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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Dr. Timothy LeHaye
- Thread starter Pard
- Start date
sojourner4Christ
Member
Ask the Holy Spirit for the wisdom you seek and then read the Word of God (i.e. the Holy Bible, AV - Authorized Version).
freeway
Member
Pard, if you believe in pre trib rapture then he is a great read, but seems to me most here are Post trib or just don't know. I myself am a pre trib and I've read alot of his books.. interesting. but of course everyone has a different opinion of end times.
I would also say pray, and ask God for his wisdom before you read any book written by man...
I would also say pray, and ask God for his wisdom before you read any book written by man...
Yup, that's about it, LeHaye is a pretribber, so If that's what you believe then he's a good read.Pard, if you believe in pre trib rapture then he is a great read, but seems to me most here are Post trib or just don't know. I myself am a pre trib and I've read alot of his books.. interesting. but of course everyone has a different opinion of end times.
I would also say pray, and ask God for his wisdom before you read any book written by man...
I'm a post tribulation believer because I don't see how anyone can get a rapture BEFORE the resurrection out of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 & 17.
It clearly states that the resurrection happens first, and then AFTER THAT we who are still alive and are left...
and these two statements come after verse 15 which contains this statement;
...will CERTAINLY NOT PRECEED those who have fallen asleep.
Believing in a pre-trib rapture takes people down a road that has to turn the second coming into a two phased event in which these verses get distorted even further. Pre-trib thinking makes the Lord out to be a liar as well; Matthew 24:21 (NIV)For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again. 22 If thise days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Daniel and Revelation both clearly state the anti-Christ will persecute the saints, and that the elect must remain firmly established in the faith with patience and ENDURANCE.
I don't have to twist scripture to understand and back up a post trib rapture, I don't need a two phased second coming because there's only one. I don't need to try and claim these statement pertain to the 144,000 instead of the church. I don't have to worry about finding out I've been "left behind" as LeHaye propagates. My faith won't be shaken, I won't be wondering if I misunderstood scripture and then begin to wonder what else I don't understand correctly.
Pre-tribbers have a lot of sorting out to do because they believed it in the first place.
I met a lot of new believers who supposedly gave their lives to the Lord AFTER reading the Left Behind series; they turned to Christ for completely selfish reasons, to avoid persecution and tribulation, which is the OPPOSITE of what the Lord said we could expect in following Him.
watchman F
Member
Absolutely not, he is as far off from the truth as you can get.
P.S. Did you loose the PMs I sent you before the change?
Pard
Member
I lost the words, but I still remember them.
There is a book that presents all three views on rapture/tribulation arrangement, I think I may buy it and see what each has to say and also pray to God for guidance on it.
I will know which is the real one based on literalness, so it shouldn't be hard.
There is a book that presents all three views on rapture/tribulation arrangement, I think I may buy it and see what each has to say and also pray to God for guidance on it.
I will know which is the real one based on literalness, so it shouldn't be hard.
watchman F
Member
Yes I agree you should read through that book. I believe it has all three cases and the rebutals against them as well.
Real quick with two passages I can show you the post trib rapture.
#1 The bible says the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
#2 The bible says the rapture is at the coming of Christ
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
1+2=3 if the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and the rapture is ta the coming of christ then that places the rapture after the Tribulation as well.
Pretribbers claim that at the rapture Jesus comes in peace to get the Church and at the 2nd coming He come in war to destroy the wicked, and that these two event happe 7 years apart. I ccan show you scripture that literally say they happen on the same day.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
watchman F
Member
lol..
An amillennialist does not believe in the Millennium at all.
A Historicist or historical premillinnialist believes in the post trib premillennial return of Christ/resurrection of the just/ rapture, it is called historical because it is the teachings of the apostles and their disciples, therefore historical, and more than likely the truth, it is also IMO the belief that lines up with scripture.
A dispinsationalist believe the teaching of John Darby and Schofield, it is an ilaborate teaching basically saying that God deals with human diferently through a bunch of different dispensations. They are the pretrib believers, believe a new dispensation starts at the rapture, that are also premillennialist.
Idealism is not an endtime position, niether is liberalism
Postmillennialist believe Jesus returns after the millennium, most do not believe the millennium is a literal 1,000 years, also they believe we are now in the Millennium and has been since the Cross.
Preterist believe that prophecy especially Revelation and matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 A.D.
Premilleinialist believe Jesus returns before the Millennium post trib and pretrib believers are bith premillennialist.
Futurist believe that the 2nd coming and the prophexy relating to it is still to come in the future and has not yet been fulfilled. all pre and post millennialist are futurist.
Edit for correction: Hisorical is the belief that prophecy if unfoldiong throughout history. Not the same a historical premillennialism as I stated earlier.
Historical premillennialism is the view of the apostles, and the disciple the view held by the first century church and in my opinion the view o that lines up with scripture and is that of a post trib, premillennial return of Christ and resurrection of the just/rapture at that time.
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freeway
Member
Pard,,, I not going to throw all kinds of words or quotes at you... But I say only this.. Pray before following "any man" words of so call wisdom. Look at both side of the issue, then pray again.. If I tell you to stay away form post tribers and only listen to pre tribers, then I've done you an injustice. Like I said, I'm a pre triber and I studied both side of the issue and to me Pre trib is the logical answer.. But don't just take my word for it search the scriptures... and pray pray pray...
seek God's leading in all things and you will prosper... freeway
seek God's leading in all things and you will prosper... freeway
Face it watchman F, we're not going to get through to them. They also disregard all the verses that clearly state the anti-Christ will persecure the church, over come the saints and conquer them, and ALL of Jesus' comments about the faithful needing to be patient and ENDURE.
I have resigned myself to KNOWING it will take the tribulation and their BEING HERE to wake them up.
Oh, and lets not forget the Great Commission, apparently that's been reassigned to ? um, um, anyone? anyone?
BUELLER!
Oh, that's right, he took the day off too!
freeway
Member
Pard...
Watchman and Thranduil are trying their best to turn this into a debate. But that thread is already goin on..
Pard again, just pray and ask the Lord to reveal to you his wisdom on this. Like I said this is not a salvation issue.. And as far as the pre triber falling asleep that is just a lie... noff said..:yes
Watchman and Thranduil are trying their best to turn this into a debate. But that thread is already goin on..
Pard again, just pray and ask the Lord to reveal to you his wisdom on this. Like I said this is not a salvation issue.. And as far as the pre triber falling asleep that is just a lie... noff said..:yes
Lets look at the book in an untwisted way.
Isaiah 24 backwards
From the Millennial Kingdom back through revelation
23 The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders, gloriously.
22 They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon; they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.
21 In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.
20 The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind; so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion that it falls—never to rise again.
19 The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is thoroughly shaken.
18 Whoever flees at the sound of terror will fall into a pit; whoever climbs out of the pit will be caught in a snare. The floodgates of the heavens are opened, the foundations of the earth shake.
To the times of trouble after great joy
17 Terror and pit and snare await you, O people of the earth.
16 From the ends of the earth we hear singing: "Glory to the Righteous One." But I said, "I waste away, I waste away! Woe to me! The treacherous betray! With treachery the treacherous betray!"
15 Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD; exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea.
14 They raise their voices, they shout for joy; from the west they acclaim the LORD's majesty.
Back through the description of the devastation and fire judgment of Earth
13 So will it be on the earth and among the nations, as when an olive tree is beaten, or as when gleanings are left after the grape harvest.
12 The city is left in ruins, its gate is battered to pieces.
11 In the streets they cry out for wine; all joy turns to gloom, all gaiety is banished from the earth.
10 The ruined city lies desolate; the entrance to every house is barred.
9 No longer do they drink wine with a song; the beer is bitter to its drinkers.
8 The gaiety of the tambourines is stilled, the noise of the revelers has stopped, the joyful harp is silent.
7 The new wine dries up and the vine withers; all the merrymakers groan.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth's inhabitants are burnedup,and very few are left.
(2nd Thessalonians 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:)
5 The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.
4 The earth dries up and withers, the world languishes and withers, the exalted of the earth languish.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and totally plundered. The LORD has spoken this word.
2 it will be the same for priest as for people, for master as for servant, for mistress as for maid, for seller as for buyer, for borrower as for lender, for debtor as for creditor.
1 See, the LORD is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it; he will ruin its face and scatter its inhabitants-
Isaiah 24 backwards
From the Millennial Kingdom back through revelation
23 The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders, gloriously.
22 They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon; they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.
21 In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.
20 The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind; so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion that it falls—never to rise again.
19 The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is thoroughly shaken.
18 Whoever flees at the sound of terror will fall into a pit; whoever climbs out of the pit will be caught in a snare. The floodgates of the heavens are opened, the foundations of the earth shake.
To the times of trouble after great joy
17 Terror and pit and snare await you, O people of the earth.
16 From the ends of the earth we hear singing: "Glory to the Righteous One." But I said, "I waste away, I waste away! Woe to me! The treacherous betray! With treachery the treacherous betray!"
15 Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD; exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea.
14 They raise their voices, they shout for joy; from the west they acclaim the LORD's majesty.
Back through the description of the devastation and fire judgment of Earth
13 So will it be on the earth and among the nations, as when an olive tree is beaten, or as when gleanings are left after the grape harvest.
12 The city is left in ruins, its gate is battered to pieces.
11 In the streets they cry out for wine; all joy turns to gloom, all gaiety is banished from the earth.
10 The ruined city lies desolate; the entrance to every house is barred.
9 No longer do they drink wine with a song; the beer is bitter to its drinkers.
8 The gaiety of the tambourines is stilled, the noise of the revelers has stopped, the joyful harp is silent.
7 The new wine dries up and the vine withers; all the merrymakers groan.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth's inhabitants are burnedup,and very few are left.
(2nd Thessalonians 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:)
5 The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.
4 The earth dries up and withers, the world languishes and withers, the exalted of the earth languish.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and totally plundered. The LORD has spoken this word.
2 it will be the same for priest as for people, for master as for servant, for mistress as for maid, for seller as for buyer, for borrower as for lender, for debtor as for creditor.
1 See, the LORD is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it; he will ruin its face and scatter its inhabitants-
Vic C.
Member
Hey, I'll throw my hat in. :D
If your position is futurism, try George E. Ladd (historical premillennialism); if you prefer some historicism, try Issac Newtom and if you are into some partial preterism and the historical perspective of peophecy, read Adam Clarke's commentaries.
The latter two is how I lean.
Vic C.
Member
This is a perfect place to start a study. No one can make a sound decision unless they understand the basic positions presented through the years.
Try this for starters:
http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0020.html
Gary omits historicism, so try here:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/CriticalArticles/baxter-irvin_ca.html
http://web.me.com/martinsimpson1/General_Introduction/Methods_of_Interpretation_2.html
A word about literalism; beware of ANY position that changes the original meaning of the context to suit a particular belief. :nod
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watchman F
Member
I appriciate what you say Thranduil, and understand where you are coming from. However the thing is Pard is sincere in his question, and only care about what he gets out of my post. Those pretribbers that have hardened their hearts to the truth, I am not even speaking to them, nor do i care what they think about the truth i am conveying to Pard
watchman F
Member
I have no intension on debating you about anything freeway, as I do not want to cast my pearls to the swine. However I will speak truth into Pard's life whether you want him to know the truth or not.