Eternal Conditions With ALL Created Free Will!

[Alabaster]

calvinists believe that God selects from all racists whom to save. hypercalvinists dont they believe that certian indivuals and or races as a whole are doomed.

In other words, they believe that God chooses who to save and who not to save? That the blood of Jesus is limited in its atoning power? Are they racists?

 

[jasoncran]

In other words, they believe that God chooses who to save and who not to save? That the blood of Jesus is limited in its atoning power? Are they racists?

i have never meat one that is, but i could see that going that way. the irony here is that calvin and also luther murdered the jews and some just overlook that.

so if a man can murder and not repent, then who does that affect the perserverance of the saints doctrine? and btw reasearch calvin and what he actually said and what is taught.

i dont think modern day calvinism is the same as what he believed.

 

[Elijah674]

Perhaps this question needs your answers? When Lucifer in Eze. 28:14-15 was created PERFECT, was he MATURELY CREATED SO? If so, why did he fall? Is that not stated clear for you?? Well then, let's go to Adam, Christ has him... lets just say full grown physically, Perfect or very good the Word states (and God does not create flawed material)

And now God breathes life into his nostrils & he becomes a living soul. (person) So, how old is Adam? He is perfect as was Lucifer. OK, BUT WAS HE MATURELY PERFECT??? Was his 'mind' that of a inmature babe in Christ? It takes time as Heb. 5-6 teaches for one to MATURE to be PERFECTLY SANCTIFIED SAFE TO SAVE MATURITY! Nah. 1:9 (or matured, spiritually grown up!)

We see the Spiritual REQUIRED 'CONDITIONAL' PROCESS in Heb. 12:3-8 of maturity. As one can see, (some) that it is a free choice from start to finish. (check out verse 8!)

Still not clear?? Lets try just one more Clear School of thought, (as 'i' see it) In Rom. 8:1 we find NO CONDIMNATION to those [WHO ARE IN CHRIST]. PERFECT! And that is us also at this STARTING POINT ONLY! As was Lucifer in Eze. 28:15's first part, + Adam at his first breath of life! Gen. 1:31. OK: Now we find that both Lucifer & Adam sinned. They fell from Grace by free choice. And the Rom. 8:1 verse finds only those that are IN CHRIST are [WITH NO CONDEMNATION].

Now we come to verse 14 of Rom. 1. That of being LED of the Holy Spirit. All three of us were PERFECT at that point of time where we were IN CHRIST JESUS and took our first [SPIRITUAL BREATH]. Yet, when we are Led of the Holy Spirit and then BALK, we are right back to square one.

And there is more, THE ETERNAL PLAN OF SALVATION, but that never saves one [IN SIN!]

If that is of interest, let me know and I will give you my take on that. Rev. 14:6

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

Obsolete? The wind, seas, and all of creation have no choice but to obey the will of God.
Man alone can resist and refuse Him. God is Love and not willing that any should perish, but allows man the choice to believe in Him. He desires a loving relationship with man...not a forced one.

You are speaking against Christ. The scripture says, by the obedience of one, shall [ a promise] many be made righteous. rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

It does not say by the obedience of one many will have a choice to be made righteous.


It's just as sure as by the disobedience of one [Adam] many were made sinners. Now did they have a choice to be made sinners ?

 

[jasoncran]

glory:



You are speaking against Christ. The scripture says, by the obedience of one, shall [ a promise] many be made righteous. rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

It does not say by the obedience of one many will have a choice to be made righteous.


It's just as sure as by the disobedience of one [Adam] many were made sinners. Now did they have a choice to be made sinners ?

talk about a filter, no but we have a choice in repentance!
and humor me on this

if calvin knowingly murdered men, how could he if he is predestined unto salvation?

keep in mind he did this after trying to win them(jews) to the cross.

and per 1 john no man can hate his brother and love God at the same time.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ Himself fulfills all the conditions for those He died for to become obedient to Him..

Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience[His Death] of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

They shall be made righteous, the word righteous is the greek word: dikaios and means:

righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

This implies obedience !

Now, heb 5:



8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



In His being made Perfect by His obedience, He became the effective cause of the eternal salvation of those obeying Him..

Not to all without exception, but to those obeying Him, indicating that His obedience is making them righteous.

So we see that Heb 5 9 collaborates rom 5 19b confirming the potency and effects of the Death of Christ. All those Christ died for will be made to obey Him..ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing [voluntary obedience] in the day of thy power,[the power of the Cross]


If one never comes to obey Christ as in Matt 7:

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

That means Christ did not die for them, He did not by His death effect their obedience and make them righteous..

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

no but we have a choice in repentance!

No we don't.. Thats God's Choice to give to whomever He pleases 2 Tim 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Repentance is Given [ not offered] by God through Christ..acts 5:


31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel [A chosen people], and forgiveness of sins.

Which chosen people includes some gentiles also acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Again, not granted a chance at repentance, but granted repentance unto life..

Thats what makes Christ a Saviour, He gives them He saves repentnace towards God acts 20:

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

By His death He brings us [ The elect, the Sheep] unto God 1 pet 3:

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,

You deny all this jason ?

 

[jasoncran]

i find it hard to call someone saved that murdered and knowingly and hasnt repented.

the bible is very clear on this. if a man hateth is brother who dwelleth the LOVE of God in him? what does that mean? he cant be in love with christ, or one of his.

 

[savedbygrace57]

i find it hard to call someone saved that murdered and knowingly and hasnt repented.

the bible is very clear on this. if a man hateth is brother who dwelleth the LOVE of God in him? what does that mean? he cant be in love with christ, or one of his.

Why are you talking about calvin when I am talking about the accomplishments of Christ ?

 

[jasoncran]

jason:



No we don't.. Thats God's Choice to give to whomever He pleases 2 Tim 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Repentance is Given [ not offered] by God through Christ..acts 5:


31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel [A chosen people], and forgiveness of sins.

Which chosen people includes some gentiles also acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Again, not granted a chance at repentance, but granted repentance unto life..

Thats what makes Christ a Saviour, He gives them He saves repentnace towards God acts 20:

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

By His death He brings us [ The elect, the Sheep] unto God 1 pet 3:

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,

You deny all this jason ?

why then does the writer hebrews warn of hardening our hearts? how can harden our hearts if we cant resist grace?

and why would we need to make sure our salvation if we have been predestined? i do think the we can lose our salvation if we arent cautious but that is really hard to do. as we dont have the power to save ourselves or change but we can tell the lord no.

does the lord make us do things? did jesus make peter deny him.

wait,

when thou art converted , peter,strengthen the brethren.

hmm yet peter was called by the lord, yet the lord said this.

 

[jasoncran]

that reference to the gentile simply means that God has said that the gentile is able to come.

all means all no matter what.

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

that reference to the gentile simply means that God has said that the gentile is able to come.

Thats what you say and not what the scripture says, who should I believe, you or the scripture ?

And secondly, you mean to tell me you reject the rest of that same post as well ?

 

[jasoncran]

Why are you talking about calvin when I am talking about the accomplishments of Christ ?

because calvin walked away from christ when he killed the jews. reasearch it for yourself.

if he didnt repent and for this argument we assume no(i'm not judging him since i'm not god).

and doesnt God ordain us to good works? he does. so murdering the sinner and the lutherans and others is a good deed?

it also destroys that argument of yours that we all dont have a choice as that presents a problem.if one is in christ and does this? was that person ever saved or?

that is why i mention that. calvin and luther murdered the jews.

common knowledge to me. i dont hold all of christianity accountable for that(i am of this line) and i admit that the christian has done this.

know then if the man that came up with the doctrine is also able to walk away that doesnt mean that doctrine holds up does it?

do we know the apostles believe this as no mentioning of these things by paul are found in letters or works outside the bible.

keep in mind that trinity is combonation of vs that the bible supports and the same is the case for calvinism according to calvin. but i doubt that to be the case.

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

why then does the writer hebrews warn of hardening our hearts?

You explain your own ojectives as I did. Do you reject the Truthes in post 26 and 27 ?

I did my work, you do your own. Now do you reject whats been said in post 26 and 27 ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

because calvin walked away from christ when he killed the jews. reasearch it for yourself.

My post are about Christ jason, not calvin. Where have i posted anything calvin said ? Do you know the difference between scripture quotes and calvin quotes sir ?

 

[jasoncran]

jason:



You explain your own ojectives as I did. Do you reject the Truthes in post 26 and 27 ?

I did my work, you do your own. Now do you reject whats been said in post 26 and 27 ?

no , i see them differently as i dont have that bias as you do.

reconcile this basic english problem

hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
and that also references psalm 95:7

who is warned not to harden their hearts if they cant?

if you chose to listen to that voice(a choice) and its asking that you dont also harden you hearts.

so you can hear the lord and ignore him according that verse.

 

[jasoncran]

jason:



My post are about Christ jason, not calvin. Where have i posted anything calvin said ? Do you know the difference between scripture quotes and calvin quotes sir ?

because you dont believe in free will that is only from calvin! no other person before calvin existed believe that. unless you have some historical facts that the apostles say that or a church that states that, which theres none as calvin and luther lived nearly the same time.

and luther was still a catholic priest, and the reformation didnt happent till after his death.

the only church that was around were these then:
greek orthodox
coptic
and the catholic church and maybe russian orthodox.

do any of those believe in limited free will? i know that the coptics and greeks dont and the rcc then didnt.

so what of the russian one?

 

[savedbygrace57]

because you dont believe in free will that is only from calvin! no other person before calvin existed believe that. unless you have some historical facts that the apostles say that or a church that states that, which theres none as calvin and luther lived nearly the same time.

and luther was still a catholic priest, and the reformation didnt happent till after his death.

the only church that was around were these then:
greek orthodox
coptic
and the catholic church and maybe russian orthodox.

do any of those believe in limited free will? i know that the coptics and greeks dont and the rcc then didnt.

so what of the russian one?

So you going to ignore all the effects of Christ death that I pointed out in scripture ? I have nothing else to say to you sir..

 

[Sinthesis]

So we see that Heb 5 9 collaborates rom 5 19b confirming the potency and effects of the Death of Christ. All those Christ died for will be made to obey Him..ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing [voluntary obedience] in the day of thy power,[the power of the Cross]

You do realize there can be no voluntary obedience without freewill, don't you?:rolling
No, of course you don't have the eyes to see that either.2

Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.​

 

[jasoncran]

So you going to ignore all the effects of Christ death that I pointed out in scripture ? I have nothing else to say to you sir..

so once a person is saved according to you? then they can sin all they want. is that what james says?

that isnt quite what some of the early calvinistic believers preached.

that is the whole point if christ be in you then how could you do those things and not have remorse or repent!

faith without works is dead.