Esau, did God really hate the baby Esau?

[Dorothy Mae]

In a discussion with one of the posters, the information as to what happened to the descendants of Esau, in terms of their relationship with Israel, came out. It was very informative and I thanked the poster. But one thing led to another and I realized that God loved Esau or at least it cannot be shown from scripture that He hated the baby, child or man.

Point 1: When Israel was traveling to the promised land, they were told by God Almighty NOT TO BOTHER the offspring of Esau.
"Do not provoke them to war, for I will not give you any of their land, not even enough to put your foot on. I have given Esau the hill country of Seir as his own." It is hard to imagine God blessing Esau with land if he hated him.

Point 2: God actually did bless Esau materially as we see him warmly welcoming Jacob back, who thought he would be killed as that was the last attitude Esau had. What had happened? Esau might have lost the right to be the father of the Messiah (eventually) but his own life was blessed and at some point God had spoken to him and given him land. An inheritance for his offspring. Life was good for Esau and God did not reject him.

Point 3: What does the scripture actually say about the babies in utero? It says there are two NATIONS struggling, not two men/babies/boys. The scripture goes on to say that the elder shall serve the young. Esau never served Jacob a day in his life. Not one day. So what is this scripture concerned with? What it says, the nations that came from these men.

Point 4: The quote that God hated Esau was written by a minor prophet a long time after the two men were dead. What was the prophet speaking of? The Edomites who were the descendants of Esau and who became very evil with time. God hated them because they were evil. The prophet was NOT speaking of the men in the past who were long dead. For us both are in the past but for the prophet he was speaking of the people descendant from those men, who were traditionally called by the name of their forefather. And, as I learned here, the Edomites did serve the Israelies at some point in time as Whatever told me, I think. The prophesy was fulfilled by the nations.

I know this is a cornerstone of Calvinism, that God hated Esau the baby, but for those considering the claims of Calvinism, can you see that God did not hate the baby Esau and love that conniving Jacob? The election as to who would be the father of the Messiah was selected by God before the babies had done anything and only one would be selected in any case. But God did not hate or love one baby more than the other and neither were elected for Heaven or Hell at that point in time, just who would be the line bringing the Saviour to the whole world. Who knows, maybe we meet Esau in Heaven one day.

 

[hawkman]

You might find this of interest about the word "hate" .
Hebrew Word for Hate

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You might find this of interest about the word "hate" .
Hebrew Word for Hate

I read it. It doesn’t paint God in a good light though. The OT also says God hates sin. Hard to think of the reason as Him feeling rejected. I think the solution enlightened by the scriptures elsewhere is better. God hated the evil offspring but loved the man Esau and personally gave Him land.

 

[Edward]

Point 1: When Israel was traveling to the promised land, they were told by God Almighty NOT TO BOTHER the offspring of Esau.
"Do not provoke them to war, for I will not give you any of their land, not even enough to put your foot on. I have given Esau the hill country of Seir as his own." It is hard to imagine God blessing Esau with land if he hated him.

I agree with this.

Point 2: God actually did bless Esau materially as we see him warmly welcoming Jacob back, who thought he would be killed as that was the last attitude Esau had. What had happened? Esau might have lost the right to be the father of the Messiah (eventually) but his own life was blessed and at some point God had spoken to him and given him land. An inheritance for his offspring. Life was good for Esau and God did not reject him.

Agreed here also

Point 3: What does the scripture actually say about the babies in utero? It says there are two NATIONS struggling, not two men/babies/boys. The scripture goes on to say that the elder shall serve the young. Esau never served Jacob a day in his life. Not one day. So what is this scripture concerned with? What it says, the nations that came from these men.

The two nations were, Esau made the Edomites (I think) and Jacob was Israel. Esau hasnt served Jacob yet? (I thought he did but could be wrong). In that case maybe it will be during the Millenium?!

Point 4: The quote that God hated Esau was written by a minor prophet a long time after the two men were dead. What was the prophet speaking of? The Edomites who were the descendants of Esau and who became very evil with time. God hated them because they were evil. The prophet was NOT speaking of the men in the past who were long dead. For us both are in the past but for the prophet he was speaking of the people descendant from those men, who were traditionally called by the name of their forefather. And, as I learned here, the Edomites did serve the Israelies at some point in time as @Whatever told me, I think. The prophesy was fulfilled by the nations.

The way I understand it, the language is full of culture and hebrewisms that can make it confusing if you don't about them. And so it had a poor translation and instead of God hated Esau, a more accurate rendering would be, God did not prefer Esau over Jacob, even as the first born.

That doesn't mean that God does not hate anything. There's a scripture about the seven things that God hates.
But He didn't hate Esau.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree with this.
Agreed here also
The two nations were, Esau made the Edomites (I think) and Jacob was Israel. Esau hasnt served Jacob yet? (I thought he did but could be wrong). In that case maybe it will be during the Millenium?!

The Edomites served Israel at some point. Whatever gave the reference. That’s over and I think the Edomites are no more in any case.

The way I understand it, the language is full of culture and hebrewisms that can make it confusing if you don't about them. And so it had a poor translation and instead of God hated Esau, a more accurate rendering would be, God did not prefer Esau over Jacob, even as the first born.

Except the men were long dead. No one said God hated Esau when he was born. And it says the prophesy is about the nations not the boys. And there’s evidence God loved the man. I don’t think this is hard to believe. God so loved the world…Esau too.

That doesn't mean that God does not hate anything. There's a scripture about the seven things that God hates.
But He didn't hate Esau.

Yes, I agree. Thanks for your post. It’s nice reading.

 

[hawkman]

But He didn't hate Esau.

Was God disgusted with Esau and the way Esau treated his birth right , I think so .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Was God disgusted with Esau and the way Esau treated his birth right , I think so .

Why? He never had the birth right in the first place. Jacob had it from the prophesy onwards. God doesn’t despise people who are foolish.

 

[Edward]

Was God disgusted with Esau and the way Esau treated his birth right , I think so .

Well the tradition was for the first born to get it, but God knew that Esau was going to be, shall we say, less productive than Jacob.

Esau was always gone hunting and stuff and Jacob stuck closer to home, taking care of his father and learning the scriptures. So I think it is a fair statement that God was disgusted with Esau but he did love him.

 

[Edward]

Why? He never had the birth right in the first place. Jacob had it from the prophesy onwards. God doesn’t despise people who are foolish.

The Hebrew custom of the birthright was that however many children was to inherit, one share would be added and the first born gets a double portion. So like if the man had 3 kids they would divide it into four portions and the firstborn would get half and the other two would split the rest.

And maybe God was disgusted with Esau? How would we know other than what is written? Maybe Esau did not cooperate with Gods plan for his life so God gave it to someone else?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well the tradition was for the first born to get it, but God knew that Esau was going to be, shall we say, less productive than Jacob.

Esau was always gone hunting and stuff and Jacob stuck closer to home, taking care of his father and learning the scriptures. So I think it is a fair statement that God was disgusted with Esau but he did love him.

There’s no reason to think God was disgusted with Esau. He actually gave him land. So the opposite seems to be the case.

 

[Edward]

There’s no reason to think God was disgusted with Esau. He actually gave him land. So the opposite seems to be the case.

No. God sure was something with Esau because they mistranslated what it was and said He hated Esau, but that wasn't right. God was at the very least diappointed with Esau.

And God blessing Esau with sustenance has nothing to do with God's disappointment in Esau. While we were yet sinners God blessed us and continues to bless us with sustenance, land, money, everything. All good things do come from God.

What if it was your kid? You get mad at him (her?) something real bad. Well we're not going to get you a new Lexus now because of what you did...But you still feed, house and care for them! Who cuts off the kids food? Same thing.

God blessing Esau is one of the attributes of God and His character. Esau would have been blessed even more if he had obeyed God more. For God rewards obedience.

 

[hawkman]

Why? He never had the birth right in the first place. Jacob had it from the prophesy onwards. God doesn’t despise people who are foolish.

Neither Jacob or Esau seem to have any knowledge of the prophesy , at least what we can tell by their actions .
Genesis Chapter 25

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

You know God could not have been happy that Esau thought so little of his birthright . Esau was foolish .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Neither Jacob or Esau seem to have any knowledge of the prophesy , at least what we can tell by their actions .
Genesis Chapter 25

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

You know God could not have been happy that Esau thought so little of his birthright . Esau was foolish .

You certainly cannot infer that they were ignorant of the prophesy. Since THEY had to pass it on to their children, they certainly knew same as Isaac knew of the promises of God to his father. The sons of both Esau would have know the prophesy.

By the way, that Esau claimed he sold his birthright is not seen in actual details. Esau had a great deal of property as a man so he seemed to get whatever his material birthright was. No man can buy or sell the blessing of God. That was not in question. So no, God would not have despised a man who sold his right to his father's material possessions as an inheritance.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. God sure was something with Esau because they mistranslated what it was and said He hated Esau, but that wasn't right. God was at the very least diappointed with Esau.

I do not attribute feelings or responses of God that the Bible does not testify that He has.

And God blessing Esau with sustenance has nothing to do with God's disappointment in Esau. While we were yet sinners God blessed us and continues to bless us with sustenance, land, money, everything. All good things do come from God.

Ah, land and riches are not considered "good things" in the Kingdom of God. They actually are matters Jesus said present many from even becoming believers. God personally gave Esau land for him and his descendants. God does not do this for those he despises or hates.

What if it was your kid? You get mad at him (her?) something real bad. Well we're not going to get you a new Lexus now because of what you did...But you still feed, house and care for them! Who cuts off the kids food? Same thing.

Most parents do not continue to feed, hours and clothe their grown sons and their families as it does harm if not impose a burden. And God gave Esau what was essentially a Lexus, a great deal of land.

God blessing Esau is one of the attributes of God and His character. Esau would have been blessed even more if he had obeyed God more. For God rewards obedience.

I just do not go beyond the text and attribute decisions and attitudes to know that no one who walked with Him attributed to Him.

 

[hawkman]

You certainly cannot infer that they were ignorant of the prophesy. Since THEY had to pass it on to their children, they certainly knew same as Isaac knew of the promises of God to his father. The sons of both Esau would have know the prophesy.

If so why did Jacob ask to buy the birthright ?

By the way, that Esau claimed he sold his birthright is not seen in actual details. Esau had a great deal of property as a man so he seemed to get whatever his material birthright was. No man can buy or sell the blessing of God. That was not in question. So no, God would not have despised a man who sold his right to his father's material possessions as an inheritance.

I never suggested God despised Esau .
Esau despised his birthright . Did that please God ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If so why did Jacob ask to buy the birthright ?

Well, what exactly did he think he was buying? I don’t think they thought they could buy the promises of God. I assume it was the material inheritance. What would material inheritance have helped if he does if hunger? So it fits into the story.

I never suggested God despised Esau

My apologies. That was Hopeful.

.
Esau despised his birthright . Did that please God ?

 

[Hopeful]

Well, what exactly did he think he was buying? I don’t think they thought they could buy the promises of God. I assume it was the material inheritance. What would material inheritance have helped if he does if hunger? So it fits into the story.

My apologies. That was Hopeful.

(It must have been someone else, as I have not been on this thread...but thanks for thinking of me)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(It must have been someone else, as I have not been on this thread...but thanks for thinking of me)

My apologies. It’s hard to keep who said what in mind.

 

[Hopeful]

My apologies. It’s hard to keep who said what in mind.

I hear you.
You have been around long enough that you know you can tap on the arrow-in-the-circle by the sender's name to go back to their post?
Right?
You can keep tapping that circle from post to post and go all the way back to the start of their inputs.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I hear you.
You have been around long enough that you know you can tap on the arrow-in-the-circle by the sender's name to go back to their post?
Right?
You can keep tapping that circle from post to post and go all the way back to the start of their inputs.

Wouldn’t have helped as I was referring someone not in the arrows.