Evidence For God (I'd love to hear feedback)

[jonesma23]

First please provide me with irrefutable medical proof corroborated by independent witnesses and physical evidence along with statements from independent medical experts that any of your miracles actually are miracles and not just stories.

The following is not typed in any emotion other than manner of fact. ;)

I don't know if you have talked about how you approach subjects of faith, but that statement in no way falls under the category of an OPEN MINDED STANCE. Not one that I am familiar with. please enlighten me, because I am simply gathering from your words that nothing less than mannah from heaven will satisfy.

The biggest problem here: You're asking for God on your terms.

If I gave you 1, 10, 20, 100 medical instances you would tell me they were psychosomatic, placebo, or a biological blip in probability.

If I told you that most miracles simply don't get documented because they don't happen for worldwide acknowledgement, or if I told you God may not primarily work in ways of magic and mysticism but on a biological level as we see under the microscope, you would wave me away and in a parroted fashion ask me for proof, when I had just so delicately outlined that I don't keep God in my wallet.


And even as I read what I've written, it seems like I'm being rude, but aren't I just going several steps ahead here?

Artie, the issue is we have different views of the world. We're looking at one set of facts, we're looking at the same Bible and the same world and the same history and mathematics and biology and theories- and we're drawing different conclusions based on things such as TEMPERAMENT and PERSPECTIVE.


What I mean to say is that those things ARE absolute, it's US, it's man that has the subjective and finicky opinions.

But you want lists, tests, charts, and I really wish I could give you everything ever to satiate you. And I guess you've already spent a bunch of time searching for medical testimonies, I assume you're not just getting on here and telling us you don't believe in something you haven't looked for. Believe me, I know people that do.

But I guess all I've got right now are some things from a Google search.

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html#latapie


http://www.doxa.ws/other/Miracles.html

 

[Artie]

But I guess all I've got right now are some things from a Google search.

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html#latapie

http://www.doxa.ws/other/Miracles.html

Thank you very much I will read the links very thoroughly. At first glance they show wonderful examples of how capable the body is of healing itself if stimulated by faith in something.

BrenchStevens said:

"You claim that what we "call miracles happen all over the world to anyone regardless of religion or creed? They even happen to atheists." Can you list even one of these instances? If not, would you care to retract your statement?"

http://clearharmony.net/articles/200407/20994.html

Do you now believe in Falun Gong and Falun Dafa and Li Hongzhi? Actually you have to since you claim that medical miracles are done by whatever you attribute them to.

 

[BrenchStevens]

Thank you very much I will read the links very thoroughly. At first glance they show wonderful examples of how capable the body is of healing itself if stimulated by faith in something.

BrenchStevens said:

"You claim that what we "call miracles happen all over the world to anyone regardless of religion or creed? They even happen to atheists." Can you list even one of these instances? If not, would you care to retract your statement?"

http://clearharmony.net/articles/200407/20994.html

Do you now believe in Falun Gong and Falun Dafa and Li Hongzhi? Actually you have to since you claim that medical miracles are done by whatever you attribute them to.

I never said that medical miracles are done by whatever I attribute them to. I do believe that, to an extent, the body does indeed have powerful repair systems. If you read the Introduction to Falun Gong, you will see that it involves practices similar to Yoga, an exercise system known for its benefits to human health, even without any religious practices being involved. The exercises explain the case of the woman with rheumatoid arthritis.

What I have said proves the Bible is miracles being done the same way they happened in the Bible. And it is more than medical miracles. A woman and her car were transported 500 miles!

I still would like for you to provide an example of a miracle that happened to someone of a different faith than Christianity.

 

[Artie]

If I gave you 1, 10, 20, 100 medical instances you would tell me they were psychosomatic, placebo, or a biological blip in probability.

67 validated "miracles" in 153 years out of how many visitors to Lourdes? God is extremely selective... ;) I wonder what distinguishes these people physically and mentally from the rest?

Artie, the issue is we have different views of the world. We're looking at one set of facts, we're looking at the same Bible

No actually there are at least six different Bibles containing anywhere from 24 to 81 books. Catholics are only looking at the Catholic Bible and some Catholics claim the Protestant Bible is ridiculous and say they don't believe in an "abridged" Bible.

 

[Artie]

I never said that medical miracles are done by whatever I attribute them to. I do believe that, to an extent, the body does indeed have powerful repair systems. If you read the Introduction to Falun Gong, you will see that it involves practices similar to Yoga, an exercise system known for its benefits to human health, even without any religious practices being involved. The exercises explain the case of the woman with rheumatoid arthritis.

Then I have demonstrated a medical miracle happening with no God involved.

What I have said proves the Bible is miracles being done the same way they happened in the Bible. And it is more than medical miracles. A woman and her car were transported 500 miles!

And again I ask for conclusive and irrefutable evidence for this.

I still would like for you to provide an example of a miracle that happened to someone of a different faith than Christianity.

Why when I have provided you an example of a miracle without any religious practices involved, without any reference to any deities? The principle applies: miracles don't require belief in particular deities.

 

[WIP]

@WIP

I'm having trouble with the quotes, fonts and formatting and can't answer in detail. Could you use simpler formatting? For now I'll simply say that are you and BrenchStevens unaware that what you call miracles happen all over the world to anyone regardless of religion or creed? They even happen to atheists. It's just that Christians attribute them to God while others attribute them to whichever god they happen to believe in. Atheists often attribute medical "miracles" to the body's ability to heal itself and the placebo effect etc etc. If an atheist experiences some medical "miracle" as described here is God still responsible?

God can create/perform miracles at any time and religious persuasion or lack thereof has no bearing. What you've posted here tells me that you are completely closed to the possibility and even when a miracle is before your very eyes, you will behemently deny its existance. Until such time that you are willing to open yourself to the possibility there's no value in arguing further. The truth is before you whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

 

[Artie]

God can create/perform miracles at any time and religious persuasion or lack thereof has no bearing. What you've posted here tells me that you are completely closed to the possibility and even when a miracle is before your very eyes, you will behemently deny its existance. Until such time that you are willing to open yourself to the possibility there's no value in arguing further. The truth is before you whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

I understand. God can perform miracles for anyone and it doesn't matter if you believe in Him or any other deities or not. I thought Gods miracles were only meant for Christians but He covers every religion and non-believers. My bad. It's good to know that anyone who goes to Lourdes can experience a miracle no matter what he believes or disbelieves. Wouldn't it be amazing if hospitals could be organized like churches and anyone could go and be healed by miracles in hospitals instead of churches?

My view on miracles is pretty much summed up *violation of the tos* if you are interested.

 

[Mike]

Artie, take care that you don't cross the line and mock our faith with sarcasm. It says nowhere in scripture that miracles are exclusive to Christians. He will do what He will do, and we can accept it as His Work or not. You've spun the onus on Christians from "proof that God exists" which had been on the table to "proof of miracles", but the burden of proof is not ours. It's not yours either, unless you come to a Christian discussion board and take the opposing stance.

Jesus advised us not to throw pearls to swine. I'm not calling you a swine or disparaging you, but the point is, if someone has closed his mind to the Truth, it's more fruitful to turn our attention to people who have not. No one is every going to "prove" God or miracles in or out of existence. There will always be room for the believer and unbeliever to hold his ground, until that time when He closes the curtain and receives the ones who responded to the revelation He provided.

 

[Artie]

Artie, take care that you don't cross the line and mock our faith with sarcasm. It says nowhere in scripture that miracles are exclusive to Christians.

I responded to a person here who doubted I could provide evidence of non-christian miracles which I did. He appeared to believe that miracles were solely experienced by Christians.

He will do what He will do, and we can accept it as His Work or not. You've spun the onus on Christians from "proof that God exists" which had been on the table to "proof of miracles", but the burden of proof is not ours. It's not yours either, unless you come to a Christian discussion board and take the opposing stance.

You're right back to the theme of the thread.

Jesus advised us not to throw pearls to swine. I'm not calling you a swine or disparaging you, but the point is, if someone has closed his mind to the Truth, it's more fruitful to turn our attention to people who have not. No one is every going to "prove" God or miracles in or out of existence. There will always be room for the believer and unbeliever to hold his ground, until that time when He closes the curtain and receives the ones who responded to the revelation He provided.

Yes if science or Christians had been able to prove God what would happen to faith? You can't have faith in that which is proven. That wouldn't be faith that would be knowledge. So if He comes back wouldn't faith collapse and turn to knowledge? Just a thought.

 

[BrenchStevens]

Then I have demonstrated a medical miracle happening with no God involved.

What you have demonstrated is no medical miracle. A miracle is, according to Merriam-Webster, "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." The "miracle" you provided has a naturalistic explanation--exercise. A real miracle is something that happens that cannot be explained in naturalistic terms and ergo requires a cause beyond the natural, a cause supernatural.

And again I ask for conclusive and irrefutable evidence for this.

A woman's own testimony is all I have. She knew the time she was crossing the bridge and it coincided with the time she awakened in her driveway at her home.

Why when I have provided you an example of a miracle without any religious practices involved, without any reference to any deities? The principle applies: miracles don't require belief in particular deities.

Without anything supernatural, there is no such thing as a miracle. If it can be explained in naturalistic terms, it is no miracle. Your example is no miracle.

My mother was once praying in the library where she went to college. She thought she was alone. Suddenly, a girl came up to her and started speaking in some foreign language my mother had never heard. My mother had to stop her and tell her she didn't know the language. The girl was baffled because my mother had been speaking her native language (which my mother had never learned). The girl had heard my mother speaking about Jesus.

 

[Artie]

What you have demonstrated is no medical miracle. A miracle is, according to Merriam-Webster, "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." The "miracle" you provided has a naturalistic explanation--exercise. A real miracle is something that happens that cannot be explained in naturalistic terms and ergo requires a cause beyond the natural, a cause supernatural.

So if this had happened to someone you knew you wouldn't have used it as an example of a miracle from God?

A woman's own testimony is all I have. She knew the time she was crossing the bridge and it coincided with the time she awakened in her driveway at her home.

Actually I find this story interesting and it amazes me that you haven't investigated further. Why don't you and this woman try to replicate what exactly happened that day? Talk to possible witnesses, verify statements who saw her last before she teleported and who saw her first after she teleported get the exact time frame, check speedometers, check how much fuel was spent, check every little detail? Someone must have seen the car disappear and reappear. There must have been an audible sound as the air filled in the space when the car suddenly disappeared possibly like a gunshot. Any animals behaving strangely nearby? Did she notice anything special in the car or outside of the car before or after? Was she alone on the road? Any cars in front of her or after her? Any electromagnetic or gravitational anomalies where she teleported from? Check possible highway cameras etc etc. You would also have to first rule out all other "supernatural" explanations of course. Such as alien abduction. It's a known fact that alien abductees often experience a loss of consciousness and their cars are often moved without the abductees knowledge. You have to interview her to find out if she got any suspicious bruises or marks on her, if she has experienced loss of time before etc etc. You might want to contact some nearby UFO society that can start investigating. You must also get the police and the military involved of course so they are alert and can investigate this case and be ready to deploy on short notice next time something similar happens. It would be of paramount importance to national security. If she and her car can be transported over such a distance instantly who or what else can be transported like that? Terrorists? Bombs? From now on you must make sure she uses a mobile phone with Google Latitude who knows it might happen again and if so you would have some concrete evidence.

Without anything supernatural, there is no such thing as a miracle. If it can be explained in naturalistic terms, it is no miracle. Your example is no miracle.

Well, since your miracles haven't been verified by anyone to actually be results of something supernatural yours aren't either. Just stories.

My mother was once praying in the library where she went to college. She thought she was alone. Suddenly, a girl came up to her and started speaking in some foreign language my mother had never heard. My mother had to stop her and tell her she didn't know the language. The girl was baffled because my mother had been speaking her native language (which my mother had never learned). The girl had heard my mother speaking about Jesus.

And the rest of the story? What happened then? Did they write down time and date and exactly what happened and what was said? Did they sign a statement? Anything that can be verified? Any witnesses? Anything?

 

[BrenchStevens]

So if this had happened to someone you knew you wouldn't have used it as an example of a miracle from God?



Actually I find this story interesting and it amazes me that you haven't investigated further. Why don't you and this woman try to replicate what exactly happened that day? Talk to possible witnesses, verify statements who saw her last before she teleported and who saw her first after she teleported get the exact time frame, check speedometers, check how much fuel was spent, check every little detail? Someone must have seen the car disappear and reappear. There must have been an audible sound as the air filled in the space when the car suddenly disappeared possibly like a gunshot. Any animals behaving strangely nearby? Did she notice anything special in the car or outside of the car before or after? Was she alone on the road? Any cars in front of her or after her? Any electromagnetic or gravitational anomalies where she teleported from? Check possible highway cameras etc etc. You would also have to first rule out all other "supernatural" explanations of course. Such as alien abduction. It's a known fact that alien abductees often experience a loss of consciousness and their cars are often moved without the abductees knowledge. You have to interview her to find out if she got any suspicious bruises or marks on her, if she has experienced loss of time before etc etc. You might want to contact some nearby UFO society that can start investigating. You must also get the police and the military involved of course so they are alert and can investigate this case and be ready to deploy on short notice next time something similar happens. It would be of paramount importance to national security. If she and her car can be transported over such a distance instantly who or what else can be transported like that? Terrorists? Bombs? From now on you must make sure she uses a mobile phone with Google Latitude who knows it might happen again and if so you would have some concrete evidence.



Well, since your miracles haven't been verified by anyone to actually be results of something supernatural yours aren't either. Just stories.



And the rest of the story? What happened then? Did they write down time and date and exactly what happened and what was said? Did they sign a statement? Anything that can be verified? Any witnesses? Anything?

Are you serious? You are just making a mockery of this. Sure, it's fine to ask for some details, but you are being ridiculous.

 

[childeye]

Artie, Please take a look at post #2 on the thread named Romans 6:14 in the Apologetics and Theology forum.

 

[reba]

Mom, Evelyn and i are setting in the car. I no longer remember exactly where or why. The car would not start the old dead battery.... Mom is witnessing to Evelyn so Evelyn challenges Mom's faith.... Something like if God is real He can start the car maybe she said He would send some one to jump the car...Yup immediately a guy drives up those angled parking lots so we were nose to nose Every thing OK he asks ? we got our jump we thanked the guy and praised the Lord

Those not in Christ will say coincidence those that know the Lord will nod in agreed acknowledgement.

 

[Artie]

Are you serious? You are just making a mockery of this. Sure, it's fine to ask for some details, but you are being ridiculous.

I am being ridiculous!? You have a woman there who has traveled 500 miles in a car in an instant! She has broken the laws of physics! And you think this is not worth serious investigation!? You have to contact professional investigators and have them check out every detail of the case! In the meantime get her a mobile phone with Google Latitude or some other tracking device it might happen again! Ask her if she has had any feeling of being watched after she publicly announced this miracle. Has she noticed any mysterious cars or noticed or been approached by people identifying themselves as government agents?

 

[Artie]

Artie, Please take a look at post #2 on the thread named Romans 6:14 in the Apologetics and Theology forum.

I read it. If you have been following this thread BrenchStevens know of a woman who was transported 500 miles in her car in an instant and doesn't think that breaking the laws of physics is worthy of serious investigation! Could you help me persuade him to have the case checked out in a professional manner?

 

[childeye]

I read it. If you have been following this thread BrenchStevens know of a woman who was transported 500 miles in her car in an instant and doesn't think that breaking the laws of physics is worthy of serious investigation! Could you help me persuade him to have the case checked out in a professional manner?

I don't know how such a thing gets investigated Artie. Once you've experienced a miracle no matter how small, you seem to get it, that God can do anything even if it defies the laws of physics. I don't expect most people would believe it, no matter what evidence could be gathered.

 

[BrenchStevens]

I am being ridiculous!? You have a woman there who has traveled 500 miles in a car in an instant! She has broken the laws of physics! And you think this is not worth serious investigation!? You have to contact professional investigators and have them check out every detail of the case! In the meantime get her a mobile phone with Google Latitude or some other tracking device it might happen again! Ask her if she has had any feeling of being watched after she publicly announced this miracle. Has she noticed any mysterious cars or noticed or been approached by people identifying themselves as government agents?

It was years ago and there was an actual need for her to be back at her home that fast. God doesn't do miracles just to show off His power. He meets the needs that people have. But, I doubt you will allow yourself to be unblinded by your rebellion.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 ESV 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

 

[childeye]

=BrenchStevens;579274]But, I doubt you will allow yourself to be unblinded by your rebellion.

Brench, I apologize for the interruption but I am of the belief that only God can remove such blindness. He did in me. Artie cannot help what he believes and is only asking why we believe what we believe.

 

[Artie]

It was years ago and there was an actual need for her to be back at her home that fast. God doesn't do miracles just to show off His power. He meets the needs that people have. But, I doubt you will allow yourself to be unblinded by your rebellion.

Are you telling us that a woman and a car can be transported 500 miles in the blink of an eye and you are not going to investigate what exactly happened? Why not? Perhaps afraid what the evidence would show? Even the Catholic Church is sensible enough to scientifically thoroughly verify "miracles" before they are accepted as such but you are not!? Is the Catholic Church "rebellious" then for showing some common sense and doing what you should also have done? As long as Christians like you continue to classify it as a miracle from God without any evidence whoever or whatever was actually responsible has nothing to worry about with Christians around. One can only hope that at some point in time some responsible person or institution comes along and starts looking into it.