Domestication of pigs

[tentex25]

my history professor is very big on criticizing the Bible and other religious texts. One of his lastest arguments was why Jews in the OT thought pigs as "unclean" to eat. His argument was loosely that pigs required too much care for people who lived in a dry part of the world. (being Mesopotamia at the time) Pigs required water...mud...and a lot of food, which was all not very plentiful at this time. his argument was that sense pigs required too much care and supplies that jewish law evolved to deem the animal as unclean almost like an excuse from their god not to raise pigs anymore. Anyone have any insight on this? Just thought this was interesting...my teacher tries to show how the Bible is false by showing how it evolved around common and obvious beliefs and practices of the time it was written.

 

[Guest]

Have you ever had a pig roast? Ever cook pork?

If you know anything about pork - you know the volitale nature of it and how it must be cooked to higher tempatures than regular meat to make sure that all the bacteria, etc has been killed.

The dietary laws not only showed obedience, but also practicality in that it kept the people safe. It was beneficial to avoid pork, etc - because they did not have ample refrigeration.

There is a real praticle side to the food laws of the OT.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Pigs, like pretty much everything else on the "Do not eat" list, are scavengers. They were created by God to eat garbage.

Scavengers = God's environmental filtering system.

Pigs, like many other scavengers, are gathered and fried up for dinner.

Results:

We have removed part of the ecological filtering system that God put in place (creating pollution problems)

We are eating the filters (creating health problems)

We are, by doing this, believing that we have a better idea than God, and have outsmarted Him. (Causing all kinds of other problems)

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Here is the link to an earlier discussion that we had on this topic, if you would like to know what everyone else had to say. Careful though, Vic is swinging a fish at people in there.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

 

[starbyfar]

Pigs, like pretty much everything else on the "Do not eat" list, are scavengers. They were created by God to eat garbage.

Scavengers = God's environmental filtering system.

Pigs, like many other scavengers, are gathered and fried up for dinner.

Results:

We have removed part of the ecological filtering system that God put in place (creating pollution problems)

We are eating the filters (creating health problems)

We are, by doing this, believing that we have a better idea than God, and have outsmarted Him. (Causing all kinds of other problems)

awesome explanation gabbylittleangel! i like the way you think/reason.

 

[Solo]

Pigs, like pretty much everything else on the "Do not eat" list, are scavengers. They were created by God to eat garbage.

Scavengers = God's environmental filtering system.

Pigs, like many other scavengers, are gathered and fried up for dinner.

Results:

We have removed part of the ecological filtering system that God put in place (creating pollution problems)

We are eating the filters (creating health problems)

We are, by doing this, believing that we have a better idea than God, and have outsmarted Him. (Causing all kinds of other problems)

Now a days, pigs eat what they are fed, and chickens eat what they are fed. Chickens will eat anything as well. In fact, chickens will peck through pig poop and eat whatever they deem good. But, I never hear anyone talk about Chicken eating habits. :

 

[starbyfar]

vegan here, so you wont find me eating chicken or pig.. gross. :-D

 

[Solo]

vegan here, so you wont find me eating chicken or pig.. gross. :-D

They are a lot better cooked, and smoked is out of this world! :-D

 

[mutzrein]

They are a lot better cooked, and smoked is out of this world! :-D

Do you roll your own Solo? :

And if they are out of this world - do you mean heaven or hell? :-?

 

[Solo]

Do you roll your own Solo? :

And if they are out of this world - do you mean heaven or hell? :-?

I love to dress a side of pork with onions, tomatoes, peppers, pineapples, spices, and homemade marinade inside layers and layers of heavy aluminum foil; place this ole porker in a hole in the ground, cover it with a piece of corragated metal (used for roofs and sides of outbuildings); cover the whole think with some dirt; build a bonfire on top and sing songs and visit all night. The next day, you dig up the ole porker and eat the tastiest, most tender piece of meat ever. That is a roll your own adventure that is wonderful and out of this world. If I didn't know better I would think that I was in heaven. The pig, however, thinks that he is in hell.

Smoked meats such as chicken and pork used to be a favorite of mine until I lost all sense of smell. Now all I have is the taste buds.

 

[mutzrein]

I love to dress a side of pork with onions, tomatoes, peppers, pineapples, spices, and homemade marinade inside layers and layers of heavy aluminum foil; place this ole porker in a hole in the ground, cover it with a piece of corragated metal (used for roofs and sides of outbuildings); cover the whole think with some dirt; build a bonfire on top and sing songs and visit all night. The next day, you dig up the ole porker and eat the tastiest, most tender piece of meat ever. That is a roll your own adventure that is wonderful and out of this world. If I didn't know better I would think that I was in heaven. The pig, however, thinks that he is in hell.

Smoked meats such as chicken and pork used to be a favorite of mine until I lost all sense of smell. Now all I have is the taste buds.

:-D I love it Solo - great sense of humor you have there friend

Actually - the native people of NZ (Maori) traditionally do a very similar thing to cook their food. Dig a pit. Put in meat (pig, lamb, chicken etc) and vegetables wrapped in everything from tinfoil to sacking cloth to broad leaves, some earth, place large rocks/stones on top and a bonfire. Takes a few hours all up but eaten the same day - hot and tasty !!

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Mutz & Solo,

While I usually appreciate your fun and games, the op was asking for Biblical insight, and direction in replying to an ungodly professor. It causes confusion when you come down on the side of the teacher who is trying to prove that the Bible is false.

Do ya'll ask God to bless it when you go to eat it?

Deu 14:8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.


**************

Tentex25,

The really cool thing about seeking God, is that you go beyond the thou shalt and the thou shalt not's. When you draw close to God, and become His friend, and seek His kingdom and His righteousness; then He begins to reveal the reasons for His commandments. It is then that you go beyond the list of rules (knowledge) and begin to grasp the whys (understanding) and then begin to walk in obedience (wisdom).

Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding.

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 

[Imagican]

Have you ever had a pig roast? Ever cook pork?

If you know anything about pork - you know the volitale nature of it and how it must be cooked to higher tempatures than regular meat to make sure that all the bacteria, etc has been killed.

The dietary laws not only showed obedience, but also practicality in that it kept the people safe. It was beneficial to avoid pork, etc - because they did not have ample refrigeration.

There is a real praticle side to the food laws of the OT.

Good stuff alone,

YES, the dietary laws were designed to PROTECT a realatively 'small' group of people that could have easily suffered 'greatly' by eating the WRONG things. Not only pork for it's natural tendency to be FULL of parasites, but seafood has a VERY short 'shelf-life' before and AFTER it has been cooked.

So, the laws were designed to protect THROUGH obedience. But AFTER the advent of Christ, these laws were rendered OBSOLETE. The people had BEEN fruitful and multiplied to the point that unclean food could have no longer threatned them. "For what God hath cleansed, let NO man call common''.

MEC
MEC

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

I marinade mine and slap the 'porker' in the trusty ole smoker. EVERYONE in the family, (as far away as Titusville), come in for these occasions. Usually slap a couple of chicken in there as well, (and we sometimes even have a glass of wine or a beer with our 'unclean meal').

gabby, I thank God for EVERY meal that I sit down to, (including pork and seafood). Our God is not a God of 'don't do it'. He IS a God of LOVE. And I, for one, do have a 'bit of love' for 'good pork'.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Sorry Gabbylittleangel but I took from your previous post that you wanted to know what others had to say.

Here is the link to an earlier discussion that we had on this topic, if you would like to know what everyone else had to say. Careful though, Vic is swinging a fish at people in there.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

The Israelites were not told that the unclean animals were God's filtration system, therefore, do not eat them. The Israelites were told that God's statutes were not to eat of the unclean animals. Isaiah spoke to the Israelites concerning these things very well. The covenant that God made with the Israelites still exists. I live in the covenant of God's grace through Jesus Christ, and there are no laws concerning what we should or should not eat. The Apostles wrote to the Christians at Antioch and told them to beware of those who tried to subvert their souls by telling them that they needed to keep the law. The rules that they directed the Christians at Antioch to follow were to abstain from meats offered to idols, to abstain from blood, to abstain from eating that which is strangled, and to abstain from fornication. Nothing was said about refraining from eating anything else.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Acts 15:22-29

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Tentex, perhaps you thought that we would all be in unity on this one. Sorry. May the Lord be with you in class. Blessings. :angel:

Sorry Gabbylittleangel but I took from your previous post that you wanted to know what others had to say.

Nah, I was offering the link for the op. He or she was interested in what we had to say (go figure :-D )

I think that I have mentioned this somewhere before, but I believe that nothing magic happened to pigs when Jesus died on the cross. If pigs are okay to eat on this side of the cross, then so are vultures, and those rats running around that New York City restaurant can be marinated and fried up as well. :o

It is because of the verses that you posted Solo, that I try not to force my convictions on others. I also like to keep in mind that it was eating things that God said not to eat that got Adam and Eve in trouble. It was through praying and studying the topic that I found a book that discussed how people who keep kosher are much healthier than those who don't, and it went into detail about all of the differences between clean and unclean animals. Even those who are not interested in such things around here will heed the warnings when there is a ban on clams and oysters. :roll:

I also find it interesting to look at the opinion that Jesus himself has of food. In these passages below, Jesus has the disciples gather up the bread and fish so that nothing would be wasted. (Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. )

On the other hand, Jesus has no problem with letting all of that pork be destroyed. I simply see a principal here. It is a bit of a contradiction not to waste the fish and bread, but let the pigs fly.

Mat 14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.
Mar 6:43 And they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments, and of the fishes.
Mar 8:19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
Mar 8:20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
Luk 9:17 And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskets.
Jhn 6:12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
Jhn 6:13 Therefore they gathered [them] together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.

Luk 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
Luk 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

I suppose the argument next is that Jesus let the demons enter the pigs before he died on the cross, not after....so....enjoy your dinner.
8-)

 

[Guest]

Gabby - I will agree wtih you that a Kosher diet is in fact healthier.

I will also take it one step further, and suggest that God's ideal diet, and the healhiest diet, is a vegetarian/vegan diet.

Gen 1:29-31 "Then God said 'Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast if the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every geen plant for food" ; at it was so. God saw all that He had made and behold, it was very good."

Notice that God says only the plants are given for food.

 

[Imagican]

alone,

don't 'do that' to people. This was what God spoke to man 'in the beginning'. But we also KNOW that animals WERE allowed, BY GOD, PREVIOUS to the time of Moses, For animals WERE offered for sacrifice by Abraham and Abraham ATE MEAT.

One need but READ The Bible to understand that. And in the NEW TESTAMENT, we have Peter's vision. What God hath CLEANSED, let NO MAN call common, (unclean).

And worshiping a 'diet' is NO different than 'worshiping ANY other 'false god'. Go out and 'work your but off' and you can eat pretty much anything you choose and AS MUCH AS YOU CHOOSE. That along with periodic fasting and there would be NO NEED for a 'specific diet'.

Pork was ONLY considered 'unclean' to the Hebrews/Jews. Some others LATER adopted such views, but the 'food laws' were NOT given to 'mankind' in general BUT to a SPECIFIC group of people known as God's 'chosen'.

So, we were NOT given the 'teeth' of an OMNIVORE to eat ONLY vegetables. We were NOT given the digestive system of an OMNIVORE to ONLY eat vegetables. We are FREE to eat what we will so long as we eat it in 'thanksgiving'. And according to some Pentecostals, they believe that they can even eat that which is poisonous without detriment to the body, (me personally, I'll 'pass' on the poison).

And the heading states 'domesticated swine'. The method of 'raising pigs' in todays world is MUCH more sanitary than ANYTHING that those of the past were capable. Sterilization, refrigeration, cooking methods, etc....These were things IMPOSSIBLE to produce at the time that the food laws were given to the Hebrews/Jews.

Some seem to like to have it 'both ways'. They want to BE Christians but LIVE like Jews. You CAN'T have it 'both ways'. If you choose to live 'by the LAWS, shouldn't you be BOUND TO THEM ALL? Yet the food laws were only a SMALL 'part' of THE LAW.

Women were UNCLEAN for a MAJOR PART OF THE MONTH. Unable to even TOUCH things without making them too unclean. NO WORK on the Sabbath, (remember the man that was STONED TO DEATH for gathering sticks on the Sabbath?).Touching MANY reptiles made one unclean' until they went through cleansing ritual. There were TONS of laws that many seem to have NEVER READ ABOUT. And I know of NO CHRISTIANS that follow each and every one of these laws. Why is that. Pick and choose?

There ARE NO LONGER FOOD LAWS. So long as everything is eaten in thanks to God. BUT, beware, if you CHOOSE to 'believe' that it is WRONG to 'eat pork', then you BETTER NOT. For what you believe in your 'heart' IS what you will be judged by. If you believe that you MUST eat ONLY vegetables, be 'true to yourself'.

But, for the REST of us, bodily health means LITTLE to those that are secure in the FACT that this life is a 'temporary PLACE'. The amount of 'time' that we spend here is IRRELEVANT so long as we accomplish that which we were placed here to accomplish. Cling NOT to this life but cherish the one to come. Rest 'ASSURED' in the faith that this body is NOTHING other than a 'shell' and it WILL die when IT IS TIME.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Pigs, like pretty much everything else on the "Do not eat" list, are scavengers. They were created by God to eat garbage.

Scavengers = God's environmental filtering system.

Pigs, like many other scavengers, are gathered and fried up for dinner.

Results:

We have removed part of the ecological filtering system that God put in place (creating pollution problems)

We are eating the filters (creating health problems)

We are, by doing this, believing that we have a better idea than God, and have outsmarted Him. (Causing all kinds of other problems)

While what you offer here 'sounds good', the truth of the matter is that we RAISE the 'pigs that we EAT'. The shellfish part I will partially agree with. We have certainly OVER harvested much.

But don't forget what PAUL stated concerning diet. We are NOT to judge another by WHAT they eat or DON'T eat. I judge NO ONE by their diet. I simply attempt to 'point out' that one's personal decision has LITTLE if ANYTHING to do with 'truth' according to scripture. We HAVE been given FREE REIGN as far as WHAT WE EAT is concerned. Health NO health, Regardless, we are NO LONGER bound to 'food laws' unless we CHOOSE to be. And WHY anyone would is beyond my comprehension other than that perhaps they were 'taught this', (like reading other people's OPINIONS concerning THEIR beliefs). The TRUTH is that we are NOT bound by these laws.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabby - I will agree wtih you that a Kosher diet is in fact healthier.

I will also take it one step further, and suggest that God's ideal diet, and the healhiest diet, is a vegetarian/vegan diet.

Gen 1:29-31 "Then God said 'Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast if the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every geen plant for food" ; at it was so. God saw all that He had made and behold, it was very good."

Notice that God says only the plants are given for food.

If only everything were as it was before the fall. I have to agree with Imagican, (eww :-D ) that things changed after the fall. God has a lot to say about eating meat, what kinds of meat to eat, and what to avoid. The ideal vegetarian diet...well even that would be grown in the ground that was cursed.

We can not go back to Eden. We must move forward towards the marriage supper of the lamb.