bleitzel -
I apologize for my lengthy delay in responding.
I finally found the original draft of my response to one who labeled himself a Calvinist.
In my view, how one views predestinaton is NOT essential to one's salvation.
BUT, if on'e's view of predestination is flawed, then most likely, so will one's walk with Christ!
Please feel free to pick my work apart, and examine every line for error, the truth is all that I am interested in!
PREDESTINATION
"As I continue to study John Calvin’s tenet of unconditional election, which is better known as “Predestinationâ€Â, I find that many Calvinists today are not what I would call true, or “orthodoxâ€Â, Calvinists. Most of these “Calvinistsâ€Â, with whom I discuss the Scriptures, know nothing of Calvin. In fact, when informed of the main tenets of Calvinism (T-U-L-I-P) they adamantly disagree with all of them but one. The one tenet that they do believe in is always the same one, perseverance of the saints. Which is, “A child of God once saved, cannot be lostâ€Â, or what most simply call, “Once saved, always saved!†Many often wrongly apply the terms - predestinate, elect, chosen and appointed. If we look for the term “elect†in the Old Testament (OT) we will find it properly defined for us.
Isaiah 45 KJV
(4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
It seems safe to say, that the nation of Israel was, and still is, God’s chosen people. However, one has to ignore and misinterpret much scripture to agree with John Calvin that these above terms are referencing those guaranteed eternal salvation from before birth.
In my view, the bulk of the New Testament (NT) is concerned with evangelizing everyone in the world, Hebrew and Gentile alike. Therefore, if the “elect†nation of Israel requires evangelizing, as does the non-elect Gentile world, Calvin’s definition of predestination must be flawed.
Now, let’s look at John 10:27-29, one passage of many that Calvinists use to support the tenets of their doctrine.
John 10 KJV
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
First, in my view, Jesus is not talking about all believers in this passage. The following verses help to illustrate that Christ is talking about only His apostles here.
John 17 KJV
(6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17 KJV
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18 KJV
(8) Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
(9) That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Notice that all of these passages are using the past tense. Furthermore, they clarify the fact that these sheep are only protected from physical harm, not spiritual harm, and only while Jesus Christ was alive. This protection ended upon Christ’s death on the cross.
Second, a few verses prior to John 10:27-29, quoted above, John 10:16, tells us that there is more than one fold in Jesus’ flock.
John 10 KJV
(16)And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Of course, I do see the Gentiles as possibly being a separate fold of sheep in Christ’s flock (church), mentioned above. However, I see nothing here that limits the number of folds in Christ’s flock to only two, the Jews and the Gentiles.
Again, I see the sheep spoken of in John 10:27-29, as being the apostles only. Now, while the apostles ARE all Jews, they are just a handful of individuals, rather than the whole nation of Israel. So, it appears to me that the apostles are, also, a fold of Christ’s sheep, separate and apart from the rest of the flock.
Here we have a specially “chosen†group within the “elected†nation of Israel. Which, if this interpretation is correct, means that there are at least three folds of sheep in Christ’s flock, if not more.
This is a much different example of predestination than John Calvin taught. Yet, I clearly see these passages as illuminating, and more correctly defining, the predestination spoken of in the Scriptures.
The four passages referenced below – Luke 6:13; John 6:70; John 15:16 and John 17:6, among others, further clarify, in my view, that each of the apostles were predestined for their role in life.
And further, if predestined means “eternally saved (or, eternally condemned)†as Calvin teaches, why then did Paul state…
Titus 1 KJV
(1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
(2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Here, in verse two, Paul’s, “In hope of eternal life…†means that we have, yet another, major conflict with Calvin’s definition of predestination! If someone who is one of God’s “electâ€Â, a “predestined oneâ€Â, an “appointed oneâ€Â, a “chosen one†is still only in HOPE of eternal life, then John Calvin’s tenet of “Predestination†is a total lie!
Additionally, 2 Peter 1:10 totally refutes CalvinÀ™s concept of anyone being “eternally predestinedâ€Â.
2 Peter 1 KJV
(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
I also see Romans as supporting the above teaching, but I don't have anything polished up enough to post at this time.
May God bless us all,
Pogo
I apologize for my lengthy delay in responding.
I finally found the original draft of my response to one who labeled himself a Calvinist.
In my view, how one views predestinaton is NOT essential to one's salvation.
BUT, if on'e's view of predestination is flawed, then most likely, so will one's walk with Christ!
Please feel free to pick my work apart, and examine every line for error, the truth is all that I am interested in!
PREDESTINATION
"As I continue to study John Calvin’s tenet of unconditional election, which is better known as “Predestinationâ€Â, I find that many Calvinists today are not what I would call true, or “orthodoxâ€Â, Calvinists. Most of these “Calvinistsâ€Â, with whom I discuss the Scriptures, know nothing of Calvin. In fact, when informed of the main tenets of Calvinism (T-U-L-I-P) they adamantly disagree with all of them but one. The one tenet that they do believe in is always the same one, perseverance of the saints. Which is, “A child of God once saved, cannot be lostâ€Â, or what most simply call, “Once saved, always saved!†Many often wrongly apply the terms - predestinate, elect, chosen and appointed. If we look for the term “elect†in the Old Testament (OT) we will find it properly defined for us.
Isaiah 45 KJV
(4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
It seems safe to say, that the nation of Israel was, and still is, God’s chosen people. However, one has to ignore and misinterpret much scripture to agree with John Calvin that these above terms are referencing those guaranteed eternal salvation from before birth.
In my view, the bulk of the New Testament (NT) is concerned with evangelizing everyone in the world, Hebrew and Gentile alike. Therefore, if the “elect†nation of Israel requires evangelizing, as does the non-elect Gentile world, Calvin’s definition of predestination must be flawed.
Now, let’s look at John 10:27-29, one passage of many that Calvinists use to support the tenets of their doctrine.
John 10 KJV
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
First, in my view, Jesus is not talking about all believers in this passage. The following verses help to illustrate that Christ is talking about only His apostles here.
John 17 KJV
(6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17 KJV
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18 KJV
(8) Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
(9) That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Notice that all of these passages are using the past tense. Furthermore, they clarify the fact that these sheep are only protected from physical harm, not spiritual harm, and only while Jesus Christ was alive. This protection ended upon Christ’s death on the cross.
Second, a few verses prior to John 10:27-29, quoted above, John 10:16, tells us that there is more than one fold in Jesus’ flock.
John 10 KJV
(16)And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Of course, I do see the Gentiles as possibly being a separate fold of sheep in Christ’s flock (church), mentioned above. However, I see nothing here that limits the number of folds in Christ’s flock to only two, the Jews and the Gentiles.
Again, I see the sheep spoken of in John 10:27-29, as being the apostles only. Now, while the apostles ARE all Jews, they are just a handful of individuals, rather than the whole nation of Israel. So, it appears to me that the apostles are, also, a fold of Christ’s sheep, separate and apart from the rest of the flock.
Here we have a specially “chosen†group within the “elected†nation of Israel. Which, if this interpretation is correct, means that there are at least three folds of sheep in Christ’s flock, if not more.
This is a much different example of predestination than John Calvin taught. Yet, I clearly see these passages as illuminating, and more correctly defining, the predestination spoken of in the Scriptures.
The four passages referenced below – Luke 6:13; John 6:70; John 15:16 and John 17:6, among others, further clarify, in my view, that each of the apostles were predestined for their role in life.
And further, if predestined means “eternally saved (or, eternally condemned)†as Calvin teaches, why then did Paul state…
Titus 1 KJV
(1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
(2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Here, in verse two, Paul’s, “In hope of eternal life…†means that we have, yet another, major conflict with Calvin’s definition of predestination! If someone who is one of God’s “electâ€Â, a “predestined oneâ€Â, an “appointed oneâ€Â, a “chosen one†is still only in HOPE of eternal life, then John Calvin’s tenet of “Predestination†is a total lie!
Additionally, 2 Peter 1:10 totally refutes CalvinÀ™s concept of anyone being “eternally predestinedâ€Â.
2 Peter 1 KJV
(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
I also see Romans as supporting the above teaching, but I don't have anything polished up enough to post at this time.
May God bless us all,
Pogo