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[_ Old Earth _] Embryonic Stem Cell Research

jasoncran said:
My wife has bp and wants to die often. having bp is uncurable and hell for some we dont let them choose to die, yet we torture them with life.

no i'm advocating letting of them commit suicide, but this life to a christian is temporal and passing, we all are dying, the question is whats next. for me heaven. though cancer and such like will shake anyones faith, i know of some who have survived and grew in the lord.

gojubrian is a cancer survvivor. billy graham said the cancer he had was the best thing that happen to him. made him focus on God. He aslo prayed that it wouldnt be healed.

i'm not able to fully grasp that at all.

is science then a philosophy?
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I don't know enough about BP to comment on that.

I know what Christians believe. I used to be one.

Some people need religion and a God for comfort, some don't. It's all personal choice. Some are more susceptible to change their mind on God depending on their situation, and this is not me attacking faith or any one religion or lack of religion.
 
jasoncran said:
really then why all negative reactions then to them? why has adult stem had more results. then the esr's.

http://www.stemcellresearch.org/facts/treatments.htm what results according that site.
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Heh... Seems a somewhat biased list. ;)
Also, the question was not whether ESR has produced any cures yet, because it hasn't. But as I've mentioned earlier in the tread it ESR has some essential advantages over ARS as a research tool and might produce a multitude of medicinal advances in the future.

The reason ASR is seeing some use is mainly because you avoid the whole tissue rejection issue since the DNA of the cells that are introduced is the same as that of the patient.

In short:
ASR; More difficult to procure, easier to adapt into cures, lower potential.
ESR; Easier to procure, harder to adapt into cures, almost limitless potential.

Also, back on topic please. :D
 
what you dont like the counter argument into why we shouldnt use it from a purely scientific point. if it works then use it, asr.

how hard can it be for a doc to get my own asr's to use on me, no chance of rejection or rather low since the immune system will acknowledge them as normal cells, not threats.

that site i gave you had links to a peer reviewed list, so i guess if it dont agree with you is it biased?

i can get more, you asked us why we are against esr's that is why.
 
jasoncran said:
what you dont like the counter argument into why we shouldnt use it from a purely scientific point. if it works then use it, asr.

how hard can it be for a doc to get my own asr's to use on me, no chance of rejection or rather low since the immune system will acknowledge them as normal cells, not threats.

that site i gave you had links to a peer reviewed list, so i guess if it dont agree with you is it biased?

i can get more, you asked us why we are against esr's that is why.
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Did you actually read the list?

Cause...I did. ;)

Go check it again and tell me what it contains will you?
 
jasoncran said:
what's the problem then it isnt a complete list they acknowledge that. i also posted another shall i continue.
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The list -only- contains research papers on potential and existing cures using adult stem cells. There is no mention of embryonic stem cells at all. ;)
 
jasoncran said:
from the nih, it says some of what you say, but look at the section for adult stem cells.

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/defaultpage.asp
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And I quote:

"Human embryonic and adult stem cells each have advantages and disadvantages regarding potential use for cell-based regenerative therapies. One major difference between adult and embryonic stem cells is their different abilities in the number and type of differentiated cell types they can become. Embryonic stem cells can become all cell types of the body because they are pluripotent. Adult stem cells are thought to be limited to differentiating into different cell types of their tissue of origin.

Embryonic stem cells can be grown relatively easily in culture. Adult stem cells are rare in mature tissues, so isolating these cells from an adult tissue is challenging, and methods to expand their numbers in cell culture have not yet been worked out. This is an important distinction, as large numbers of cells are needed for stem cell replacement therapies."

Exactly what I have been saying.
 
yes, it did say that peer review wasnt complete unfortunalely. why they only posted that side wasnt helpful.

but the nih link mentions that that only adults have been used so far. and have been for some time.

very well but we considered it life, and you dont,(zygotes).

so who gets to be considered God here. not us. see my thing on alzheimers and i will add the thing on the comatose,as they have lost brain function, so aren't they dead too. After we christians have that pesky annyoning concern about the lives of the unborn and the elderly.

this isnt just a scientific thing only, unless you consider science to be a philosophy.
 
jasoncran said:
yes, it did say that peer review wasnt complete unfortunalely. why they only posted that side wasnt helpful.
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Exactly, and agreed.

jasoncran said:
but the nih link mentions that that only adults have been used so far. and have been for some time.
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No-one is denying that only adult stem-cells have been used for effective treatment, but that's not the point.

jasoncran said:
very well but we considered it life, and you dont,(zygotes).
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That may well be the dividing line, yes. Do you have any arguments that are not based on faith?

jasoncran said:
so who gets to be considered God here. not us. see my thing on alzheimers and i will add the thing on the comatose,as they have lost brain function, so aren't they dead too. After we christians have that pesky annyoning concern about the lives of the unborn and the elderly.
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Oh, I care about the unborn and the elderly too, it's just that I don't consider something that doesn't even have a nervous system to be a person, let alone a clump of cells that doesn't even remotely resemble a human being on anything but the genetic level. Skin cells on the tip of my nose has those too.

Difference.

jasoncran said:
this isnt just a scientific thing only, unless you consider science to be a philosophy.
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Science is a method of inquiry. As for whether this is a scientific issue only, that is debatable of course, but I agree that science cannot tell us what is morally right or wrong. But it can tell us how it is and encourage us to be consistent.
 
but this issue requires medical ethics also as we are are also discussing why christains are against it.

we have view that is alittle different then based on naturalism and humanism. that is why we protest the esr's.

we can justifying the killing of the brain dead as that isnt much different then a zygote, the "nervous" system isnt there to run the body so the machines must do it.

think terry shalvo.
 
1. Why are you opposed to embryonic stem cell research?
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I will take this topic one question at a time.. The OP is asking for Christian input that has a problem or problems with this type of research? Since I am a Christian my answers does not in any way reflect what other Christians think or feel about this topic. These are my objections to said topic. First I see no problem in ASR and this research has been most favorable. Now compared to OSR which have not really show any favorable results, “not that I am aware of.†Regardless of the outcome, how and when did humans become the author of life and where it begins? Just as Jason has said in many of his posts that life cannot be measured by our finite knowledge. If we start to assert our finite knowledge to say that this is where life begins, then we are taking the place of God and His infinite knowledge.

Stem cell research and human cloning are about transforming the mystery and majesty of life into a mere malleable and marketable commodity. In the short term, this is big business and offers great fame and fortune to the pioneers and biotech companies who master their secrets and harness the power of life through.... CRI institute
A quote form CRI I think says it best, I think this is the more important part of this research, fame and fortune. Now having said this and giving my view and belief, after all isn't that the question of the opening post, not to prove the existence of a soul or not. Jesus said we are known before the fountain of creation. If Jesus knew us then, before we are born. Then who has left and made us the sole keeper of the kingdom. Again my belief my opinions and absolutely nothing will change that. freeway
 
continued OSR:
First, one minor complication is that use of human embryonic stem cells requires lifelong use of drugs to prevent rejection of the tissue. Second, another more serious disadvantage is that using embryonic stem cells can produce tumors from rapid growth when injected into adult patients. A third disadvantage reported in the March 8, 2001, New England Journal of Medicine was of tragic side effects from an experiment involving the insertion of fetal brain cells into the brains of Parkinson's disease patients. Results included uncontrollable movements: writhing, twisting, head jerking, arm-flailing, and constant chewing. Fourth, a recent report in the Journal Science reported that mice cloned from ESC were genetically defective. If human ESC are also genetically unstable, that could materially compromise efforts to transform cells extracted from embryos into successful medical therapies. Finally, the research may be hampered because many of the existing stem cell lines were grown with the necessary help of mouse cells. If any of this research is to turn into treatments, it will need approval from the FDA, which requires special safeguards to prevent transmission of animal diseases to people. It is unclear how many of these cell lines were developed with the safeguards in place. This leads to a host of problems related to transgenic issues.
Again form CRI. and yes this is where I get my information from, Christians website. I think this kind of results show that OSR is not the answers they were looking for. So why continue in this line of research when ASR is working in area already without the huge complications.
 
jasoncran said:
but this issue requires medical ethics also as we are are also discussing why christains are against it.
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Granted. That is why I said that science cannot tell us what is morally right or wrong. But it does imply that we should be consistent in our decisions. I'll get back to more of that later.

jasoncran said:
we have view that is alittle different then based on naturalism and humanism. that is why we protest the esr's.
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So I gather. I've heard the "soul argument" before and part of this tread is to see if there are other issues than that which bother those who are opposed to ESR.

jasoncran said:
we can justifying the killing of the brain dead as that isnt much different then a zygote, the "nervous" system isnt there to run the body so the machines must do it.
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This is why many countries have laws that state that when the patient is verifyably brain dead the relatives can decide to discontinue life-sustaining treatment.


Freeway, I will reply to your posts when you have had time to go through the questions so as not to muddle up the tread too much.
 
2. If the zygots are not used for stem cell research what would you like us to do with them?
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To be honest, I've never really thought about this before, If I say go ahead and use them for research then I am being a hypocrite. If I say destroy them, after just saying in my earlier post that Jesus knows us before the creation, then I'm a hypocrite. So I guess all I can say is "I'll let God be God, let scienctist answer to God. As for me, I have no answer for this. :shrug
 
3. Assuming you believe in a soul, at what point does the soul get attached to the body? At conception? At birth? Earlier? Later?
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Now I can not answer this in any other way than what I believe, and that belief comes form the bible. I believe every human ever created is in fact a beautiful creation to God. Whether born or unborn. The question seem to be asking If I know for certain when humans get a soul? Life is given by God, from God and at what point does He give it a soul? I can not say for sure, only that our soul is given when life is given. I believe life is given at conception and not 3 day 10 days 10yrs. Can I point to scientific proof, NO. Can I point to the bible, which in my view is far greater than any thing science can come up with. Again Jesus said that He knew us before the fountain of the universe/creation.The Bible teaches that man is a special creation (Genesis 1:27), life begins at conception (Jeremiah 1:5; Galatians 1:15), and the pre-born are human beings (Luke 1:41; Exodus 21:22). Further-more, we are specifically told not to murder, which includes abortion. Scripture teaches that human life is special (Psalm 139:13-14) and that people have been created in God’s image (Genesis 1:27). Now if God has that much to say about us and life. Then who are we to say when life begins and when does humans receive a soul. To me a Christian life began for me in eternity past, before time was measured at all, and I was only known to God.
 
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