the one through whom all things were created is also going to be one who wraps it all up.

That makes Him, The Alpha and Omega, The Beginning and the End.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Who was it that created all things? God.
And how did He create it? By His word.
Who or what is His Word? Jesus.

And the Word was God.

 

[Klee shay]

God beget a man? That's like a man begetting an ant. Even worse.

This isn't hard to reconcile when God is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end; therefore he writes what He understands not what mankind does.

Jesus is God folks. Always was, always will be.

Jesus is what God defined as His Son MATTHEW 3:17 and MATTHEW 16:16-17...nothing more.

Are you infallibly certain about this. Does this kind of proof texting mean that you have an understanding, even though you claim above we cannot. All of scripture speaks of who Jesus is and yet you give us two verses that you say limit the definition of who he is. You speak as one with authority in declaring as you have above in a manner that you think trumps my statements. By what authority do you speak?

God gives understanding. God is the alpha and omega. You are right. Interestingly enough the scriptures speak of Jesus as the beginning and the end.

No trumping. Just sharing what is in the bible. When John baptises Jesus with water, God announces that Jesus is His son in whom he was well pleased. Do you deny this? If you don't deny this then why would you say I'm trying to trump you? Scripture is scripture. If God announces that Jesus is his Son then why does mankind continue to call Jesus, God?

Peter later verifies this fact when Jesus asked him who he thought Jesus was MATTHEW 16:16 and when Peter replies, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God," Jesus confirms that flesh and blood didn't reveal this to Peter but His Father which is in heaven.

Two clear testimonies in the bible (both from God) call Jesus His Son. Either we believe our Father in Heaven or we don't. God did not say to mankind that Jesus was God. As many lines as we try and draw towards that fact from scripture, you will not find God Himself declaring Jesus as Himself. Jesus was His beloved Son.

Now we could go to the Word way back before the world was created and call that Word, God - for this is contained in scripture; but as for Jesus the Son of man - God calls this man His Son. To contradict God's own testimony is dangerous I feel, and that's why I maintain that Jesus is God's only begotten Son.

The Word was with God and was God, only before the world was created. After the world was created however and the Word was born into flesh and blood; God named Him Jesus and called this Man His Son. To show our obedience we must obey what God declares as truth. Otherwise we are disobedient and do not seek after the things of God.

Of course if anyone can demonstrate any scripture I have missed where God declares Jesus something other than His Son, I will certainly listen with a willing heart.

 

[mutzrein]

+JMJ+

Who was it that created all things? God.
And how did He create it? By His word.
Who or what is His Word? Jesus.

And the Word was God.

FSW

I was hoping someone would want me to speak to that point. I have posted on the 'Word of God' and its meaning elsewhere. I have also offered in other threads to repost the same so I will make the offer again to repost. Just say the word :-?

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+


If you don't mind. I would like to hear your'e point of view about the Word of God.

Thanks for offering. 8-)

Fulton

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Do the words, "today I have begotten you" suggest being eternally begotten?

Bart Ehrman ("The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture") shows that "Today I have begotten thee" was the original text in Luke.3:22, (at Jesus' baptism) that is, that Jesus was God's Son by adoption as it were - he was CHOSEN. Later, scribes "corrected" this by substituting "You are my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased", so it would not violate the evolving deity of Christ doctrine. They needed him to be the Son of God by biological birth to supply the non-Jewish converts with a God who breeds and a "Godman" type saviour which would satisy the theological requirements of their pagan background. A fully human Jew who was only annointed/appointed the Son of God was not going to "sell" to the majority of Greeks/Romans.