Ephesians 1:4:Chosen before the foundation of the world?

[Merry Menagerie]

I'm going to answer my own questions here - just so everything is fair ;)

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

No we are saved by grace through faith which is a GIFT from God

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

I don't know

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't?

I don't know

Is there something in you that is more better? more special?

No!!! I was a sinner just like them - no different to them.

Did you have more virtue?

No

Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy?

I was no different than the next guy

What was it that made you choose?

God perhaps - it wasn't my wonderful ability because I didn't have any more ability than the next guy and he didn't choose.

What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

I didn't possess any wonderful quality that would make me different to anyone else. I was lost in my sin and blinded to the things of God - just like everyone else - no different.

Were you saved by your own merit?

No way, I had no merit, I was nothing - I had no ability to come to God - for if I were then Jesus dying on the Cross would kinda lose it's importance.

 

[Drew]

I would like to add something to my previous post to illustrate the dangers of taking an overly "literal" view towards reading Biblical passages. Some people will argue that God "chooses" whom He will save taking no account at all of any attribute of that person and yet He does not select whom he will save "at random". Presumably such a position is based on some texts from the New Testament.

I think that such a position, whether or not there are some verses that support it, simply cannot exist and here's why: There is, in a conceptual sense, no possible way for anybody (even God) to make a choice between 2 persons without in some way taking account of the personal characteristics of these 2 people (unless the choice is purely random). This is because there is "nothing left" to distinguish me from everyone else if my attributes are ignored. In a very real sense, I can only be known by my attributes - if we take away my characteristics, there is nothing left for God to base his choice on.

I think a similar "technicality" is at play in respect to us playing a role in our salvation, although I am having difficulty finding the right words - perhaps later.

 

[Drew]

Salvation by merit. You're more capable of choosing what's right than the next guy. Is that what you're saying?

You have more virtue and more ability to choose God? So all mankind are not all equal - some are 'more evil' than others? Is that what you're saying?

I am saying that God does 99.9 % of the work and we do 0.1 % (to pick some numbers). To me, this is effectively a salvation by grace position. I fully admit, however, that there is a tiny element that we contribute (the act of acceptance). It does not have be 100% grace or 100 % works - there is the "middle ground" to consider (although my position is overwhelmingly loaded toward grace).

By implication, I am indeed saying that some men are more "evil" in that they refuse to accept the gift.

 

[farley]

Merry M.,

You responded...

I dont' have one!

Ohhh, come on now MM!

All those...

AGAIN I ask....

Again I ask.....

...reminds me of a cat. Getting ready to cough up a hair ball.

So, come on out with it!

It shouldn't kill anybody, and if it does, I'll kick in a little something towards the funeral expenses. Unless it's me.

You also asked, AGAIN...

So I will ask you again - are you better than the guy who didn't choose God?

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking that I was the first to respond to your question, way back on page one of this thread. I salted my reply in with one of my responses to Heidi.

BTW does anyone know for sure, is hair ball supposed to be one word or two?

In Christ,

farley

 

[Klee shay]

Out of curiosity to know what I will say, I am going to answer your questions too MerryM.

So we are saved by our own wonderful virtue of accepting Christ then?

I believe we are saved by Christ who recognises our willingness to be humbled when we ask for a saviour.

So tell me....why does one choose Christ and the other doesn't?

Because some prefer the darkness more than the light.

Why did you accept Christ's offer of salvation over the next guy that didn't?

For some reason, my ears heard the Good Shepherd's voice. I don't know what the next guy was listening to?

Is there something in you that is more better? more special?

I wouldn't say better, but there is a part of me which is useful in fulfilling the Lord's purpose. I am made special through Christ but that does not make my sin-nature contributions deserving of merit.

Did you have more virtue?

Heck no! Only through Christ can I part-take in his virtue.

Or did you have a better ability to resist deception than the next guy?

Nope I still fall for it every day. In new ways I learn how much I am really needing a saviour.

What was it that made you choose?

God opened my eyes to something I didn't understand before.

What wonderful quality did you possess to make you choose Christ?

I wouldn't call it a "wonderful quality" but the quality I used to choose Christ was accepting my sinful nature as truth. He was/is the complete opposite of my nature. Knowing I deserved damanation - it had to be Christ or my salvation was lost.

Were you saved by your own merit?

Is it a merit to say that I was saved by acknowledging my lack of merit and handing the salvation over to Christ? I guess I'm saying that my salvation comes through Christ and the merit does not fall upon me at all.


That was actually quite refreshing to get that out in the open. :D

 

[guibox]

Merry,

I will pose a few questions to you now:

1) Why did Christ have to die?

2) Who did Christ die for?

3) Who exactly is John 3:16 talking about?

4) Did you even read my initial post starting this thread??

I'll let you answer those before we continue...

 

[farley]

MM,

Ahh, you coughed it up while I was composing a response off-line.

I must say that you suprised me. I had you figured for a Calvinist, and was girding myself for a verbal jousting match.

Thanks for the response.

Also, Drew, excellent perspective. I agree!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Soma-Sight]

God is all about TIME....

He has prophecies that come in TIME

He has sayings in the Good Book that come in TIME

He will come again a second TIME

His creation of Nature functions in rythmic TIME

His standard for human conduct all revolves around actions in TIME

His Day of Rest is at a certain TIME

The Seventh Day is the right TIME to rest and pay homage to the Fourth commandment.....

Any other Day is off rythm and not the right TIME

 

[Klee shay]

Soma, "any other day" including the Sabbath is when Jesus himself chose to work, according to God's will. Was he out of rhythm?

 

[Vic C.]

Farly,

I have two cats... hairball is one word. :-D

 

[Soma-Sight]

Soma, "any other day" including the Sabbath is when Jesus himself chose to work, according to God's will. Was he out of rhythm?

he wasnt "working" like people do on the Sabbath nowadays....

He was Healing and Feeding the flock.....

 

[guibox]

How did a predestination thread turn into another Sabbath thread?

Please comment on my original post or kindly continue this discussion in the numerous Sabbath threads.

Thanks

 

[SputnikBoy]

Farly,

I have two cats... hairball is one word.

I also have two cats (Catface & Scamp) both of whom came into my life totally uninvited and I always thought that 'hair-ball' was hyphenated. Just goes to show. :shocked!:

 

[Klee shay]

He was Healing and Feeding the flock.....

AMEN! To which we should all aspire on any given day.