Evidence For God (I'd love to hear feedback)

[childeye]

How can you use the term absolute when the documentary and the book clearly shows that the idea of God has developed over time? Why do people need absolutes? If people had accepted Thor as the creator of thunder as an absolute we wouldn't even have meteorology. You are childeye and why you are here and how you got here your parents can answer.

That last part was funny Artie. I like funny, and I like to laugh. That is an absolute. The documentary described god as an absolute. Science seeks to prove what is absolute. There must be something that is true or everything is false. All of mathematics is based on the assumption that there is an absolute. Without an absolute there is no knowledge. Why am I here and who am I, are about knowing one's self, and for this we must come to understand that in the moral matters of who we are, God or Love is a moral imperative not an idea.

 

[Artie]

in the moral matters of who we are, God or Love is a moral imperative not an idea.

So the quote below would be a Moral Absolute or a moral imperative or Gods Truth?

"Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it."

bible.org

 

[BrenchStevens]

Have you got an example?

An example of a miracle?

There was an evangelist that came to our church and told the story of how his mother got an ear infection and ended up having to have her eardrum removed from one ear. She was without an eardrum for quite some time. Then, during a revival at her church, she was prayed for in the name of Jesus. Immediately, she felt an itch in her ear, and began to hear muffles in the ear that had had the eardrum removed. She went to the doctor, and there was a new eardrum in that ear, and she eventually had full hearing in the ear that had had the eardrum removed.

There was a woman in Mississippi born without eardrums. She was prayed for in the name of Jesus, and she began to be able to hear. God gave her eardrums.

There was a veteran who had been wounded in battle, and had a steel pin in his back. He had severe back pain. During a church service, he started doing back flips, and the pain was gone. He went to the VA hospital the next day, and had them do an X-ray. The steel pin was gone, and his back was in perfect condition.

A woman at my church was once instantly transported 500 miles. She was crossing a bridge in Mississippi and was transported to her home in Missouri. She was crossing the bridge and awakened at her home parked in her driveway.

In August of 2009, I had a sinus infection that caused my sinus cavity to swell, putting pressure on my eye. Mucus was oozing out of my eye socket, causing great discomfort. Some of the mucus had gone down into my lungs and I had a bad cough as well. I went to church that Sunday morning and went up front for prayer. I was prayed for and nothing happened. I asked for prayer that night during evening service and again nothing happened. Then, on my way home, while driving, I was coughing on every breath I took. I got tired of it and took authority over the infection, calling out in the name of Jesus to be healed. I felt the power of God sweep over me like I did when I was filled with His Spirit on April 26, 2009. Immediately, I felt the pressure behind my eye go away. My cough eased up. In two days, having taken no medication whatsoever, I was back to normal.

There are many more miracles recorded in the books "They Speak With Other Tongues" by John Sherrill, "Spiritual Gifts" by David Bernard, "The Phenomenon of Pentecost" by Frank Ewart, and "The Winds of God" by Ethel Goss.

 

[childeye]

So the quote below would be a Moral Absolute or a moral imperative or Gods Truth?

"Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it."

bible.org

Actually no. What you are describing is an abomination even as all sin is. Love is the heartfelt empathy for others.

 

[Artie]

An example of a miracle?

I think we misunderstand each other. These are all stories of miracles not miracles in themselves. I meant are there any records of miracles happening under proper scientifically controlled conditions where there is no possibility of tampering with the evidence or mistaken eye witnesses? Has anyone in a hospital ever witnessed a new eardrum appear or grow out as it did so? If a woman missing an eardrum went to a hospital, her ear was photographed by high speed cameras and an eardrum appeared from nowhere as she was prayed for, that would be a confirmed miracle. It would revolutionize medical science if it could be replicated. If it appeared out of nowhere we would have to assume that something had made atoms and molecules out of nothing and formed them into an eardrum and also attached the eardrum to the patients tissue. Or maybe the atoms and molecules came from the patients tissue and was formed into an eardrum to avoid rejection? Or we could assume that the eardrum was taken from someone else and that rejection was dealt with at the same time? Fascinating.

Would it be possible to build "churches" on hospital property where people diagnosed with certain illnesses could go to services and be prayed for and healed and thereafter be checked by hospital staff as a part of the regular hospital service? Has it been done already?

 

[Artie]

Actually no. What you are describing is an abomination even as all sin is. Love is the heartfelt empathy for others.

Yes but what God is saying is it a "Moral Absolute or a moral imperative"? I can't think of anything more "Morally Absolute" than this statement. What "heartfelt empathy" does God feel for homosexuals?

 

[childeye]

Yes but what God is saying is it a "Moral Absolute or a moral imperative"? I can't think of anything more "Morally Absolute" than this statement. What "heartfelt empathy" does God feel for homosexuals?

You are getting into a deeper theological thought and circumventing the fundamentals. I retierate that homosexuality or any sin is not a moral imperative compared to Loving others as you would want to be loved. But I will answer you this way. God's Love is such that he endured torture and death and yet forgave those who did it. So also did Jesus say that those who were forgiven much Love the master more than those forgiven little and that is why many of the last will be first in the Kingdom of God. Do you understand that?

 

[Artie]

You are getting into a deeper theological thought and circumventing the fundamentals. I retierate that homosexuality or any sin is not a moral imperative compared to Loving others as you would want to be loved. But I will answer you this way. God's Love is such that he endured torture and death and yet forgave those who did it. So also did Jesus say that those who were forgiven much Love the master more than those forgiven little and that is why many of the last will be first in the Kingdom of God. Do you understand that?

No sorry I don't. And I don't circumvent the fundamentals. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)" It is clear that God wants homosexuals dead. That is pretty fundamental. Yet God is Love. But not Love for homosexuals, that is also clear. So Gods Love cannot possibly be an absolute. That would also include homosexuals.

 

[eddy]

No sorry I don't. And I don't circumvent the fundamentals. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)" It is clear that God wants homosexuals dead. That is pretty fundamental. Yet God is Love. But not Love for homosexuals, that is also clear. So Gods Love cannot possibly be an absolute. That would also include homosexuals.

So God doesn't love people who get a divorce and remarry thus committing adultery? That sin was death as well. Adultery is also an abomination.

 

[WIP]

I think we misunderstand each other. These are all stories of miracles not miracles in themselves. I meant are there any records of miracles happening under proper scientifically controlled conditions where there is no possibility of tampering with the evidence or mistaken eye witnesses? How about childbirth?

Has anyone in a hospital ever witnessed a new eardrum appear or grow out as it did so? If a woman missing an eardrum went to a hospital, her ear was photographed by high speed cameras and an eardrum appeared from nowhere as she was prayed for, that would be a confirmed miracle. It would revolutionize medical science if it could be replicated. If you had the faith of a mustard seed you could do this yourself.

If it appeared out of nowhere we would have to assume that something had made atoms and molecules out of nothing and formed them into an eardrum and also attached the eardrum to the patients tissue. Or maybe the atoms and molecules came from the patients tissue and was formed into an eardrum to avoid rejection? Or we could assume that the eardrum was taken from someone else and that rejection was dealt with at the same time? Fascinating. Life, our very existence, our ability to speak, breath, run, walk, jump, cry, dance, reason, think, hate, despise, care, and love is a miracle beyond explanation and it all came from nothing more than the will of God.

Would it be possible to build "churches" on hospital property where people diagnosed with certain illnesses could go to services and be prayed for and healed and thereafter be checked by hospital staff as a part of the regular hospital service? Has it been done already? There are many Christian hospitals throughout the world where this is done. The hospital where my wife had her back surgery has a chapel on site to serve the spiritual needs of its patient’s.

Naturally, you have the freedom to take my word for this but I will share a personal witness. I am a member of a men's chorus. The leader of our group is about my age give or take, studies some martial arts, jogs, and otherwise exercises regularly so he is in pretty good condition. I'm 52 by the way. My experience with this person has shown me that he loves God and I believe the story I'm about to tell is a testament to his love of others and to God's love. He tells this story much better than I can.


About two years ago in mid-winter, I don't recall the exact time period, he had begun to notice some problems with muscle spasms in his left leg especially while jogging. These spasms would come and go and he didn't give them too much thought. I know I've experienced muscle twitches from time to time too so I can understand what he meant. On this one particular winter morning on his way to work he was driving down MN-65 near Marshall, MN which has a 65mph speed limit. This is a relatively busy stretch of road especially during the morning commute. All of a sudden he began to experience one of those spasms in his left leg but this time it was worse than normal. The next thing he knew the right side of his body became completely rigid and uncontrolled, pushing the accelerator to the floor. He was unable to steer the car by his own accord but he was fully conscious and aware of what was happening. He said he remembered swerving into the lane with on-coming traffic and has no idea how he didn't end up in a head-on collision. The car finally veered off the road and into the ditch on the right side fitting nicely between a power line pole and another metal post before coming to a stop due to the amount of snow in the ditch. Another driver witnessed this and came to his aid.



What he had experienced was a severe grand mal seizure. He had no history of epilepsy and further examination revealed that he had a rather large cancerous tumor that had inter-twined with his brain so much that his condition was inoperable. I believe he was told he had up to maybe two years to live but I can’t say that with absolute certainty. I do know that it was not a favorable prognosis.


The doctors suggested various options for him to consider and he chose to undergo radiation and chemotherapy treatments in the hopes of slowing down the progress. There are too many things that took place since that time to share here but to make a long story short he went through a period of mixed emotions until one day he came to the realization that he was going to live. He didn’t know for sure where this was coming from but he just knew it.

Our chorus practices once a month and he drives two hours to come to be our director. I witnessed how he grew weaker and weaker with each practice session for over a year. He spent a lot of his time sharing his story with others and tying it together with how his strength and trust in God keeps him going. Our chorus would place hands on him and pray for him, we kept him in our prayers at church, and I’m sure others as well as me also prayed for him individually. After about a year things began to change. He began to get stronger and his spirits rose even higher. Today he is still directing our chorus and at last report the tumor has begun to shrink and become less active. The doctors have no explanation for this change but he does. He’ll tell you without a blink of an eye it was God and that God has a purpose for him to fulfill yet here on this earth. I think that purpose is to share the love of God with others and he is doing a terrific job.

 

[Artie]

So God doesn't love people who get a divorce and remarry thus committing adultery? That sin was death as well. Adultery is also an abomination.

Really? I didn't know that. I found it: ""'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." Leviticus 20:10 The God of the old Testament seems very eager to have people put to death...

 

[Artie]

@WIP

I'm having trouble with the quotes, fonts and formatting and can't answer in detail. Could you use simpler formatting? For now I'll simply say that are you and BrenchStevens unaware that what you call miracles happen all over the world to anyone regardless of religion or creed? They even happen to atheists. It's just that Christians attribute them to God while others attribute them to whichever god they happen to believe in. Atheists often attribute medical "miracles" to the body's ability to heal itself and the placebo effect etc etc. If an atheist experiences some medical "miracle" as described here is God still responsible?

 

[childeye]

No sorry I don't. And I don't circumvent the fundamentals. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)" It is clear that God wants homosexuals dead. That is pretty fundamental. Yet God is Love. But not Love for homosexuals, that is also clear. So Gods Love cannot possibly be an absolute. That would also include homosexuals.

No you are wrong. In fact, so wrong you are backwards. The moral imperative is the other direction than you are describing. Your examination of scripture is an Old Testament perspective which was under the adminstration of Satanic powers and these powers crucified the Christ and so put to death God Himself come in the flesh. If you believe what you say, you too are under the same Satanic influence that despises the Love of God and crucified the Christ.

 

[Artie]

No you are wrong. In fact, so wrong you are backwards. The moral imperative is the other direction than you are describing. Your examination of scripture is an Old Testament perspective which was under the adminstration of Satanic powers and these powers crucified the Christ and so put to death God Himself come in the flesh. If you believe what you say, you too are under the same Satanic influence that despises the Love of God and crucified the Christ.

I have always thought that all Christians believed that the whole Bible is inspired by God and not by Satan... you still appear to use the term Love of God even though I've shown pretty clearly that He doesn't have much love for homosexuals or adulterers... I don't despise anything I just question why a God of Love would want homosexuals and adulterers killed...

 

[childeye]

I have always thought that all Christians believed that the whole Bible is inspired by God and not by Satan... you still appear to use the term Love of God even though I've shown pretty clearly that He doesn't have much love for homosexuals or adulterers... I don't despise anything I just question why a God of Love would want homosexuals and adulterers killed...

As I said, you are getting into deeper theology. The scriptures are inspired by God but what you don't understand is the purpose of God that He is accomplishing through men and angels in temporal time and space. Here, let me blow your mind a little. Read Romans 1:26-27 where God actually made homosexuals. And then ponder why he would make someone become an abomination. If you are seriously interested I will tell you what I have learned, what I believe and why I believe it.

 

[jonesma23]

Among a list of beastiality, incest and rape, Leviticus states homosexuality/ lesbianism as an equal perversion of what sex is intended to be.

I think the idea of associating hatred with Hebrew law, in this case (Leviticus) being a cultural statement of what is expected and what is clean is laughable.

If you commit tax fraud, the government doesn't suddenly feel intense hatred for you. They simply charge you. You broke the rules.


Maybe what you're trying to say, Artie, is that the way fanaticals today (and for the last couple centuries, I admit) have treated homosexuals is with an air of superiority and hatred. And yes, that's true. There is a lot of hate. But what you and I should be doing together is correcting these people, because they are using a faith that clearly states they are supposed to offer love to those who they consider to be doing wrong to torment said wrongdoers.

Your frustration, as far as I can tell, is misdirected. Be mad at the people, Artie. They're obviously insecure.

 

[Artie]

Your frustration, as far as I can tell, is misdirected. Be mad at the people, Artie. They're obviously insecure.

I am a free thinker. I see that the individual Christian has his own idea of God and Jesus and how the Bible should be interpreted. Whatever the individual Christian believes in he can interpret Gods word in a way that supports his beliefs.

From http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective

"Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it."

"the two terms, "gay" and "Christian" are mutually exclusive, incompatible, incongruous."

Despite this there are many homosexual Christians. How can that be if there's any absolute truth? It shows that the truth is whatever Christians want it to be.

Another example is of course creation. Christians want people to believe that God created the universe while they fight among themselves about how He actually did it. Again there's no absolute truth, it just depends on the opinion of the particular Christian. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html if there is an absolute truth what the heck are they all disagreeing about?

I could go on and on but I have made my point. When you are debating Christianity you aren't debating an absolute, just what the particular person you debate with believes. You can be against homosexuality, you can be for homosexuality doesn't matter you can always find something in the Bible justifying your beliefs.

 

[childeye]

=Artie;577808]I am a free thinker.

if there is an absolute truth what the heck are they all disagreeing about?

This is the smartest thing you have said so far, Artie. There is hope for you. What you are witnessing is the absolute in battle with many false absolutes. The Truth of God against many lies. No one's a freethinker unless they see the Truth and even then they are bound by it, they either see the Truth or are deceived and lies exist to shroud the Truth. The Gospel is about preaching that Truth that the founder of lies does not want seen.
Get this. Not only are Gay people considered abominations under the law but Jesus himself was crucified according to the law. The Truth of God was put to death by the law of God.

 

[BrenchStevens]

@WIP

I'm having trouble with the quotes, fonts and formatting and can't answer in detail. Could you use simpler formatting? For now I'll simply say that are you and BrenchStevens unaware that what you call miracles happen all over the world to anyone regardless of religion or creed? They even happen to atheists. It's just that Christians attribute them to God while others attribute them to whichever god they happen to believe in. Atheists often attribute medical "miracles" to the body's ability to heal itself and the placebo effect etc etc. If an atheist experiences some medical "miracle" as described here is God still responsible?

I could understand how you might deny WIP's miracle (no offense, WIP), but how do you deny someone being transported 500 miles? How do you deny the instant formation of eardrums in someone born without eardrums (someone born without eardrums would know)? How do you deny the repair of someone's back, including the removal of a steel pin, with X-rays showing before and after (no human ability to heal itself could totally remove a steel pin)?

You claim that what we "call miracles happen all over the world to anyone regardless of religion or creed? They even happen to atheists." Can you list even one of these instances? If not, would you care to retract your statement?

 

[Artie]

I could understand how you might deny WIP's miracle (no offense, WIP), but how do you deny someone being transported 500 miles? How do you deny the instant formation of eardrums in someone born without eardrums (someone born without eardrums would know)? How do you deny the repair of someone's back, including the removal of a steel pin, with X-rays showing before and after (no human ability to heal itself could totally remove a steel pin)?

You claim that what we "call miracles happen all over the world to anyone regardless of religion or creed? They even happen to atheists." Can you list even one of these instances? If not, would you care to retract your statement?

First please provide me with irrefutable medical proof corroborated by independent witnesses and physical evidence along with statements from independent medical experts that any of your miracles actually are miracles and not just stories. Isn't the Catholic Church an authority on miracles? Have they approved any of them?