Growth Early Church History

[for_his_glory]

Jim,

Here is another one of the church fathers to support worship on Sunday:

Cyprian (ca. AD 200-258):

'For because the eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, was to be that on which the Lord should rise again, and should quicken us, and give us circumcision of the spirit, the eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, and the Lord's day, went before in the figure; which figure ceased when by and by the truth came, and spiritual circumcision was given to us' (Epistle 58.4).

Oz

There is so much wrong with your Epistle 58:4 that man wrote just like all the writings of the 1st century Roman Catholic church leaders as all their writings are not inspired by the Holy Spirit to write as only the Apostles and Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write letters to the Church being the body of Christ and not a building made by hands that they established by guidance of the Holy Spirit. Below are just three examples of Epistle 58:4 that are in error of the scriptures and then a full detail of the Sabbath being Saturday and Jesus could not have been risen on Sunday morning. Your 1st Century fathers changed the day of rest being the Sabbath on Saturday to that of Sunday, but that is another topic and probably would go against the Tos rules of this forum.
Faith of the Church!............ sorry our faith is in Christ Jesus
Our decree!.................... Not a mans decree, but that of what God decrees
Children being baptized!................. How can a baby repent!


Sunday is not the day that Christ was risen from the tomb as taught by your so called 1st century fathers.

Hebrew weekly Sabbath started Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown. This was a different Sabbath called a high Sabbath not like the weekly Sabbath. This high Sabbath began the first day through the last day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread from Nisan 15 to Nisan 21. This was the Sabbath where Jesus had to be removed from the cross before the Feast of Unleavened Bread began on Nisan 15. Passover is annual and not a weekly Sabbath as it was the day of preparation for the High Sabbath that is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and no one was to do any labor on that day as it was a day of holy assembling. Luke 23:52-54; John 19:31, 42; Leviticus 23:6, 7

Seeing that this was a High Sabbath that started on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread it would have been Tuesday Nisan 13 that Jesus ate supper with His disciples being the last supper, not the Passover Seder that many teach it to be then went to pray in Gethsemane and was arrested and brought before the Sanhedrin. Wednesday morning, Nisan 14, Jesus was brought before Pilate who passed sentence on Jesus according to Roman law was scourged and nailed to the cross about the third hour and died at the ninth hour about the same time after noon when the Passover lambs were killed, Exodus 12:1-6.

Jesus was laid in the borrowed tomb on Wednesday evening, Nisan 14, before High Sabbath began at sundown making it Nisan 15. Jesus laid in the tomb from Nisan 14 until sometime before sunrise on Saturday Nisan 17 being the weekly Sabbath that started at sundown on Nisan 16 as this would have been three days and three nights fulfilling what he spoke in Matthew 12:40 and Mark 14:58. This did not violate the Torah that says no one is to work on the Sabbath, but Jesus being risen from the grave was not work, but Jesus being the Lord of the Sabbath, Mark 2:23-28.

 

[for_his_glory]

Seems an obvious 'yes' answer is required.

The Oxford dictionaries (2016. s v catechesis) give the definition of catechesis as, 'religious instruction given with a catechism in preparation for Christian baptism or confirmation'. Its origin is 'mid 18th century: via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek katēkhēsis "oral instruction"'.

Therefore, the assumption would be that the person giving the catechesis would be conversant in Christian teaching.

Oz

Did not John the baptist say baptism was for repentance of our sin, Matthew 3:1-3. The water is symbolic of the outward appearance of washing away of sin that would be evidenced later of the blood of Christ and His finished work on the cross. Jesus required of Himself to be baptized even though He was without sin. As far as catechism that the 1st century fathers incorporated into their church teach leaves out Gods second commandment especially in the Nicene Creed.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Should we remember the Lord once a year or every time we eat?

I think the early church, which were believers meeting in home and probably having some food every time they meet, the memory of what Christ occurred at every meeting. It was more like having a bible study than filling an auditorium. More like 13 guys eating together in an upper room than a concert with a speaker. More like friends having an intimate meal than a religious tradition being kept. More like a memory than a memorial.

 

[K2CHRIST]

The Nicene Creed is good to help keep controversy out and unity in our faith. However it was a bunch of bishops voting on issues and not the Word of God. However according to the Scriptures (what we call the Word of God) we need to seek the Lord Jesus Christ (who is called the Word of God by the Scriptures but who is not the Scriptures).

I believe we need to remember the Lord regularly, not once a year but perhaps every time we eat and get together with others. We should know a little about the Nicene Creed, but it is not the Nicene Creed we are looking to so if something didn't get mentioned in it I don't see that as too important, and as for the things mentioned in it, they are not that controversial are they?

What I really see in the early church, which is emphasized by the fact that there were meeting in Nicea, was that early Christians were falling away from seeking Jesus Christ and starting to argue among themselves. So they decided to vote on how to do things and what was right, instead of seek the voice of the Lord and not argue so much.

So I think we can learn a lot from the study of history. You can see how people want to fight over trivial things and God wants us to remember Him so that we might turn from our ways and get instructions from Him. He went to the cross and ate of that bread and drank of that cup because we don't listen to Him. I think we need to remember that a lot more, but perhaps someone wants that remembered less like in a memorial for someone who died and is gone. But Jesus is alive, not dead, so let us not remember Him as if He was, let us remember Him as if He is with us.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Nicene Creed is good to help keep controversy out and unity in our faith. However it was a bunch of bishops voting on issues and not the Word of God. However according to the Scriptures (what we call the Word of God) we need to seek the Lord Jesus Christ (who is called the Word of God by the Scriptures but who is not the Scriptures).

I believe we need to remember the Lord regularly, not once a year but perhaps every time we eat and get together with others. We should know a little about the Nicene Creed, but it is not the Nicene Creed we are looking to so if something didn't get mentioned in it I don't see that as too important, and as for the things mentioned in it, they are not that controversial are they?

What I really see in the early church, which is emphasized by the fact that there were meeting in Nicea, was that early Christians were falling away from seeking Jesus Christ and starting to argue among themselves. So they decided to vote on how to do things and what was right, instead of seek the voice of the Lord and not argue so much.

So I think we can learn a lot from the study of history. You can see how people want to fight over trivial things and God wants us to remember Him so that we might turn from our ways and get instructions from Him. He went to the cross and ate of that bread and drank of that cup because we don't listen to Him. I think we need to remember that a lot more, but perhaps someone wants that remembered less like in a memorial for someone who died and is gone. But Jesus is alive, not dead, so let us not remember Him as if He was, let us remember Him as if He is with us.

You make some very good points as we need to be seeking what Christ has already spoken and our communion (not the bread and wine) needs to be with the Lord everyday as you said Jesus is alive as so is His word. It truly doesn't matter how often we take of the bread (His flesh) and the wine (His blood), but to know it is a memorial as we remember always His finished work on the cross. We celebrate His birth, but once a year and at Passover we celebrate what His death means to us as we partake in His death that we will have life eternal with Him.

 

[OzSpen]

Which Church are you speaking about as being the 1st Century Church. The Apostles did not establish the Catholic Church, Methodist Church, Presbyterian, Baptist ect. ect. What the Apostles set up in their mission trips were Churches not made by hand, but by the teachings of Christ alone for there were no written by-laws, Nicene Creed, rituals and so forth. The Church being the true body of Christ met in each others home and in many cases did so in secrecy so the Roman Government would not see their gatherings and persecute them to death.

Nonetheless, there were identifiable churches: The church at Rome, Corinthian church, Galatian church, Ephesian church, Laodicean church, etc. So, in my understanding, the first century church involved churches in various locations across the evangelised world of the first century. They probably had little organised structure with by-laws. However, we do know they had doctrinal regulations, otherwise there would be no point in warning about false teachers (Gal 5:7-12 ESV) and false prophets (1 John 4:1-6 ESV).

I have no difficulty in understanding a group of local churches in various countries being called the church of the first century.

What does the church of the 21st century look like? It includes multiple millions of congregations, about 41,000 Christian denominations & organizations, in probably all countries of the world.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Nonetheless, there were identifiable churches: The church at Rome, Corinthian church, Galatian church, Ephesian church, Laodicean church, etc. So, in my understanding, the first century church involved churches in various locations across the evangelised world of the first century. They probably had little organised structure with by-laws. However, we do know they had doctrinal regulations, otherwise there would be no point in warning about false teachers (Gal 5:7-12 ESV) and false prophets (1 John 4:1-6 ESV).

I have no difficulty in understanding a group of local churches in various countries being called the church of the first century.

What does the church of the 21st century look like? It includes multiple millions of congregations, about 41,000 Christian denominations & organizations, in probably all countries of the world.

Oz

God did and still does have problems with many of the Churches as we can see in Revelations and will spew some of them out of His mouth like that of the Church in Pergamos that teach a different doctrine. God has somewhat against all of them and gives them warnings except the Church of Philadelphia which needs to be our example of Gods true Church. God is not about a mans religion, but is all about a personal relationship between we and His son Christ Jesus.

 

[Malachi]

Should we remember the Lord once a year or every time we eat?

The Lord's Supper was observed weekly, and many Christians still observe it weekly.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

So do you understand the doctrine of the Trinity is taught in the Bible?

Oz

OF course, though not in so many words. Before we were all connected to the internet where there are free Bible reference sites and before we all got computers and could buy Bible reference software, I did a study by taking a Strong's Concordance and, beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation, looked up every usage of God, Lord Son, and Spirit. (And related words) It took a couple of months to complete. What I found was that God as Trinity is inescapable. The Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God; and they are all the one God.

But the word "Trinity", like the word "catechesis" is not found in scripture.

That's why we have teologians; to make up wonderful words and to argue about exactly what they mean.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

OF course, though not in so many words. Before we were all connected to the internet where there are free Bible reference sites and before we all got computers and could buy Bible reference software, I did a study by taking a Strong's Concordance and, beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation, looked up every usage of God, Lord Son, and Spirit. (And related words) It took a couple of months to complete. What I found was that God as Trinity is inescapable. The Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God; and they are all the one God.

But the word "Trinity", like the word "catechesis" is not found in scripture.

That's why we have teologians; to make up wonderful words and to argue about exactly what they mean.

jim

What a job that must have been! I found it time consuming, even with the help of the Internet, that led to my writing this article in support of the Trinity, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?

 

[Jim Parker]

What a job that must have been! I found it time consuming, even with the help of the Internet, that led to my writing this article in support of the Trinity, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?

I saved your article.

 

[OzSpen]

I saved your article.

Jim,

Thanks mate. I hope it is helpful at some point in your journey in the Lord.

Oz

 

[Radagast]

Sunday is not the day that Christ was risen from the tomb

Yes it was, and the people who spoke to the witnesses knew that.

 

[brewmama]

Should we remember the Lord once a year or every time we eat?

I think the early church, which were believers meeting in home and probably having some food every time they meet, the memory of what Christ occurred at every meeting. It was more like having a bible study than filling an auditorium. More like 13 guys eating together in an upper room than a concert with a speaker. More like friends having an intimate meal than a religious tradition being kept. More like a memory than a memorial.

To believe that , which you admit is just what you think, is to ignore all the history of the early Church. It was a liturgy that included the Eucharist.

 

[brewmama]

Which Church are you speaking about as being the 1st Century Church. The Apostles did not establish the Catholic Church, Methodist Church, Presbyterian, Baptist ect. ect. What the Apostles set up in their mission trips were Churches not made by hand, but by the teachings of Christ alone for there were no written by-laws, Nicene Creed, rituals and so forth. The Church being the true body of Christ met in each others home and in many cases did so in secrecy so the Roman Government would not see their gatherings and persecute them to death.

Cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

As oft means as we do in an act of memorial of the observance of the finished works of Christ on the cross. A memorial is usually done once a year as we take Christ communion on the anniversary of His death on Passover day. Originally the first day of the week called the Sabbath was from sundown Friday night to sundown Saturday night. It was the Roman Catholic Church that changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

No it wasn't. Well, unless you are saying that the Roman Catholic Church was part of the early Church, which of course it was.

And the early Church was all one Church, and under 5 main Patriarchates, (Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and later Constantinople) up until the time that Rome split off from everyone else in the Great Schism, in 1054.

 

[OzSpen]

T
Sunday is not the day that Christ was risen from the tomb as taught by your so called 1st century fathers.

It's a bit late to tell me of that.

‘Now after the Sabbath, towards the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it’ (Matt 28:1-2 ESV).

Are you saying Jesus was not raised from the dead on the first day of the week?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

To believe that , which you admit is just what you think, is to ignore all the history of the early Church. It was a liturgy that included the Eucharist.

Where do I find that liturgy in the New Testament revelation?

 

[for_his_glory]

It's a bit late to tell me of that.

‘Now after the Sabbath, towards the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it’ (Matt 28:1-2 ESV).

Are you saying Jesus was not raised from the dead on the first day of the week?

Oz

No, but that is how a certain Gentile religion years ago changed it to Sunday as the Sabbath was always on Saturday starting Friday night at sundown and ending Saturday night at sundown. BTW I am a Gentile grafted into the branch.

 

[Jim Parker]

There is so much wrong with your Epistle 58:4 that man wrote just like all the writings of the 1st century Roman Catholic church leaders as all their writings are not inspired by the Holy Spirit

Apparently, you are ignorant of the fact that there was no 1st century Roman Catholic Church.

Sunday is not the day that Christ was risen from the tomb as taught by your so called 1st century fathers.

No it is the day He rose from the tomb according to your inerrant, infallible, Sola Scriptura.
Mar 16:1-2 (RSV) And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Mar 16:5-6 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe; and they were amazed. And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here; see the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
The "first day of the week" is the day after the Sabbath. It is SUNDAY. Your Bible says that Jesus rose on Sunday.

 

[for_his_glory]

Apparently, you are ignorant of the fact that there was no 1st century Roman Catholic Church.

No it is the day He rose from the tomb according to your inerrant, infallible, Sola Scriptura.
Mar 16:1-2 (RSV) And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen.
Mar 16:5-6 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe; and they were amazed. And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here; see the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
The "first day of the week" is the day after the Sabbath. It is SUNDAY. Your Bible says that Jesus rose on Sunday.

I know there were no 1st Century Roman Catholic Churches. None of the 1st Century Churches even had denominational or non-denominational Churches like we have today. The seven Churches of Revelations need to be our example that all Gods true Church needs to be that of the Church of Philadelphia. The Sabbath that Jesus was risen on was called a High Sabbath which is different from the Saturday Sabbath as I already explained that in post #21. You might want to look up the difference between Sabbath and High Sabbath as they are not the same.