S
Solo
Guest
Please answer poll question and post a brief synopsis of your belief and why. Please do not use this thread as a debate thread; only use it as a informational and polling thread.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Imagican
Guest
Since The Word was offered TO 'them that believe' to BE as instruction, there is MUCH evidence that one most definitely CAN loose that which has been offered. In this one statement offered by Paul, we can clearly see that we are NOT offered UNCONDITIONAL Salvation:
Ephesians 5
1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Now Solo, I ask this: Is it POSSIBLE to be 'found', to be 'forgiven', 'to recieve Salvation' at one point in one's walk, and THEN commit the above mentioned acts of disobedience?
Now, if the answer is YES, then what happens IF one performs these WITHOUT forgiveness upon their death?
The words are clear: 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Are YOU of the perception that once one 'comes to the truth' that then they are UNABLE to 'become' one of 'these' as offered above?
Then we have Paul offering that we are to 'run the race' NOT as mere participants, but as if "WE MEAN TO WIN IT". This is pure indication that we are to be persistent and NOT waver. For to DO so is to give heed to the Devil and once this takes place, we are ABLE to LOOSE what ever has been offfered from ABOVE.
It's really that simple.
Since the Word is offered TO 'them that believe' ALL that is contained within it pertains TO them that BELIEVE. And we have MUCH evidence offered that one IS able to LOOSE what they may just as easily be given.
Blessings,
MEC
Ephesians 5
1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Now Solo, I ask this: Is it POSSIBLE to be 'found', to be 'forgiven', 'to recieve Salvation' at one point in one's walk, and THEN commit the above mentioned acts of disobedience?
Now, if the answer is YES, then what happens IF one performs these WITHOUT forgiveness upon their death?
The words are clear: 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Are YOU of the perception that once one 'comes to the truth' that then they are UNABLE to 'become' one of 'these' as offered above?
Then we have Paul offering that we are to 'run the race' NOT as mere participants, but as if "WE MEAN TO WIN IT". This is pure indication that we are to be persistent and NOT waver. For to DO so is to give heed to the Devil and once this takes place, we are ABLE to LOOSE what ever has been offfered from ABOVE.
It's really that simple.
Since the Word is offered TO 'them that believe' ALL that is contained within it pertains TO them that BELIEVE. And we have MUCH evidence offered that one IS able to LOOSE what they may just as easily be given.
Blessings,
MEC
I voted "Yes other" because there is no option for: Yes it can be lost, because salvation is conditional.
I do not believe in "works", so , I had to choose: "Yes , other", as I do not have an option there, that says what I believe.
You should add one that simply states:
Yes it can be lost because salvation is conditional
and then in the "No" section, you must add the opposite choice:
No, it cannot be lost, because salvation is not conditional
These two options, alone would answer all your questions.
C
I do not believe in "works", so , I had to choose: "Yes , other", as I do not have an option there, that says what I believe.
You should add one that simply states:
Yes it can be lost because salvation is conditional
and then in the "No" section, you must add the opposite choice:
No, it cannot be lost, because salvation is not conditional
These two options, alone would answer all your questions.
C
G
Gabe
Guest
Cornelius said:
I agree with Cornelius.
AMEN, Imagican, excellent scriptural reference AND interpretation!
I have already posted,...in a thread of Anna's which now seems to be deleted for some reason?..., that because of the following passage, and many others...
Romans 3:25 KJV
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
...only a Christians past sins are forgiven, once properly atoned.
In Christ,
Pogo
I have already posted,...in a thread of Anna's which now seems to be deleted for some reason?..., that because of the following passage, and many others...
Romans 3:25 KJV
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
...only a Christians past sins are forgiven, once properly atoned.
In Christ,
Pogo
G
Gabe
Guest
Pogo said:
Pogo, I'm not sure which thread you are reffering to, but if it were locked then it would have most likely been moved into Dead Threads.
francisdesales
Member
Cornelius said:
HOLY MOLY, We agree!!! Next, cats and dogs will be hanging out together...
Regards
G
Good News Brown
Guest
To the best of my ability without relying on others' interpretation, and yet utilizing information from others, I picked no. I believe all born again believers are sealed. Are there tough verses that appear contrary at first, yes? But I believe the Bible, unlike a typical instruction manual is meant to study on a continuous basis as opposed to discarding once fully understood. I will however readily agree with anyone who states that we should also seek guidance/enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, because otherwise the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways to where it's meaning is etched in stone to that person. A Jehovah Witness can argue up and down scripture by scripture what they are convinced the Bible's interpretations mean. And as I understand it, they have their own Bible as well of all the audacity. I encountered a person who has/is studying the Bible thoroughly, and is convinced it's all an allegory (Son=Sun, etc.). He probably will never see otherwise unless his spiritual eyes are open which are now apparently completely closed. So, the debate itself, as any, can potentially never become resolved by human reasoning. It can remain locked into a personal/corporate interpretation.
I question the notion of a genuine believer not believing at some point. For instance, the Apostle Paul would have had to of contracted some very strong malaria to have forgotten being knocked off of his donkey and being blind.
What I would say to a new believer at this point, is now that you are one of the few that have found the narrow road (John14:6), you are sealed for eternity. However, get ready to be squeezed like a tube of toothpaste until there's nothing left but Jesus in the meantime. Is it okay to sin now? How often are you willing to place your hand on a hot stove?
I question the notion of a genuine believer not believing at some point. For instance, the Apostle Paul would have had to of contracted some very strong malaria to have forgotten being knocked off of his donkey and being blind.
What I would say to a new believer at this point, is now that you are one of the few that have found the narrow road (John14:6), you are sealed for eternity. However, get ready to be squeezed like a tube of toothpaste until there's nothing left but Jesus in the meantime. Is it okay to sin now? How often are you willing to place your hand on a hot stove?
lovely
Member
I marked, "No to all the above." I am not absolutely sure of anything, though I think some things are true, and some aren't, but am asking God to convince me. I think that obedience and fruit bearing are earmarks of the believer, and so if one abides in Christ in this manner, he will be an overcomer and will have eternal life. He is sealed by the Holy Spirit and in covenant with God.
I still have more questions than answers, though I do think that the overcomer obviously has eternal life.
I think that obedience is the nature of the new man, and that a believer, or overcomer, one who is sealed, is one who abides in Jesus and obeys Him to the end. This man is born again, and alive in Christ, I do not believe he will loose his salvation, because he will be kept by the Lord...he will be warned, chastened, given ears to hear and eyes to see, he will grow and bear fruit, he will love God with all, and love God's children, he will walk in humility and repentance which are part of his new character, he is of the Seed of God. He will continually be led by the Holy Spirit to overcome by God's work, not his own, though as a new man his will follows the right, and so his efforts, affections, mind, etc. will be set on pleasing the Lord. He will not love this world, and he will be hated. He will love the truth and it will saturate his life. etc.
I am not sure of the state of the Apostate, because it seems this person is of the wrong seed, even though he has shared in the benefits of the believers. It also seems like once they deny the witness of the Holy Spirit they can not be forgiven..still studying this.
The false teacher is just not part of Christ...they go out, because they were never of us. They may teach something of truth, but it is always mixed with lies. I believe these people are sons of satan and have a spirit of he Nicolatians.
The backslider can be more than one thing. A believer who falls into temptation, and is chatised by God and disciplined by the body, but this person never denies Christ...they merely struggle with their flesh, and we are told to pray for them. They will return to the Way after being whipped soundly by God, and they will not justify their sin. If they do not return then they fall into the second category.
A 'backslider' look alike is a person who has cleaned their own house in a self-righteous manner, but then returns to their old ways, or vomit, and they end up in a worse state. They tried to come into the fold by a way other than Christ. These people may find grace at some point.
The backslider should be treated as lost so that if they are of the first category they repent and can be restored to the fold...I believe if he is sincerely saved, Jesus will go looking for him. And, if they are of the second they do not continue in the belief that they are saved when they aren't, they are a thief and a robber, and will be cast out unless they come through Christ properly.
The believer will bear the fruit of the seed he is, and he will have eternal security. He will be a believer who boldy comes before the throne, because he has trusted and obeyed God. He will continually walk in repentance, and will not fear the return of our Lord.
I am still studying this, as I said. The Lord bless all of you.
I still have more questions than answers, though I do think that the overcomer obviously has eternal life.
I think that obedience is the nature of the new man, and that a believer, or overcomer, one who is sealed, is one who abides in Jesus and obeys Him to the end. This man is born again, and alive in Christ, I do not believe he will loose his salvation, because he will be kept by the Lord...he will be warned, chastened, given ears to hear and eyes to see, he will grow and bear fruit, he will love God with all, and love God's children, he will walk in humility and repentance which are part of his new character, he is of the Seed of God. He will continually be led by the Holy Spirit to overcome by God's work, not his own, though as a new man his will follows the right, and so his efforts, affections, mind, etc. will be set on pleasing the Lord. He will not love this world, and he will be hated. He will love the truth and it will saturate his life. etc.
I am not sure of the state of the Apostate, because it seems this person is of the wrong seed, even though he has shared in the benefits of the believers. It also seems like once they deny the witness of the Holy Spirit they can not be forgiven..still studying this.
The false teacher is just not part of Christ...they go out, because they were never of us. They may teach something of truth, but it is always mixed with lies. I believe these people are sons of satan and have a spirit of he Nicolatians.
The backslider can be more than one thing. A believer who falls into temptation, and is chatised by God and disciplined by the body, but this person never denies Christ...they merely struggle with their flesh, and we are told to pray for them. They will return to the Way after being whipped soundly by God, and they will not justify their sin. If they do not return then they fall into the second category.
A 'backslider' look alike is a person who has cleaned their own house in a self-righteous manner, but then returns to their old ways, or vomit, and they end up in a worse state. They tried to come into the fold by a way other than Christ. These people may find grace at some point.
The backslider should be treated as lost so that if they are of the first category they repent and can be restored to the fold...I believe if he is sincerely saved, Jesus will go looking for him. And, if they are of the second they do not continue in the belief that they are saved when they aren't, they are a thief and a robber, and will be cast out unless they come through Christ properly.
The believer will bear the fruit of the seed he is, and he will have eternal security. He will be a believer who boldy comes before the throne, because he has trusted and obeyed God. He will continually walk in repentance, and will not fear the return of our Lord.
I am still studying this, as I said. The Lord bless all of you.
lovely
Member
You know, I wanted to clarify something of what I believe...
I do not believe that obedience is conditional, I believe it is the nature and responsiblity of a son of God. Faith is trusting and obeying God. If obedience was a condition, then it would seem like one is expected to 'clean up' before coming to God, or entering into a covenant with Him, instead of being born from a work of God and being conformed into the image of Christ through Him alone. Obedience is a product of the Spirit in us, a work of Christ in us, and otherwise it is works apart from Christ in my mind.
The Lord bless.
I do not believe that obedience is conditional, I believe it is the nature and responsiblity of a son of God. Faith is trusting and obeying God. If obedience was a condition, then it would seem like one is expected to 'clean up' before coming to God, or entering into a covenant with Him, instead of being born from a work of God and being conformed into the image of Christ through Him alone. Obedience is a product of the Spirit in us, a work of Christ in us, and otherwise it is works apart from Christ in my mind.
The Lord bless.
S
Solo
Guest
EXACTLY!!!lovely said:
It is so good to hear a real, live, born again Christian speak the truth with love in their heart.
Thank you lovely for this word. I pray that those who are true believers will hear this truth, and remove themselves from the heresy of the Judaizers.
Solo
destiny
Member
Lovely.. I tend to agree with you to some extent. It's not quite as black and white as we want to believe, because there are stages in where a person is in their walk with God to consider, among other things.
Only God alone can weigh the condition of a persons heart before Him, and He considers motives and things we cannot see or know. I believe we will be surprised when we see some who made it into the Kingdom, and surprised to see some who didn't.
One thing I know, God is more merciful than man. He alone knows the condition and intent of the heart. I have my views on things based on what I see in the word, but God sees so much more than we do and He is perfectly just. We are not.
Only God alone can weigh the condition of a persons heart before Him, and He considers motives and things we cannot see or know. I believe we will be surprised when we see some who made it into the Kingdom, and surprised to see some who didn't.
One thing I know, God is more merciful than man. He alone knows the condition and intent of the heart. I have my views on things based on what I see in the word, but God sees so much more than we do and He is perfectly just. We are not.
Solo,Solo said:
I did not vote, but would like to comment on the Judaizers.
When the Judaizers began to be revealed to me 40+ years ago I was very upset with the actions and influence of them upon the early church, both at Jerusalem and also following behind Paul and reestablishing the customs of Moses among the Gentile believers.
This understanding of their legalistic intrusion into the presentation of the gospel of the Son of God brought me into conflict with the Judaizers within the body of believers wherein I worshipped.
There was a denial of Judaizing, but their reaction to the teaching of imputation revealed their heart.
Now God has given me to see the need for the Judaizers. Their role is like Cain and Esau. They are brothers, born through the same womb (form of godliness). They must necessarily play the role that has been ordained for them and there is a place prepared them of God. We must not curse them for we would be cursing another man's servant. The Lord creates the light and the dark for his purpose.
Remember, Paul shaved his head at Jerusalem for those Judaizers to believe.
Joe
S
Solo
Guest
Post your post in the "Heresy of the Judaizers" thread. This thread is a Poll on Eternal Security.Joe67 said:
Thanks
stovebolts
Member
I voted, "Yes - Other"
If I thought like some on these boards, I would have to pick "No, one cannot loose their salvation"
This will be a short post, and one of my last posts for awhile. Do not expect a response if you reply.
I believe that there is a difference between Justification by Faith (Romans 4) and Salvation (Ephesians 2).
Simply put. We are justified by faith. By Justified, we are declared 'In the Right" with God. This is a present acknowledgment through Jesus in our defense for the coming Judgment. We cannot loose our 'Justification'.
Salvation is how God restores us from our fallen state, and he uses faith as his instrument to do so. Salvation is how God pours his grace out upon us to heal and bind our wounds. Salvation is the process of living life in a manner originally intended for humanity.
Salvation is when somebody comes to your rescue. When your beaten down, weary and tired and somebody offer's you a warm meal and you lay your pride aside and accept the grace offered. Salvation is when enemies and differences are reconciled, when people are no longer being oppressed, the hungry is fed and the orphan and widow are cared for. Salvation is a coming day when every tear will be wiped away by the creator himself. This is salvation.
One can take a piece of bread (salvation) and then refuse to eat it and end up starving himself to death. One can have the opportunity for reconciliation sitting in his lap, but out of pride he chooses division because being right is more important than extending grace. One can loose his salvation and by thus doing so, keep other from being saved.
You see, God needs a body here on earth. And as Christian, we are that Body as often, God uses us to answer the prayers of others and this can be seen by simply looking at who came to your rescue last time you prayed and it was giving? You see, God uses his Body to be his hands and feet, ears and mouth here on earth, now... to answer the prayers of those who cry out to Him.
So, for me, it is clear through scripture that ones salvation can be lost, and it's lost most often by a weakened, or immature faith in a given situation. But a lack of faith only results in a lack of salvation, not one's standing concerning Justification. To lose ones Justification, one would have to loose not only his faith, but his hope to... and I find this an impossibility because God always hears the cries of His people in exile for unbelief, and he always restores the faithful.
I'm sure not everyone will agree... But there ya have it.
Grace and peace.
If I thought like some on these boards, I would have to pick "No, one cannot loose their salvation"
This will be a short post, and one of my last posts for awhile. Do not expect a response if you reply.
I believe that there is a difference between Justification by Faith (Romans 4) and Salvation (Ephesians 2).
Simply put. We are justified by faith. By Justified, we are declared 'In the Right" with God. This is a present acknowledgment through Jesus in our defense for the coming Judgment. We cannot loose our 'Justification'.
Salvation is how God restores us from our fallen state, and he uses faith as his instrument to do so. Salvation is how God pours his grace out upon us to heal and bind our wounds. Salvation is the process of living life in a manner originally intended for humanity.
Salvation is when somebody comes to your rescue. When your beaten down, weary and tired and somebody offer's you a warm meal and you lay your pride aside and accept the grace offered. Salvation is when enemies and differences are reconciled, when people are no longer being oppressed, the hungry is fed and the orphan and widow are cared for. Salvation is a coming day when every tear will be wiped away by the creator himself. This is salvation.
One can take a piece of bread (salvation) and then refuse to eat it and end up starving himself to death. One can have the opportunity for reconciliation sitting in his lap, but out of pride he chooses division because being right is more important than extending grace. One can loose his salvation and by thus doing so, keep other from being saved.
You see, God needs a body here on earth. And as Christian, we are that Body as often, God uses us to answer the prayers of others and this can be seen by simply looking at who came to your rescue last time you prayed and it was giving? You see, God uses his Body to be his hands and feet, ears and mouth here on earth, now... to answer the prayers of those who cry out to Him.
So, for me, it is clear through scripture that ones salvation can be lost, and it's lost most often by a weakened, or immature faith in a given situation. But a lack of faith only results in a lack of salvation, not one's standing concerning Justification. To lose ones Justification, one would have to loose not only his faith, but his hope to... and I find this an impossibility because God always hears the cries of His people in exile for unbelief, and he always restores the faithful.
I'm sure not everyone will agree... But there ya have it.
Grace and peace.