End Times order of events

[Vic C.]

Paul mentions the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is a judgment in heaven with believers (that's whom he was addressing) and not a judgment for unbelievers regarding salvation. Yet, at the end of Revelation, we see she "hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." and these same arrayed characters return with Jesus in Revelation 19:14 "in fine linen". They come back already judged. For what are they judged? Not for salvation, but based on how they used their faith which resulted in their works.

This presents no real problem for me, because I see the ekklesia as the Body and "Israel" as the Bride. We are told that we are invited to the wedding feast. We need no invitation if we are the Bride. Just as we have been invited to be grafted into the vine. 8-)

 

[lecoop]

Yes, that's exactly what I believe as somebody (flesh and blood) has to inherit the Kingdom when Israel is restored and the other nations have to worship. BUt that is my point regarding the timing of the rapture as well. If these saved people just been thru the Tribulation and now suddenly Christ comes back, then why would they not be changed into their glorious bodies if that's when the rapture is supposed to occur? If Christ on the other hand comes back and they are merely gathered and saved (still in their bodies as Christians are now), then that implies that they missed being changed at some point. And like you said, their offspring will not be believers at the very end, even with the presence of the Lord and a perfect government which explains how there can be a rebellion at the end of Revelation.

The only translation I can see happening at the actual Second Coming is the resurrection of the martyred saints who it says also rules with Christ. That would not be a contradiction since they already were dead. But the living believers cannot undergo this transformation at the same time and yet be flesh and blood people to enter the Kingdom is my point regarding the timing. (As you know, the Pre-Trib rapture would be the resurrection and translation of the church not to be confused with the resurrection of the Tribulation martyrs and the last resurrection at the White Throne judgment).

Tim, you have "hit the nail squarely on the head," as they say. This is one thing that postribbers have no answer for. If there are to be babies in the millennium, and there certainly will, then there will have to be flesh and blood people there to create these babies.

I think one thing that people miss is that Revelation is not really addressed to the Gentile church! That is why there is so little there that speaks directly to us. The churches that John sent the book to, were all Jewish churches. They all died out, and the Gentile church expanded. About half of the book, chapters 7 to 16, are about the "70th week" of Daniel: again, an event not related at all to the Gentile church, as we won't be here.

Of course we, as well as the remnant of Israel, that are written in the book, will be found in the New Jerusalem, and in those last three chapters. The Pauline Epistles are directed straight to the Gentile church, and there is where we find the rapture of the church. However, I am convinced that God in His wisdom, did give us a hint of the rapture in Revelation, showing us the end result of the rapture: the great crowd without number.

Who will be the flesh and blood people to enter the kingdom? I believe it will be those that turn to God after hearing the messages of the angels, in chapter 14, and then survive the "Day of the Lord." They will be the righteous at the sheep and goat judgement, for they will have helped Israel (descendants of Jacob) escape the beast.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Coop, you may be interested to know that I have given your interpretation of Rev 6:2 some thought and it's not as far fetched as I thought. 8-)

 

[lecoop]

Coop, you may be interested to know that I have given your interpretation of Rev 6:2 some thought and it's not as far fetched as I thought. 8-)

:angel: May wonders never cease! As I have said from the beginning, this all came to me from the Holy Spirit. I'm not smart enough to understand any of this on my own. I am smart enough to wait on Him, and receive revelation knowledge! Thank God for the Holy Spirit!

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Yeah, I was reading the account of Noah and the word bow jumped out at me.

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Obviously the bow is the symbol of the covenant with Noah. Could the bow in Revelation 6:2 represent the New Covenant?

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


Hmmmm..........

 

[lecoop]

Yeah, I was reading the account of Noah and the word bow jumped out at me.

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Obviously the bow is the symbol of the covenant with Noah. Could the bow in Revelation 6:2 represent the New Covenant?

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


Hmmmm..........

It is a different word. The word for "bow" in the hand of the rider, is used only this once. It is the word, "toxon." From this word, we get "toxic." I have done a lot of research on this one word. It seems it was used almost exclusively in Greek literature as the weapon. It was customary to put "toxon" on the arrow: a poison that would kill or put to sleep whoever or whatever was hit.

How Strong got a "ribbon" bow out of this is beyond me. I am convinced that he missed it here. I believe that the Holy Spirit meant to show a weapon, but not a complete physical weapon, since there were no arrows. To me, this means he, the rider, has weapons, but they are spiritual weapons, mighty in the spirit to the pulling down of strongholds.

That is my take. An interesting study is the root word that "toxon" comes from. (At least according to Thayers.)

Coop

 

[golfjack]

reply

The rider on this white horse is none other than the anti-christ.




May God bless, Golfjack

 

[lecoop]

Re: reply

The rider on this white horse is none other than the anti-christ.

May God bless, Golfjack

What words in his description would give you this idea?

Are the other horses and riders with him? I mean, are they all working together in what they do?

Can you show scripture that would give even a hint as to the timing of when this first rider rides out?

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

... How Strong got a "ribbon" bow out of this is beyond me. I am convinced that he missed it here. I believe that the Holy Spirit meant to show a weapon, but not a complete physical weapon, since there were no arrows. To me, this means he, the rider, has weapons, but they are spiritual weapons, mighty in the spirit to the pulling down of strongholds.

That is my take. An interesting study is the root word that "toxon" comes from. (At least according to Thayers.)

Coop

Stick with Thayer. Strong's definition's at times are "weak". 8-)

I didn't even get as far as word study on this just yet. Good job, Coop.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: reply

... Can you show scripture that would give even a hint as to the timing of when this first rider rides out?

Coop

One can't once they start seeing this from a historical perspective.

 

[lecoop]

Re: reply

One can't once they start seeing this from a historical perspective.

Vic, I just have to disagree! I believe a careful study of chapter 5 gives us the timing. As I have showed before, I believe the Holy Spirit caused John to write as he did, to show us that John saw (in the vision) the very moment that Jesus ascended to heaven, very likely, right after telling Mary not to touch him, for He had not yet ascended.

Then, immediately after some worship, Jesus starts breaking the seals. I believe it is written thus, to show us that the timing was as soon as Jesus ascended. I was not smart enough to see this, and can take no credit what so ever. I just kept bugging God about why He included things like "John wept much," until one day He told me.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Re: reply

Vic, I just have to disagree! I believe a careful study of chapter 5 gives us the timing. As I have showed before, I believe the Holy Spirit caused John to write as he did, to show us that John saw (in the vision) the very moment that Jesus ascended to heaven, very likely, right after telling Mary not to touch him, for He had not yet ascended.

Then, immediately after some worship, Jesus starts breaking the seals. I believe it is written thus, to show us that the timing was as soon as Jesus ascended. I was not smart enough to see this, and can take no credit what so ever. I just kept bugging God about why He included things like "John wept much," until one day He told me.

Coop

All which is historical from our perspective. I was agreeing with you, in a sense... now you disagree with me. :robot:

:-D

 

[Vic C.]

I now see that I erred in what I said. I meant that if one looks at this from a historical perspective, it is tough to put many of the seals in the future.

 

[lecoop]

I now see that I erred in what I said. I meant that if one looks at this from a historical perspective, it is tough to put many of the seals in the future.

Ah! And that I can agree with! :wink:

I see us waiting on the 6th seal, as that is both the timing of the rapture, for the righteous, and the "sudden destruction" for those left.

Coop