Bible Study Election / Chosen / Predestined

[JohnD]

When one accepts what God is saying about Israel / Judah, all these other theologies fall neatly into place. Akin to accepting what the Bible teaches about the 70th Week of Daniel (that it is two 3.5 year tribulations rather than on 7 year tribulation) all the eschatologies fall neatly into place.

There is physical Israel / Judah (PIJ)
There is spirit Israel / Judah (SIJ)

Determining which a particular passage is referring to is the key. For example:

Genesis 22:17 (NASB95)
17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

(SIJ) stars of the heavens
(PIJ) sand by the sea

Genesis 15:5 (NASB95)
5And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

Genesis 32:12 (NASB95)
12“For You said, ‘I will surely prosper you and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which is too great to be numbered.’ ”

Chosen / elect of this world = PIJ
Chosen / elect of heaven = SIJ

The scripture drives the point (and this key to unlocking the prophecies) even further into the Bible texts...

Galatians 4:21–31 (NASB95)
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

 

[JohnD]

Esau had 12 son
Jacob had 12 sons

the spirit Jews are the one in the (holy) land
the physical Jews are the ones in the wilderness

clues like these open prophetic scripture in ways that will astound and amaze you!

 

[JohnD]

Other examples of equating physical Israel (especially when in idolatry) is:

Revelation 11:8 (NASB95)
8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

So passages that are initially about other nations / people in ancient times (even future times) also apply to physical Israel (when guilty of the same sins). In this case spiritual adultery (being the vehicle of the Antichrist):

Daniel 9:27 (AV)
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And he {the Beast} shall confirm the {holy / mosaic} covenant with many {the world} for one week {seven years}: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease {renege on this covenant}, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate {Matthew 24:15}.

 

[JohnD]

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When the beast arrives (dominating the PIJ "standing on the sand by the sea" Revelation 13:1) he will blaspheme Jesus and persecute Christians (Revelation 13:3-10) for 3.5 years while affirming the Old Covenant and building the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem. The Christians will be hunted down and beheaded (which is what the mark 666 is all about, tracking down the one people who will not receive the mark).

And all that mark has to be is:

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** Footnote: this is not to be construed as antisemitic nor to instill antisemitism in anyone. We are to love and assist our Jewish brethren till the very end (even if and when it costs us everything in this life).

Romans 11:28 (AV)
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

Jesus wept over Jerusalem (Luke 19:41-44) he was not angry or indignant. He loves the Jewish people and so should we. These events and their abuse / misuse by the Antichrist simply must needs be (as have all evils since the dawn of time due to our ability to have choice).

 

[JohnD]

In the middle of the 70th Week, Christians will be believed to be extinct. 3.5 years of beheadings, being unable to even buy food etc. will force believers in to such deep hiding that when the rapture takes place the sudden disappearance of so few who survive to that point will go unnoticed. And the Beast will have already reneged on his covenant with PIJ and reverted to the plains of Shinar (Babylon) which is why the very end time prophecies are about Babylon. Then the Jews will become the refuseniks the Christians had been (which prompts the Armageddon campaign).

When once for all the world at the hand of the False Messiah assembles to rid the earth of the Judeo-Christian "cancer" or "blight" as evil sees it.

And as a very last resort, the few PIJ that remain alive will cry out to the true Messiah Jesus with the Hosanna prophecy (hosha nah = save now).
Jesus own name contains the same root for save (hosha in his Hebrew name Yehoshua). And he will come down with his saints (SIJ) and wipe out the 200 million man armies of the world. This is the point of the entire 70th Week of Daniel, to get PIJ to choose Jesus.

 

[Sinthesis]

You're right. The point of the entire 70th week of Daniel was to get PIJ to choose Jesus. After the 70th week's conclusion, marked by the stoning of Stephen, the gospel was sent to the Gentiles.

 

[JohnD]

Can we not derail this into a Preterism vs Futurism argument?

 

[Sinthesis]

Esau had 12 son
Jacob had 12 sons

the spirit Jews are the one in the (holy) land
the physical Jews are the ones in the wilderness

clues like these open prophetic scripture in ways that will astound and amaze you!

This example doesn't work so well. Jacob left the promised land to acquire his family, property etc., while Esau stayed in the promised land and took Canaanite wives to irritate his folks.

 

[Brother Mike]

Can we not derail this into a Preterism vs Futurism argument?

I am trying to follow this. Your chart has Rev 12:17 as a time of tribulation, so I am assuming this is a preterist point of view?

 

[JohnD]

I am a futurist.

 

[ezrider]

Esau had 12 son
Jacob had 12 sons

the spirit Jews are the one in the (holy) land
the physical Jews are the ones in the wilderness

You are actually backwards with what you listed. The Spiritual Israel, or the Spiritual Jew is the one in the wilderness. The physical Jew, or those who would claim to be a Jew by blood and by birth are the ones who are trying to posses the holy land. Scratch that: They are the ones who are trying to occupy the land of Palestine. I would not call it the holy land in my mind, because the only thing that made the land holy was the presence of the Lord in the land. Whether they carried Him around in the Ark or they came before the glory of the Lord in the Temple, it was the presence of the Lord that made the land holy.

Galatians 4:21:27
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Revelation 12:13-14
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The Spiritual Jew is of Zion, which is mother of us all. She is the women given wings that she might fly into the wilderness where she is nourished for some period of time from the face of the serpent.

If I could point out one thing that you might consider, because it appears evident to me that you place a lot of emphasis on the "Jewish" peoples, and that mostly on the physical representation. You are watching a physical land, you are watching for a physical temple, and your prophecy focuses only on the tribe of Judah and the southern Kingdom of the Jews (Judah and Benjamin); But you have largely ignored the prophecy concerning Joseph and his sons, and the northern Kingdom of Israel (comprised of the rest of the tribes).

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, the northern kingdom that was destroyed and the peoples scattered abroad by the Assyrians. The physical Jews of Jesus's time were not lost, they were still there in Jerusalem worshiping at the temple. There are two sticks to the prophecy in Ezekiel, the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom, and they have been have already been brought back together in Christ, for His Kingdom is one and is not divided.

.

 

[Brother Mike]

I am a futurist.

I thought you were. I am also a futurist, or more I am agreement with the Word. I don't see Rev 12 though as a future thing, but something that happened in the past.

Be blessed.