Ephesians 1:4:Chosen before the foundation of the world?

[farley]

cj,

Like some others who post here, you seem very sure that your interpretations of scripture are superior to those of others. Yet, I see conflicts with your views and scripture.

You stated…

And scripture says that some men will not be saved, which, given a God for whom nothing is impossible, we must equate to the fact that this God never intended them to be saved.

I am in agreement with the part of your above statement about the scripture saying that some men will not be saved, but this FACT that you have equated from this information, that, therefore â€Â…God never intended them to be saved.â€Â…results in a conflict with at least one passage of scripture. See below...

1 Timothy 2:4 KJV
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

In my view, this makes your interpretation flawed on this one issue, and, therefore, casts a shadow of doubt on the rest of your opinions.

I would like to see any BCV references that support this FACT which you have equated, if they are available, please.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Is anyone going to answer my questions at all? Please! I really want to know!

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,

You stated, then asked…

You did not answer my question. Do you believe that it is because of your superior wisdom and ability that you can believe in God? Yes or no.

No.

You asked…
[quote:97644]Or do you believe that it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to believe? A simple yes or no will do.

No. Does your above question imply that you are holding the Holy Spirit responsible for those who have no faith, little faith, and/or false faith? A simple yes or no will suffice!

You stated, then asked…

I know what Paul says. He says it is a gift from God so that no one can boast. Or do you boast about your ability to believe? Which is it?

You definitely SHOULD know what Paul says if you are going to reference his inspired teachings, but I fear that you don’t.

Paul clearly states, in more than one place, that “grace†is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The passage above uses the words “it†and “giftâ€Â, singular, not ‘they’ and ‘gifts’ as it would have to be if the meaning involved multiple gifts, such as grace ‘and’ faith. Please see the references below…

Ephesians 3:7 KJV
(7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Please NOTE, â€Â…the gift of the grace of God…â€Â. A singular gift! Of what? GRACE!!!

Acts 11:17 KJV
(17) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Here it is obvious that the “giftâ€Â, singular, has to mean 'grace' only. It was given to those who already had ‘faith’ and were using it properly, because they “…believed on the Lord Jesus Christ…â€Â!!!

You asked of SputnikBoy…

But why do you attack me if my interpretations don't contradict the bible?

Please see my comments above, and below, regarding your interpretations of the Bible!!!

I know that I'm not the first here to conflict with your views, and I am sorry to have to point this out to you, but, in my opinion, most of your comments that I have ran across, and there are many, are full of interpretations whose true meanings have been twisted away from the truth.

In Christ,

farley[/quote:97644]

You contradicted yourself again. You said that it is not because of your superior ability or wisdom that makes you believe. But then you asked if the Holy Spirit is responsible for our faith. If you don't think it is man's superior wisdom or intelligence that makes us believe, then why did you ask the second question? :o Not only is it stated in the bible that faith comes from the Holy Spirit, but i have never, never, indicated otherwise. But you have.

The rest of your comments make zero sense whatsover.

And what passages have I contradicted? verses please. But every post of yours is contradictory. As I pointed out, you talk out of both sides of your mouth so that it is unclear what you believe.

But my belief that faith is a gift from God-not from ourselves is re-iterated through every post I make. I have never taken credit for my faith or salvation. Nowhere on this forum or anywhere else.

So if you disagree with my beliefs, then you must belive that faith comes from ourselves, which is another contradiction you make. So which is it? :o

 

[cj]

cj,

Like some others who post here, you seem very sure that your interpretations of scripture are superior to those of others.

Superior, no, just proper.

Yet, I see conflicts with your views and scripture.

Then stop looking at the conflicts.

Really, what are you looking for clarity or conflict.

See Farley, to have a proper view of something you need to be clear about what you're looking for.

You stated…

And scripture says that some men will not be saved, which, given a God for whom nothing is impossible, we must equate to the fact that this God never intended them to be saved.

I am in agreement with the part of your above statement about the scripture saying that some men will not be saved, but this FACT that you have equated from this information, that, therefore â€Â…God never intended them to be saved.â€Â…results in a conflict with at least one passage of scripture. See below...

1 Timothy 2:4 KJV
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

In my view, this makes your interpretation flawed on this one issue, and, therefore, casts a shadow of doubt on the rest of your opinions.

It is absolutely God's desire that all men be saved; how much more clear could we be told exactly that by scripture?

But just as absolutely we know that not all men will be saved.

And, we also know that nothing is impossible for God.

So what gives?

Additionally, scripture tells us that no man comes to God but that God draws all men to Himself.


Considering the above, there is only one conclusion to reach, and this is God knew that some men would not be saved and yet allowed them to be conceived and born.

Now this is hard to accept, but I've learnt one thing about God, His ways are not our ways.

So I put my thoughts concerning the above away for a while and began considering the following,..... could i still love and serve God, even though He might do things that I find to be completely wrong?

I can't.

So what then?

One becomes even more desperate for God and His grace.

And this is the core of the process of Godly growth we are going through.


Your thoughts and my thoughts about the salvation of men must be placed under the killing work of the cross.


Neither you nor I will ever come to enjoy the fulness of God if there is even one touch of the fallen man in us.

And the truth is, our thoughts on man's salvation are wrought in the concepts and opinions of our fallen self.

I would like to see any BCV references that support this FACT which you have equated, if they are available, please.

Look up the word hell in the bible, and then tell me if any of the verses you find the word in tell us there will be men in it.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Wow! I got all of that for saying that I chose to accept Jesus?

Just in case you have not noticed, you're not the only one who reads the posts on these boards.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Nevermore will this man be without God, and he will not suffer eternal damnation.

And scripture says that some men will not be saved, which, given a God for whom nothing is impossible, we must equate to the fact that this God never intended them to be saved.

Allow me one more spoken thought...... Although we can know for sure that there will be some men who won't be saved, we have no idea who these men are and must therefore treat all men as if they are chosen by God to be saved.j

If man was made to die and merely flit out of existence and only a select few would be chosen to live, your view might be somewhat acceptable. However, when you throw in the fact that God created an eternal burning hell specifically to punish sinners and then created man only to choose them to go in, your 'god' is not a god of love or mercy but a vindictive, cruel and unfair God.

Whatever floats your boat.

I'd venture to say that you have no clue as to the reality of the words vindictive, cruel and unfair. Yet you toss them around as if you do.

Tell me,... how vindictive, cruel and unfair is it for you to sin against the God who died so that you might have eternal life?

So much for really knowing these words.

So your view (if it is true) shows what a fallacy the traditional view of hell is in it's own right, nevermind connected to such an unfair, false doctrine as predestination.

Hell is hell.

Tell me,.... what typs of mind would think it up, this hell I mean?

Would the mind of God be #1 on your list of "hell" creators?

I fail to see how you can say I am a liar by observing the law and my views on the Sabbath are 'from the pits of hell' as you say, but you can make God choose to create man to simply burn him in eternity with no chance to choose him.

Your failure does not negate the truth.

Jesus was standing right in front of Jews who knew the OT scriptures inside out, scriptures that were all about Him. And yet they "fail" to see who He was/is.


In love,
cj

 

[farley]

Heidi,

You are babbling so, it's difficult follow what you are saying!

You contradicted yourself again. You said that it is not because of your superior ability or wisdom that makes you believe.

Heidi, all I said was that my faith, or anyone’s, was not due to any kind of superiority that I, or anyone, may possess. This is the one and only view I’ve ever had on this position, so I don’t see how you can say that I’m contradicting myself.

If anyone agrees with Heidi’s view that I’ve contradicted myself in my earlier comments, please let me know.

But then you asked if the Holy Spirit is responsible for our faith. If you don't think it is man's superior wisdom or intelligence that makes us believe, then why did you ask the second question?

Since you were declaring that our faith is totally due to a gift from the Holy Spirit, I was asking you to explain why the Holy Spirit would give some people gifts of “no faithâ€Â, “little faithâ€Â, and/or “false faithâ€Â. And, since I provided BCV with my positions, please do the same with your positions!

Not only is it stated in the bible that faith comes from the Holy Spirit, but i have never, never, indicated otherwise.

Where is this stated in the Bible? BCV, please! And, BTW, I have never, never, said that you did say otherwise!

And what passages have I contradicted? verses please.

I said that what you ARE saying is in conflict with other scripture!!! Except for Ephesians 2:8, which, in my view, you are just flat out misinterpreting. But, then this does STILL make it conflict with other scripture though, doesn’t it?

If you are asking for references on your contradicted passages outside of this thread, then darling, you're gonna have to put me on your payroll!!!

The rest of your comments make zero sense whatsover.

To me, it seems like you may be in a state of agitation. Please…calm down! We’re just having a simple discussion, here. Relax a little bit. I hope that I’ve clarified myself above. If not, I’ll try again if you desire.

So if you disagree with my beliefs, then you must belive that faith comes from ourselves, which is another contradiction you make. So which is it?

This is not a contradiction of mine!!! I DO believe that each of us is responsible for our own faith, or lack there of! Please…go back and re-read my comments, I’ve stated this before!!!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Heidi]

Again your post is contradictory, Farley. My "interpretation" of Ephesians 2:8-9, is;

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is a gift from God, not by works, so that no one can boast."

My "interpretation is believing those words verbatim, just as written. And as I've said many, many times here, that passage says everything there is to say about salvation.

But since you say you disagree with me, then of course you must think we are not saved by grace, but works. Is that correct? if not, then why do you say you disagree with me? :o

So not only are your posts contradictory, but you are lying about me as well, because I have always said that we have been saved by grace through faith, and this not from ourselves, but it's a gift from God and not by works, so that no one can boast.

So I'm tired of being lied about and slammed for believing the bible. But some people simply like to attack others for no reason. Therefore it doesn't seem to do any good conversing with you since you twist people's words and contradict yourself all over the place. This benefits no one.

 

[guibox]

So I'm tired of being lied about and slammed for believing the bible. But some people simply like to attack others for no reason. Therefore it doesn't seem to do any good conversing with you since you twist people's words and contradict yourself all over the place. This benefits no one.

Oh, Heidi get over yourself, please. :roll:

The fallacy lies in your own attitude that your view and interpretation of the Bible is 100% correct. You don't seem to think that being wrong is a possibility so whenever someone slams your view, you equate it with slamming the bible.

Your gross misinterpretation and ignorance of context of Romans 14 (and misguided interpretation of Hebrews 4) are prime examples but when anyone tries to point out the problems, they are otherwise ignored by yourself or you go on some 'martydom for the faith' tirade.

I have continually shown the illogical context of your interpretation of Romans 14 talking about unclean foods and sabbath keeping (even showing the Greek words for crying out loud) and yet you go and say that 'I'm attacking you because you believe the bible' and that 'I don't believe the bible'.

Some would call this egotistical, elitist thinking. Definitely not open minded or reasonable discussion.

 

[Heidi]

So am I to assume that you don't believe your beliefs are 100% correct? :o If so, then why do you pass them along? Why would you deliberately pass along beliefs you knew were false? :o How is that not a false teacher?

In addition, why would you vehemently attack others for not believing things you yourself doubt? :o That makes no sense whatsoever. So since you are not confident of your beliefs, then how can you expect others to be confident about them? :o

 

[farley]

cj,

I'm hesitant to invest much time pondering so much opinion with no scriptural references.

Telling others your feelings on issues is probably wonderful therapy for you, but it leaves me unfulfilled.

Hopefully, you know Dr. Laura's position on one who lets their feelings direct their actions. I'm in agreement with her on this issue.

You stated...

Look up the word hell in the bible, and then tell me if any of the verses you find the word in tell us there will be men in it.

You must hold a position on hell similar to the one Herbert W. Armstrong held. My view differs from his and yours. I see hell as being emptied out on Judgement Day, as mankind goes through the process of judgement.

The scripture, in my view, indicates that Satan, death, hell itself, and those found lacking will be thrown into the lake of fire, and will reside there for eternity.

Therefore, hell seems just to be a holding place that all will past through while we await our final judgement. I view the lake of fire as the ultimate place to avoid, not hell.

Focus on hell if you like, but not me!

In Christ,

farley

 

[guibox]

So am I to assume that you don't believe your beliefs are 100% correct? :o If so, then why do you pass them along? Why would you deliberately pass along beliefs you knew were false? :o How is that not a false teacher?

In addition, why would you vehemently attack others for not believing things you yourself doubt? :o That makes no sense whatsoever. So since you are not confident of your beliefs, then how can you expect others to be confident about them? :o

Heidi, I believe that all the light on certain subjects hasn't yet been fully revealed. One should have an open mind. I also think that one shouldn't be so confident to take the stance of 'you disagree with me, you disagree with the bible' when all the facts, context and support offer other views at best and contradicting information at worst.

You are taking this extreme without realizing that your stance doesn't hold water half the time under scrutiny. The sad thing is, is that you aren't willing to admit that perhaps your might be relying on your blinders too much.

There is nothing wrong with being confident in what you believe. However, to exclude all other opinions (especially when they have merit) and classify them as 'wrong' and you as 'right' is stubborn and one tracked thinking.

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, Guibox, but my interpretations do not contradict scripture which is why I have them. That is also my criteria for true interpretations versus false ones and should be your criteria also. There is no place in the NT since Christ died that says the Sabbath is a day of the week and in fact, it shows us the true meaning of the Sabbath as Jesus did when he healed on it. I also hold the belief that faith comes from the Holy Spirit and works come from faith which also contradicts nothing in scripture. So why are you angry because my beliefs don't contradict scripture? That's nonsense, unless you think I should have beliefs that contradict scripture, which is more non-sensical. So I will not contradict scriputre just so you can be happy.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

AGAIN I ask....

Again I ask.....

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't? Is there something in you that is more better? more special? Did you have more virtue? Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy? What was it that made you choose? What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

Were you saved by your own merit?

Do people not know the answer to these questions? Is that it? You don't know how to answer? Or are you afraid that your answers might confirm to you something that you already know deep in your heart?

 

[guibox]

AGAIN I ask....

Again I ask.....

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't? Is there something in you that is more better? more special? Did you have more virtue? Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy? What was it that made you choose? What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

Were you saved by your own merit?

Do people not know the answer to these questions? Is that it? You don't know how to answer? Or are you afraid that your answers might confirm to you something that you already know deep in your heart?

Simple...God called, I responded. I listened to the 'still small voice', the other guy didn't. I realized I couldn't make it or do it on my own, the other guy thought he could. I realized I needed a savior thanks to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, the other guy chose not to swallow his pride and follow Satan's path.

Pretty simple...Sounds like a certain being at the beginning of time that thought He could take God's place. I guess God showed that he had freedom of choice and faced the consequences of those actions.

As will we...thanks to our freedom of choice.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Simple...God called, I responded. I listened to the 'still small voice', the other guy didn't.

Why didn't he? What made you listen and him not?

I realized I couldn't make it or do it on my own, the other guy thought he could.

So you are somehow better than the other guy?

I realized I needed a savior thanks to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, the other guy chose not to swallow his pride and follow Satan's path.

So your realisation came from the fact that you were somehow better than the other guy?

Pretty simple...Sounds like a certain being at the beginning of time that thought He could take God's place. I guess God showed that he had freedom of choice and faced the consequences of those actions.

So basically what you're saying is that mankind isn't equal and that some are better able to choose Christ than others. That some have more virtue than others and some make better decisions than others because they are better people and realise they need a saviour better. Sounds like salvation based on merit to me!

What a wonderful man you are!!! Wow you sure seem smarter than the next guy - good for you!

 

[farley]

Merry M.,

I'm fairly new to this forum, I haven't been exposed to a lot of any particular members postings. So, I have little concept of most members views on many issues regarding the scriptures.

Would you mind sharing with me your interpretation of Biblical predestination?

In Christ,

farley

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I dont' have one!

The answers to these questions may help me in my quest to find out exactly what God means by 'predestination'. So I will ask you again - are you better than the guy who didn't choose God?

 

[Drew]

I have the same general response as guibox. I would further add that we are agents with free will and yes, some of us do make the "better choice" than others. I will not dispute that such a choice is technically a meritorious act - I think it clearly is. However, I will appeal to the admittedly dubious analogy of the drowning man wherein a passerby throws him a line and the victim can choose to grab it. In so doing, he acts in respect to his "salvation". Same idea with the Christian.

I know this strikes many (and I suspect Merry M is in this camp) as a position of salvation by works. I would hasten to add, however, that the overwhelming majority of the "work" is accomplished by God - the unredeemed man is essentially engaging in a simple act of acceptance while Christ has accomplished the real work on the cross. I would maintain that the person who accepts Christ is, for all intents and purposes, saved by grace.

I will claim that to argue otherwise is to take a very hard line to the effect that the whole process must be absolutely and totally devoid of any human act whatsoever that contributes to salvation. I realize that this is complex topic, however, and I am sure more robust arguments on both sides could be constructed.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Salvation by merit. You're more capable of choosing what's right than the next guy. Is that what you're saying?

You have more virtue and more ability to choose God? So all mankind are not all equal - some are 'more evil' than others? Is that what you're saying?