Eternal torment or Annihilation? What happens to the Wicked

[Hobie]

I hope many can join this discussion on the fate of the wicked, as it is a important topic which has been hard to understand, with many pastors and ministers preaching a eternal torment of sinners, saying that the fires there are never quenched or the wicked destroyed. But do the wicked get to live forever too, with the Devil in charge with his minions tormenting the sinners in a underworld, does it mean that the fire doesn't consume. Lets see what the scripture says.

The Devil from the begining has tried to present God as a liar, who does not tell man the truth about sin, which Satan is the father of. Let start with Gen 2:15-17:
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Who was telling the truth, God, or the serpent (Satan)?

Deut 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[Hobie]

So are those people who are “dead†or do not have life as in those in the grave and those without Christ (or those who do not have eternal life) will no longer exist.

Well the answer is simple, in the end, both will end up in the same place. Those without Christ are simply the walking dead. If they will not choose Christ in this life, they will die the second death, which is final. Those of course who have never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, will be judged according their response to the Holy Spirit of God, by way of conviction of sin, and their response to the same.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

How could God who says that He is love, could burn countless billions of people in hell for all eternity, this is not the deciding factor of my conviction. You are simply wrong about there being no evidence for what I believe in the bible. To the contrary, there is far greater scriptural evidence, than for those who believe in eternal torment.

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es.--intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate.--tr. To bring to destruction; destroy.--idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.
Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.
Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished. It is one thing to disagree with a doctrine that scripture teaches, it is another to take up false doctirnes that elevate Satan to the one in charge and leave the wicked to continue forever with him or maybe be 'purified' by him as some believe then go to heaven.

 

[Hobie]

The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Revelation 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God; their eternal state is one of eternal "death" (i.e. separation from God) in sins John 8:21,24.

That the second death is annihilation is shown by the many verses describing what will be eternal in the sense of never to be ressurected or a final death, as God will carry out the wages of sin

Lets read Rev. 20. Only the saved are alive during the thousand years, and the wicked are not cast into the lake of fire until the thousand years is over. So the saints are taken up in the second coming, and the rest who are wicked, that is the unsaved do not live again until the end of the thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age.( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time.), perpetual,
eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age,
perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,
epoch,____this present world.

Considering the above, context is very important. Since the word, or words translated in English as forever, do not always mean the same, it is important to know what the rest of scripture says in relation to any given topic the word is used in, and the context of what is being talked about in relation to the words. Since scripture clearly states that the wicked will come to an end in many places, I can see no good reason to apply eternity to them regarding the use of words, which do not always mean the same. This is only to make the word of God contradict itself. If what we believe makes the word of God contradict itself, then the problem is definitely with what we believe, not the word of God.

Now some try to say that man is immortal, but that is not true, that is the lie that Satan gave at the Garden of Eden. Lets read what scripture say:

1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.

I Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

God has given us eternal life through his Son. This is not something we posses in and of ourselves, but only as we believe in the Son of God. The Lord Jesus Christ, who became one of us, is also verily God and therefore immortal. If we attach ourselves to him, then we to have immortality. This is not however, on account of anything in us, but only because we have accepted the death of the Lord Jesus Christ in our own lives, that the life of the Son might also be in us. Thus the believer inherits eternal life on account of the Son.( Rom. 6:5-11 )

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Hobie]

Lets look at perish again:

per·ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per·ished, per·ish·ing, per·ish·es.--intr. 1. To die or be
destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate.--tr. To bring to destruction; destroy.--idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

The contrast made in the above verses cannot be mistaken. Those who believe in the Son of man will not perish, but will have eternal life. To perish, is to die, to be destroyed, to pass from existence. This truth is repeated two times in a row by the Son of God. The opposite of eternal life, is death, which is non existence. To perish, and to live on through eternity burning in hell, are two very different things. If you have life, then you are alive. It doesn't matter where you are, or what is happening to you, life is life. Non existence is not life. These two things are opposites, and the Lord Jesus Christ uses them to show the difference between believers, and non believers. Non believers will not have life in any form.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The apostle Paul points out clearly when the saved will receive immortality. It is at the resurrection, that is the second coming of Christ, that the saved will receive immortality. Those who must receive immortality, obviously do not posses it in and of themselves. It is at Christ's appearing that death is swallowed up in victory, not before. True enough, eternal life is secure now, for all the saved, but eternal life will not begin until the appointed time.
Death is swallowed up in victory, when the dead are raised and changed from mortal to immortal at the second coming. If in fact, those who die in Christ go right to heaven to be with Christ for eternity, the above verses would make no sense at all. In fact, the bible would be filled with verses that make no sense at all. A biblical doctrine must be based upon the scriptures as a whole, not just a few verses here and there. While there are a few verses in the bible, that seem to suggest the possibility of the immortality of the soul, the scriptural evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here again, the apostle Paul makes it clear, that if their is no resurrection, then all who have fallen asleep,(or died) in Christ are perished. Verse twenty two points out that as all have died in Adam, so will all be made alive in Christ. Verse twenty three points out when all will be made alive, at Christ's coming. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, which is destroyed at the second coming. Again, if the dead in Christ are already alive and in heaven with him, then the above verses not only make no sense, but are a lie. Either the scriptures which we have been discussing are a lie, or the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a lie.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Verse twenty three brings out the contrast again, which cannot be mistaken. The wages of sin is death, which is non existence, not eternal life in hell. On the contrary, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Is God a cheap giver? Would he try to pass off on us something that we already have as a gift that we should appreciate so very much? Of course not. God is not a liar, and his word is the truth. Eternal life is a gift from God to the saved, not something that every individual already has in and of themselves. This is exactly the issue at hand, will we die from the sin of Adam and Eve in the garden or not? Pay attention to the following verses.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is the issue at hand. Is God a liar, or is Satan a liar? What do you think? The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is nothing more than the perpetuation of the first lie which Satan told to the human race. It is an affront to God, and an issue which God himself will address personally at his second coming, and again at the second resurrection. Make no mistake about it, the soul is not immortal. Those who refuse the gift of God in and through his Son, will not have life.
Those who accept this lie as the truth are calling God a liar, as the Devil did, and does continually, for he is the father of lies. To accept this doctrine as truth, is to undermine the authority of God, and separate oneself from him alone who hath immortality. I do not speak of those who believe it in ignorance, but those who refuse the truth of scripture in favor of that which they prefer to believe. Ignorance however, will be no excuse for those who have opportunity to know the truth, but do not care enough to find out about it.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[Hobie]

God alone has immortality. The original sin of Satan was that he wanted to be God, in His place. He may claim immortality for himself, and wish to perpetuate this lie through any means possible, but it will be to no avail. He will come to a complete end. As will all who follow his example. Anyone who claims that they have an immortal soul is defying God, just as Satan himself did, and does to this day. Are you God? If you say that your soul is immortal, then you are saying that you are God, since God alone hath immortality. What more can an individual do, to separate themselves from God? Notice the following.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan is the father of this mind set. He is the original one who wanted to be like God, without being in submission to God. He wanted to be God. Therefore he loves and perpetuates the lie of the immortality of the soul. If in fact, he is immortal, then he is in fact God. All those who believe this mind set are following in his footsteps. Unlike God, Satan does not care how he gets followers, as long as he gets them. If he can trick people into following him by getting them to believe a lie, that’s fine. If he can get people to think that they are worshipping God, when they are really worshipping him, that’s great. Don't follow Satan unwillingly, by believing his lies.

Now lets take a look at the following scriptures which are a dual prophecy concerning the King of Tyrus and Satan. It is obvious from their content, that they refer to the devil himself, his fall from heaven, and his ultimate end.

Ezek 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Satan himself will be no more. So will be the fate of all who refuse the gift which God is offering them through his son. Do not allow Satan to separate you from Christ, through whom you have eternal life, by believing this false doctrine.

 

[glorydaz]

The apostle Paul points out clearly when the saved will receive immortality. It is at the resurrection, that is the second coming of Christ, that the saved will receive immortality. Those who must receive immortality, obviously do not posses it in and of themselves. It is at Christ's appearing that death is swallowed up in victory, not before. True enough, eternal life is secure now, for all the saved, but eternal life will not begin until the appointed time.
Death is swallowed up in victory, when the dead are raised and changed from mortal to immortal at the second coming. If in fact, those who die in Christ go right to heaven to be with Christ for eternity, the above verses would make no sense at all. In fact, the bible would be filled with verses that make no sense at all. A biblical doctrine must be based upon the scriptures as a whole, not just a few verses here and there. While there are a few verses in the bible, that seem to suggest the possibility of the immortality of the soul, the scriptural evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

This is the issue at hand. Is God a liar, or is Satan a liar? What do you think? The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is nothing more than the perpetuation of the first lie which Satan told to the human race. It is an affront to God, and an issue which God himself will address personally at his second coming, and again at the second resurrection. Make no mistake about it, the soul is not immortal. Those who refuse the gift of God in and through his Son, will not have life.
Those who accept this lie as the truth are calling God a liar, as the Devil did, and does continually, for he is the father of lies. To accept this doctrine as truth, is to undermine the authority of God, and separate oneself from him alone who hath immortality. I do not speak of those who believe it in ignorance, but those who refuse the truth of scripture in favor of that which they prefer to believe. Ignorance however, will be no excuse for those who have opportunity to know the truth, but do not care enough to find out about it.

I agree with what you have posted up until this point.

Our soul is attached to our spirit...not our body. The resurrection is for the body, as the soul of the believer has already gone to be with the Lord at our physical death. I believe the souls of the unsaved are held in hades until the judgment when death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. That will be the end of their existance.

To be honest, I've never spent much time considering the fate of the lost. It's enough that they do not have eternal life. As far as I can tell from reading the Word, it is inconsistant with God's nature to have them suffering for eternity in a lake of fire. I agree with the verses that speak of them perishing. But the believer is another matter. We are born of the spirit, and enter into eternal life at that time. Our soul will wait under the throne in the presence of God until Jesus returns and we can enter into His eternal kingdom.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

For the believer, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Neither our soul nor our spirit die, but wait until our body is raised incorruptible at His coming.

 

[mutzrein]

Hobie - what would you say, distinguishes between those who have eternal life and those who don't?

 

[SonByAdoption]

Our soul is attached to our spirit...not our body.

The resurrection is for the body, as the soul of the believer has already gone to be with the Lord at our physical death.

But the believer is another matter. We are born of the spirit, and enter into eternal life at that time. Our soul will wait under the throne in the presence of God until Jesus returns and we can enter into His eternal kingdom.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

For the believer, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Neither our soul nor our spirit die, but wait until our body is raised incorruptible at His coming.

God united Adam's spirit with His body and he "became a living soul."Genesis 2:7 God did not create a human spirit to consciously exist without a body. Is not Christ our example? "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:""Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"Luke 23:46 the crucifixion and John 20:17 the resurrection. Some say that Christ's spirit went to heaven at death and some say it was sleeping in His grave until His resurrection well whatever the case He didn't know anything for the "dead know not anything" Ecclesiasties 9:5

The great millions of Evangelical Christians are teaching you will go to heaven at death but Jesus said that He's coming to take you to heaven and His second coming. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" and what about when He talks about the end time judgment like the wheat and the chaff and the sheep and the goats. All the saints are going to receive their reward at the same time at the first resurrection the dead in Christ and then us who are living. Then after the thousand years all the wicked are going to receive their reward at the same time as the rest of the wicked.

If your soul waits in the throne room it is not going to be alive and thinking. Your spirit without your body is going to be like a tape casket without a tape player. One doesn't work without the other.

The Bible passage you quoted Revelation 6:9-11 where the souls of the Christian martyrs souls crying out for justice is symbolic like how Abel's blood God's first martyr is crying out for justice in Genesis 9:4

Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters--their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred--had joined them. Revelation 6:11 The souls are already sleeping and told to remain sleeping for a little while longer and I believe that's until Christ comes back.

Ah absent from the body present with the Lord. The only single misapplied scripture that Immortal soul believers base their whole false teaching on. I'm sorry Paul did not mean that He was going directly to heaven at death. But He mant that you're going to be asleep not knowing a thing and the years are going to pass by like moments like the person in coma just wakes out of it one day and their last memory is fresh on their mind and they didn't notice the pass of time no matter how long they were unconcious. No matter how many years went by he seems like an instant to them because the very next thing they knew Jesus was calling them out of their grave and pray to God it's the 1st resurection.

Your interpretation of absent from the body present with the Lord is in total contridiction to Paul's earlier teaching in his first letter to the Corinthians

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."1st Corinthians 5:5 N.I.V.

 

[glorydaz]

Our soul is attached to our spirit...not our body.

The resurrection is for the body, as the soul of the believer has already gone to be with the Lord at our physical death.

But the believer is another matter. We are born of the spirit, and enter into eternal life at that time. Our soul will wait under the throne in the presence of God until Jesus returns and we can enter into His eternal kingdom.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

For the believer, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Neither our soul nor our spirit die, but wait until our body is raised incorruptible at His coming.

God united Adam's spirit with His body and he "became a living soul."Genesis 2:7 God did not create a human spirit to consciously exist without a body. Is not Christ our example? "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:""Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"Luke 23:46 the crucifixion and John 20:17 the resurrection. Some say that Christ's spirit went to heaven at death and some say it was sleeping in His grave until His resurrection well whatever the case He didn't know anything for the "dead know not anything" Ecclesiasties 9:5

The great millions of Evangelical Christians are teaching you will go to heaven at death but Jesus said that He's coming to take you to heaven and His second coming. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" and what about when He talks about the end time judgment like the wheat and the chaff and the sheep and the goats. All the saints are going to receive their reward at the same time at the first resurrection the dead in Christ and then us who are living. Then after the thousand years all the wicked are going to receive their reward at the same time as the rest of the wicked.

If your soul waits in the throne room it is not going to be alive and thinking. Your spirit without your body is going to be like a tape casket without a tape player. One doesn't work without the other.

The Bible passage you quoted Revelation 6:9-11 where the souls of the Christian martyrs souls crying out for justice is symbolic like how Abel's blood God's first martyr is crying out for justice in Genesis 9:4

Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters--their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred--had joined them. Revelation 6:11 The souls are already sleeping and told to remain sleeping for a little while longer and I believe that's until Christ comes back.

Ah absent from the body present with the Lord. The only single misapplied scripture that Immortal soul believers base their whole false teaching on. I'm sorry Paul did not mean that He was going directly to heaven at death. But He mant that you're going to be asleep not knowing a thing and the years are going to pass by like moments like the person in coma just wakes out of it one day and their last memory is fresh on their mind and they didn't notice the pass of time no matter how long they were unconcious. No matter how many years went by he seems like an instant to them because the very next thing they knew Jesus was calling them out of their grave and pray to God it's the 1st resurection.

Your interpretation of absent from the body present with the Lord is in total contridiction to Paul's earlier teaching in his first letter to the Corinthians

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."1st Corinthians 5:5 N.I.V.

Ah yes, everything is a "false teaching" when it doesn't agree with someone's personal theory.
Is it possible to compare scripture without accusing someone of preaching a false doctrine? I'm beginning to wonder.

Please tell me how you would interpret...to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord. I'd be interested in hearing that one.

The verse you cite says nothing of the spirit ever being asleep.

It's talking about putting a sinner out of fellowship so he will change his ways.
Along the lines of this verse.

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or this one...

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

The spirit without the body being compared to a "tape casket without a tape player" is certainly novel, but it doesn't agree with Scripture.

Before you base too much doctrine on Ecclesiastes, you should know that it is not God's arguments, but God's record of man's arguments. If you read much of that book you'll see what the great Solomon went through in all his wisdom. "Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity"... It's a book of the wisdom of man who finally, at the very end of the book gives glory to God. You'd be wise, yourself, if you searched all of scripture before you conclude either the soul or the spirit sleeps. There are some cults that hold that view, but not many Christians.

Now here, Solomon gets it right.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[SonByAdoption]

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth"Ecc.12:7;Ecc3:21

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecc.9:5,6

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave/Sheol, whither thou goest."Ecc.9:10

Everything King Solomon wrote in the Bible is true. What gives you the right to ignore a bible fact just because you don't agree with it. After I read your post accusing me of not searching the scriptures I've read Ecclesiasties 12 short chapters for my daily Bible study and I havent found one verse that wasn't true.

"...This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God. ""For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom...""I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked"Ecc 2:24,26 and 3:14

"you should know that it is not God's arguments, but God's record of man's arguments. If you read much of that book you'll see what the great Solomon went through in all his wisdom."

Solomon's wisdom was given him by God. You're the one who's suffering from man's wisdom. Don't you know that Solomon back slid and did all those awful things with all those pagans and did you know all pagans have in common. They all believe in man's natural immortality and falling into satan's lie that man can sin against God and still be immortal. Well Adam and Eve got kicked out of Eden so they couldn't eat the tree of life and be immortal and they've been sleeping ever since their death and they will be right with you when Jesus comes back and you will all go to heaven at the same time and then you will eat the tree of life and be immortal.
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."Rev 22:14

Maybe King Solomon isn't inspired enough for you but he was good enough for a couple of our greatest protestant reformers. Why not google search Martin Luther and William Tyndale state of the dead.

"Please tell me how you would interpret...to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord. I'd be interested in hearing that one."

"...our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."2nd Peter 3:15,16

You are right. It definitely does seem that Paul is saying that he's going to heaven as soon as he dies but should I just go with this one verse and run with it or should I take into consideration what the rest of Paul's teaching states and the rest of the whole bible."For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"Isaiah 28:10
King Solomon didn't start that teaching of "the dead know nothing" He learned it from his dad.

King David
"The dead don't praise Yahweh, neither any who go down into silence"Psalms 115:17 World English bible
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."Psalms 146:4"
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

King Hezekiah
"For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." Isaiah 38:18

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."1st Cor 5:5

"The verse you cite says nothing of the spirit ever being asleep.It's talking about putting a sinner out of fellowship so he will change his ways."

Disfellowshipping a back slidden saint so that his spirit can be saved on the day of his death or when does it say that his spirit will be saved?

"Along the lines of this verse.1 Corinthians 1:8 wrote: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Thank you for this verse. This is exactly my point. When do we want to be found blameless as soon as we die or Christ's second coming the first resurrection. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power"Rev 20:5

The Apostle Paul and Jesus were Jews who believed and taught the ressurection and saints being saved on that day. Theses Jews did not have Paul's letter "Absent from the body" or John's revelation about souls by the throne. They teached and preached about the Messiah from the old testament so I know they quoted Job.

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:" Job 9:25,26

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."John 14:1-4

Your personal theory that the believer goes to heaven as soon as he dies is contracdictory to Christ's teaching and that's all that has to be said.

Again the sleeping souls crying out by God's throne is symbolic. Here's an excerpt from one of my favorite articles on the issue. The Wicked Dead: Are They Now Being Punished?
by Elder J. N. Andrews http://www.present-truth.net/newsletter ... _aug04.htm

"The dead are personified and made to speak and act in reference to the facts of their respective cases as though they were alive. Why should not the Spirit of God do this when it has seen fit to personify every kind of inanimate thing? Thus the blood of Abel cried to God. (Genesis 4) The stone by the sanctuary heard all the words of Israel. (Joshua 24) The trees held an election and made speeches. (Judges 9) The thistle proposes a matrimonial alliance with the cedar. (2 Kings 14; 2 Chronicles 25) All the trees sing out at the presence of God. (1 Chronicles 16) The stone cries out of the wall, and the beam answers it. (Habakkuk 2) The hire of the laborers kept back by fraud, cries to God. (James 5) Dead Abel yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11) The souls under the altar slain for their testimony and who do not live till the first resurrection, cry to God for vengeance. (Revelation 6; 20) And finally death and hades are both personified,—the one riding a pale horse, the other following, and both cutting down mankind. And this personification is still further carried out, when both, as though living enemies, are at last cast into the fire of gehenna. (Revelation 6; 20; 1 Corinthians 15; Hosea 13:14)"

Again Jesus's spirit went to heaven at the cross but he didn't know it for at his resurection He said I have not ascended to my Father.

My friend what if you change your mind and believe that you don't go to heaven until Jesus comes back for you. What are you loosing? Nothing. But what if you keep this belief about immortal souls. You are leaving yourself open for deceptions from Satan and his angels. If they can disguise themselves as angels of light. Why can't they disguise their selves as your dead love ones and you believe them because they say all the right things. They've studied you all your life. They know what to say what only you think that you and that dead one know. Please develop a love of the truth my friend so God doesn't give you up to strong delusions. Don't you know that the Bible was taken away for over a thousand years and alot of pagan traditions were brought into the Christians church sunday worship/immortal soul/ etc. We have the Bible and all these Bible study resources at our fingertips. What excuse will we have?

 

[glorydaz]

Everything King Solomon wrote in the Bible is true. What gives you the right to ignore a bible fact just because you don't agree with it. After I read your post accusing me of not searching the scriptures I've read Ecclesiasties 12 short chapters for my daily Bible study and I havent found one verse that wasn't true.

Solomon's wisdom was given him by God. You're the one who's suffering from man's wisdom. Don't you know that Solomon back slid and did all those awful things with all those pagans and did you know all pagans have in common. They all believe in man's natural immortality and falling into satan's lie that man can sin against God and still be immortal. Well Adam and Eve got kicked out of Eden so they couldn't eat the tree of life and be immortal and they've been sleeping ever since their death and they will be right with you when Jesus comes back and you will all go to heaven at the same time and then you will eat the tree of life and be immortal.

My, my.....

This reminds me of those who take the words of Job's friends as the gospel and God says otherwise..

And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

As I told you, Ecc. is God's record of man's wisdom. The preacher was giving all the arguments man uses...the point was to show man's thinking on any given matter. You may believe whatever you like, but I certainly have the "right" to share what I've learned from the Word. You have the "right" to reject it, but you might want to consider your methods of disagreement. I'm not interested in reading some web-site to obtain understanding from the opinions of any man. I could post all kinds of "documentation" to prove my point, but I prefer to share what the Lord has been showing me over the years. Dismiss it if you please. I'm not forcing you to read what I say. I could give you many examples, but I can see you aren't in a receptive frame of mind.

Solomon says, "He that increaseth in knowledge increaseth sorrow". He's displaying the wisdom of men. That's the whole point of the book. Vanity of vanity....all of life is vanity. Get it?

I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Shall we look at God's wisdom on the matter?

When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;

Maybe King Solomon isn't inspired enough for you but he was good enough for a couple of our greatest protestant reformers. Why not google search Martin Luther and William Tyndale state of the dead.

Your personal theory that the believer goes to heaven as soon as he dies is contracdictory to Christ's teaching and that's all that has to be said.

Put forth the Word instead of your opinion. I'd love to see where Christ claims what you do.

My friend what if you change your mind and believe that you don't go to heaven until Jesus comes back for you. What are you loosing? Nothing. But what if you keep this belief about immortal souls. You are leaving yourself open for deceptions from Satan and his angels. If they can disguise themselves as angels of light. Why can't they disguise their selves as your dead love ones and you believe them because they say all the right things. They've studied you all your life. They know what to say what only you think that you and that dead one know. Please develop a love of the truth my friend so God doesn't give you up to strong delusions. Don't you know that the Bible was taken away for over a thousand years and alot of pagan traditions were brought into the Christians church sunday worship/immortal soul/ etc. We have the Bible and all these Bible study resources at our fingertips. What excuse will we have?

I am not the least bit worried about being deceived by Satan. I learned early in my Christian walk He who is in me is greater than he that is in the world. God has not given us a spirit of fear.. but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[Hobie]

Hobie - what would you say, distinguishes between those who have eternal life and those who don't?

The Holy Spirit bringing you to and accepting Christ, as simple as that.

 

[Hobie]

Our soul is attached to our spirit...not our body.

The resurrection is for the body, as the soul of the believer has already gone to be with the Lord at our physical death.

But the believer is another matter. We are born of the spirit, and enter into eternal life at that time. Our soul will wait under the throne in the presence of God until Jesus returns and we can enter into His eternal kingdom.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

For the believer, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Neither our soul nor our spirit die, but wait until our body is raised incorruptible at His coming.

God united Adam's spirit with His body and he "became a living soul."Genesis 2:7 God did not create a human spirit to consciously exist without a body. Is not Christ our example? "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:""Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"Luke 23:46 the crucifixion and John 20:17 the resurrection. Some say that Christ's spirit went to heaven at death and some say it was sleeping in His grave until His resurrection well whatever the case He didn't know anything for the "dead know not anything" Ecclesiasties 9:5

The great millions of Evangelical Christians are teaching you will go to heaven at death but Jesus said that He's coming to take you to heaven and His second coming. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" and what about when He talks about the end time judgment like the wheat and the chaff and the sheep and the goats. All the saints are going to receive their reward at the same time at the first resurrection the dead in Christ and then us who are living. Then after the thousand years all the wicked are going to receive their reward at the same time as the rest of the wicked.

If your soul waits in the throne room it is not going to be alive and thinking. Your spirit without your body is going to be like a tape casket without a tape player. One doesn't work without the other.

The Bible passage you quoted Revelation 6:9-11 where the souls of the Christian martyrs souls crying out for justice is symbolic like how Abel's blood God's first martyr is crying out for justice in Genesis 9:4

Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters--their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred--had joined them. Revelation 6:11 The souls are already sleeping and told to remain sleeping for a little while longer and I believe that's until Christ comes back.

Ah absent from the body present with the Lord. The only single misapplied scripture that Immortal soul believers base their whole false teaching on. I'm sorry Paul did not mean that He was going directly to heaven at death. But He mant that you're going to be asleep not knowing a thing and the years are going to pass by like moments like the person in coma just wakes out of it one day and their last memory is fresh on their mind and they didn't notice the pass of time no matter how long they were unconcious. No matter how many years went by he seems like an instant to them because the very next thing they knew Jesus was calling them out of their grave and pray to God it's the 1st resurection.

Your interpretation of absent from the body present with the Lord is in total contridiction to Paul's earlier teaching in his first letter to the Corinthians

"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."1st Corinthians 5:5 N.I.V.

Powerful my brother..

 

[SonByAdoption]

Glorydaz my friend why are you stuck on Solomon?

You picked on one fault that you had with me that I believed that Solomon was inspired to write Ecclesiastes and you ignored all my other points. Please Please :help go back and review my previous post and learn that the truth about the state of the dead was not invented by Solomon but passed down from his dad David. Totally destroying your argument that Solomon's teaching on the subject can't be trusted. Because King Hezekiah says the same thing and so does Job who you claim to believe so how many witnesses do you need? Even if you don't believe Solomon, will you discredit all these other godly men as well because they disagree with you that spirits exist consciously without their bodies?

"My, my.....
This reminds me of those who take the words of Job's friends as the gospel and God says otherwise.."

So you believe Job? Very very good to know. Let him be your teacher and forsake your man made traditions about ghosts and phantoms and an eternal burning hell.

Job's believed that the wicked would rest in peace until judgement day when they are resurrected

"That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Job 21:30 KJV

Peter believed the same thing and he quotes Job passage almost word for word.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:""But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men ."

2nd Peter 2:9 and 2nd Peter3:7KJV

Job believed that God's people won't go to heaven at death but instead sleep peacefully waiting to see their Redeemer in their bodies.

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

Job 19:25-27

Jesus our Redeemer preached the same thing as Job did that we will go to heaven in our bodies when He is ready for us when He comes to get us at His 2nd coming and not before.
John 14:1-4 which I have quoted in both of my posts to you which you have ignored both times.

Your personal theory that the believer goes to heaven as soon as he dies is contracdictory to Christ's teaching and that's all that has to be said."

"Put forth the Word instead of your opinion. I'd love to see where Christ claims what you do."

I'm not telling you anything new. I'm sure you're very familiar with the passage John 14:1-4 where Jesus promises us that he's building us mansions in heaven and one day he will come again and take us there. Well despite what some people might have told you. Jesus has not come back yet and therefor your dead love ones are resting unconsciously dreamlessly and peacefully waiting for the voice of the one who called Himself the Resurrection and the life.

Please review Christ's parable of the wheat and the tares Matthew 13:24-30,39-43

False prophets preach that God's wheat goes to heaven as soon as it dies but Jesus says no
"...the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."Matthew 13:39

Please review Christ's end time prophecy about sheep and goats Matthew 25:31-46

False prophets preach that God's sheep go to heaven as soon as it dies but Jesus says no this happens" When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ""Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"Matthew 25:31,34

I pray to our Heavenly Father that we will both be on Christ's right hand when He comes back to claim us whether we be dead and sleeping in the grave or alive at the time.

 

[change]

WHAT IS A SOUL?: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7).

A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul can not exsist unless body and breath are combined.

 

[Ahuli]

Hobie - what would you say, distinguishes between those who have eternal life and those who don't?

Or, when will you find out for sure that you have eternal life or not? Are there people who know they don't have it? I would like to know, thank you.

 

[Ahuli]

WHAT IS A SOUL?: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7).

A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul can not exsist unless body and breath are combined.

There are people who will go to the utmost part of the universe to deny that fact. And when you show them where the "immortal" soul originates, even tho the bible says God only has immortality, they will tell you in too many words that it doesn't mean what it says, it is interpreted incorrectly, and that it is more than possible that pagans also had some truth.

Therefore, the old adage that you can take a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink is alive and well. I call that denominationalism, which is quite often a fatal affliction.

 

[Bick]

Hi Hobie. You have opened a subject that needs studying and understanding of the literal meaning of many key words and phrases. And many are discussed in the other posts.

This and similar subjects have been made clear to me through some excellent pastors/teachers in the past. May I outline the important points.

IMMORTAL SOUL? No! Man became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into prepared body (Gen. 2:7). A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. It is not joined to man's spirit.

MAN'S SPIRIT: The spirit in man may be defined as his life force, and is related to breath (Job 32:8; 33:4). God's creative spirit is our breath.
"If He withdrew His spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to dust."
Job 34:14.
As we breathe, the Lord forms our spirit within us (Zech. 12:1).
When we expire, breathing our last, our breath (spirit-life force) returns to God who gave it (Ecc. 12:7).

NO LIFE DURING DEATH. Certainly, there is LIFE AFTER DEATH, when one is resurrected.
In death, the grave, there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise:
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?" (Psa. 6:5).
"What profit wil there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?" (Psa. 30:9).
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." (Psa. 115:17).
"For the lining know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything..." (Ecc. 9:5).

More coming.

 

[Mohrb]

IMO, the point of "eternal destruction" isn't that "the process of destruction will last forever" ... but that people who fail the final judgement will be destroyed without a hope for resurrection... that their destruction will be final.

Think of when Jesus raised Lazarus from death. Jesus didn't say that Lazarus was in heaven (or hell)... if Lazarus had already been judged, it wouldn't have been fair at all to bring Lazarus back. By being called a friend and all that, I'd imagine he wouldn't have gone to a hell... so how cruel would it have been if Jesus brought him back from heaven to continue a weak, imperfect life... experience death again, and take the chance that some circumstance may occur where he could be tempted into sin and go to a hell?

Instead, Jesus compare the state of death as "sleep." Not alive in any way... but in a state where his life COULD be restored. When we die, it's still possible for God to restore us, and he eventually will after Armegeddon.

Eternal destruction, or "the second death" is when people aren't just "asleep in death" ... but unmade. Gone forever.

What would be the point of keeping a soul alive only to torture it forever?

 

[Hobie]

Well lets go into those subjects, let me start a thread on 'What is a soul?"

Here is the link for those who want to read it:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47345&p=575943#p575943