[__ Science __ ] Evidence of God

[Adelaide]

It’s very clear that belief in God is entirely faith based.

But there is also a demand for actual proof or evidence of Gods existence by those who don’t believe.

I’d love to know, how do you respond to this, whoever is willing to share?

 

[Free]

It’s very clear that belief in God is entirely faith based.

But there is also a demand for actual proof or evidence of Gods existence by those who don’t believe.

I’d love to know, how do you respond to this, whoever is willing to share?

Belief in God is based on evidence, just as belief in Jesus’s death and resurrection is. The issue lies in what constitutes adequate evidence, and usually skeptics and atheists demand a level of evidence that they nor anyone else demands for anything else.

 

[Adelaide]

Belief in God is based on evidence, just as belief in Jesus’s death and resurrection is. The issue lies in what constitutes adequate evidence, and usually skeptics and atheists demand a level of evidence that they nor anyone else demands for anything else.

So what is the evidence?

And I think the demand for evidence is on the same level as something as paltry UFO’s or Bigfoot or even as serious as the evidence needed to prove a crime. The whole burden of proof problem…

 

[Free]

So what is the evidence?

And I think the demand for evidence is on the same level as something as paltry UFO’s or Bigfoot or even as serious as the evidence needed to prove a crime. The whole burden of proof problem…

Actually, the level of evidence requested is usually much higher, on the level only found in mathematics. The reason is, the evidence we do have is on the level used in a court of law, but this causes cognitive dissonance, and so the level is raised to an impossible standard.

There are many things, such as irreducible complex biological systems, the fine tuning of the universe, the moral argument, the problem of information (DNA), etc.; things which naturalistic processes cannot account for. There is no single piece of evidence, but like in many court cases, deductive reasoning is used to conclude what is the most likely explanation for life and all that we see and experience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It’s very clear that belief in God is entirely faith based.

Well, it’s a faith choice based on the evidence for the most part.

But there is also a demand for actual proof or evidence of Gods existence by those who don’t believe.

“Proof” is generally used for alcohol and mathematics. In other matters (law, psychology, etc) it’s evidence.

I’d love to know, how do you respond to this, whoever is willing to share?

The evidence is expansive and has convinced many an atheist. Free has given an excellent response. Do you want details?

 

[Adelaide]

Actually, the level of evidence requested is usually much higher, on the level only found in mathematics. The reason is, the evidence we do have is on the level used in a court of law, but this causes cognitive dissonance, and so the level is raised to an impossible standard.

There are many things, such as irreducible complex biological systems, the fine tuning of the universe, the moral argument, the problem of information (DNA), etc.; things which naturalistic processes cannot account for. There is no single piece of evidence, but like in many court cases, deductive reasoning is used to conclude what is the most likely explanation for life and all that we see and experience.

Causes cognitive dissonance among whom? Believers?

As far as irreducible complexity of certain biological systems, it seems this theory has already been rejected by the scientific community. Behe’s theory was “based on the mistaken assumption that evolution relies on improvement of existing functions, ignoring how complex adaptations originate from changes in function, and disregarding published research.”

The fine tuning of the universe is definitely getting closer, but still not evidence, certainly. There seems to be much research and many explanations with no solid conclusions.

The moral argument isn’t anything at all. Evolution argues that morality is necessary to survival, so it evolved with other things like compassion, generosity, love.

The problem with information in DNA- that one I’m not aware of. Could you explain or share a link?

 

[jesusfollower]

Causes cognitive dissonance among whom? Believers?

As far as irreducible complexity of certain biological systems, it seems this theory has already been rejected by the scientific community. Behe’s theory was “based on the mistaken assumption that evolution relies on improvement of existing functions, ignoring how complex adaptations originate from changes in function, and disregarding published research.”

The fine tuning of the universe is definitely getting closer, but still not evidence, certainly. There seems to be much research and many explanations with no solid conclusions.

The moral argument isn’t anything at all. Evolution argues that morality is necessary to survival, so it evolved with other things like compassion, generosity, love.

The problem with information in DNA- that one I’m not aware of. Could you explain or share a link?

Actually absolute proof of the existence of GOD exists, we see it every day, Life itself! Look at the laws of thermodynamics, they absolutely prove that God created everything. These law sate amongst other things that order cannot appear out of nothing, if left to itself, physical matter over time becomes more and more chaotic, the reverse is impossible, ordered structured matter cannot appear out of chaos over time. Everything was created by GOD!

Also many believers did have had direct proof of the existence of GOD.

Blessings,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Causes cognitive dissonance among whom? Believers?

As far as irreducible complexity of certain biological systems, it seems this theory has already been rejected by the scientific community. Behe’s theory was “based on the mistaken assumption that evolution relies on improvement of existing functions, ignoring how complex adaptations originate from changes in function, and disregarding published research.”

The fine tuning of the universe is definitely getting closer, but still not evidence, certainly. There seems to be much research and many explanations with no solid conclusions.

The moral argument isn’t anything at all. Evolution argues that morality is necessary to survival, so it evolved with other things like compassion, generosity, love.

The problem with information in DNA- that one I’m not aware of. Could you explain or share a link?

The cognitive dissonance occurs in the minds of those who refuse to believe what the evidence indicates. I cannot speak for Free but I can tell you that DNA is information. There is no known source for information sharing outside of a mind. DNA is information pure. The information is found in the very dimensional form. This is not the produce of mindless time plus chance. Time plus chance never generates information. Or do you have an example of such?

Irreducible complexity has been rejected because of the obvious conclusions it leads to (cognitive dissonance.) This quote, "

based on the mistaken assumption that evolution relies on improvement of existing functions, ignoring how complex adaptations originate from changes in function, and disregarding published research.”"

relies on the mistaken assumption that evolution does not require improvement for living forms to survive. We as humans do experience genetic changes in developing embryos. Not a single one is an adaption that improve as a result of changes function. Frankly speaking, the whole quote is incoherent. Complex "adaptions" are by definition an improvement of existing function or the living being dies in the face of other competing life forms. But I would like to hear of an adaptation that resulted in change of function that gave the creature a survival advantage without any improvement. How does that work exactly?

The fine tuning of the universe will never get closer because they refuse at the outset the most obvious answer, a mind. When one answer, the most obvious one, is eliminated form possible reasons, they will never arrive at the truth.

People are atheists because it is to their momentary advantage. Might be professional. Might be personal. But being a believer in the living God is very expensive in science now. When it comes to origins, No intelligence allowed.

 

[WIP]

So what is the evidence?

I believe one of the problems is that unbelievers are looking for a specific type of evidence and therefore have closed their eyes to any other evidence. All we can do is plant seed and let the Holy Spirit take it from there. For me, it came about while I was out for a walk. I was restless and unable to sleep so I went out for a walk in the country during the night. It was around midnight and as I was walking and looking at nature around me - the clouds, the trees, the full moon, the stars - I was suddenly aware of God's thumbprint in everything.

This awareness was repeated another time as well. Every fall in late September or early October some friends and I get together for what we call M.A.N. Camp. It's an ATV riding, grouse hunting, nature loving, tent camping trip. We choose the time period we do so we can catch the fall colors at their peak. One particular year, the colors were so vibrant and brilliant that the air itself seemed to take on the colors. I remember sitting around the campfire and commenting about it and how it was clear evidence of God's handiwork.

We were actually talking about this in our Gideons breakfast meeting this morning. How people want proof. My answer was that for me, all I need is to look around me at God's creation. It's all the proof that is needed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe one of the problems is that unbelievers are looking for a specific type of evidence and therefore have closed their eyes to any other evidence. All we can do is plant seed and let the Holy Spirit take it from there. For me, it came about while I was out for a walk. I was restless and unable to sleep so I went out for a walk in the country during the night. It was around midnight and as I was walking and looking at nature around me - the clouds, the trees, the full moon, the stars - I was suddenly aware of God's thumbprint in everything.

This awareness was repeated another time as well. Every fall in late September or early October some friends and I get together for what we call M.A.N. Camp. It's an ATV riding, grouse hunting, nature loving, tent camping trip. We choose the time period we do so we can catch the fall colors at their peak. One particular year, the colors were so vibrant and brilliant that the air itself seemed to take on the colors. I remember sitting around the campfire and commenting about it and how it was clear evidence of God's handiwork.

We were actually talking about this in our Gideons breakfast meeting this morning. How people want proof. My answer was that for me, all I need is to look around me at God's creation. It's all the proof that is needed.

I remember telling one atheist that it sounded to me like he demanded that God show up for tea next Tuesday at 4 or he would refuse to believe he was there. This God does not do as it is unkind. Man is never the alpha in the relationship and it is cruel to start out an interaction letting the man think he is in charge.

Thanks for the post. Really nice to read.

 

[Edward]

So what is the evidence?

And I think the demand for evidence is on the same level as something as paltry UFO’s or Bigfoot or even as serious as the evidence needed to prove a crime. The whole burden of proof problem…

The proof is here , yet they don't go splashing it across the media saying, oh you Christians were right! God knew that man lives in the material world so he generally only believes in what he can see. So He has made plenty pf provision for evidences to be distributed.

God uses many ways to give evidences to the people.
He manifests heaaling miracles before their eyes.
That is evidence and provision for testimony, and some will believe that. It's just not something that can be taken into a laboratory and repeated. God don't splash big things into the media either because He wants our faith. And that leaves room for faith!

God does things in the proper season for it so be patient. Before I had aquired a strong faith, I could see no evidence of God anywhere.
Now that I have a more established faith...It's hard not to see the fingerprints of God almost everywhere. Can you make a tree? Can those smart scientists who demand the proof make a tree? Maybe they have eyes but can not see?

We were born on earth as carnal beings of the soul and flesh body. We spent our whole lives learning how to live as good beings in the material world.

Now the Lord tells us that we have to start over learning how to live. Live spiritually. Do not make your decisions from your mind but rather your heart and spirit. No wonder Jesus told us in scripture that we have to become like little children to receive it. Because we're really spiritual beings so we must learn all of the spiritual protocols of life as a spiritual being. That could take a lifetime!

So try to, stop looking at things from your mind. Just go internally and consciously shift gears to your spirit which we already know is one with Christs spirit...

1 Corinthians 6:17
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.../

and you come into the Lords presence and a feeling of peace will come over you. Then make your decision from there...!!

 

[hawkman]

It’s very clear that belief in God is entirely faith based.

But there is also a demand for actual proof or evidence of Gods existence by those who don’t believe.

I’d love to know, how do you respond to this, whoever is willing to share?

After I became a Christian my belief in God became faith based and fact based .
The fact is there was a change that took place inside me !

Adelaide , what was the change like for you when you were born again ?

Here is link for my experience . https://christianforums.net/threads/how-do-i-know-im-truly-born-again.93133/#post-1708546

 

[Free]

Causes cognitive dissonance among whom? Believers?

I would add to Dorothy Mae's response that there have been scientists who have stated that they simply cannot allow God to exist. This is why any and all evidence gets pushed aside and the level of evidence required is at a level that is impossible and required nowhere else, except perhaps mathematics.

Consider this quote from Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin:

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."

https://answersingenesis.org/cultur...anti-creationist-and-anti-intelligent-design/

At least he is being honest.

As far as irreducible complexity of certain biological systems, it seems this theory has already been rejected by the scientific community. Behe’s theory was “based on the mistaken assumption that evolution relies on improvement of existing functions, ignoring how complex adaptations originate from changes in function, and disregarding published research.”

One of the problems is that things can't even get off the ground to begin with. James Tour's talk on the origin of life is fascinating. The first 8 minutes is just an introduction to his work, which I found very interesting, and quite entertaining. The main point I am getting at--the impossibility of molecules forming naturalistically--begins around the 14:15 part (try watching at least 11 min or so):

The fine tuning of the universe is definitely getting closer, but still not evidence, certainly. There seems to be much research and many explanations with no solid conclusions.

It seems you are doing what I said skeptics and atheists do--dismissing evidence that would work in a court of law and raising the level to one that is impossible. Fine tuning is evidence, but it is one piece. This is the same thing that skeptics and atheists do with the Bible--they take one thing at a time and dismiss it, as though the context of the rest of the Bible doesn't matter.

The mathematical likelihood of all the things necessary for life on earth is so exceedingly small, that it is impossible to have happened naturalistically.

The moral argument isn’t anything at all. Evolution argues that morality is necessary to survival, so it evolved with other things like compassion, generosity, love.

The moral argument most certainly is something--another piece of evidence. To argue that morality developed through evolutionary means, essentially makes morality subjective, which makes it meaningless and useless. However, morality is objective, as even some atheist philosophers have come to admit. Everyone lives as though morality is objective; there are things we intuitively know are objectively evil.

The problem with information in DNA- that one I’m not aware of. Could you explain or share a link?

Here is another video on various problems with Darwin's ideas, including DNA (I found from the 10:00 mark on to be more interesting; 16:15 is a mathematical problem):

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s very clear that belief in God is entirely faith based.

But there is also a demand for actual proof or evidence of Gods existence by those who don’t believe.

I’d love to know, how do you respond to this, whoever is willing to share?

It cannot be proven scientifically that God exists.
That's because it would require empirical proof and that is not possible since conditions cannot be repeated.

However, we can know that our faith is reasonable.

Do you know what happened on the day Jesus was crucified?

 

[GodsGrace]

I would add to Dorothy Mae's response that there have been scientists who have stated that they simply cannot allow God to exist. This is why any and all evidence gets pushed aside and the level of evidence required is at a level that is impossible and required nowhere else, except perhaps mathematics.

Consider this quote from Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin:

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."

https://answersingenesis.org/cultur...anti-creationist-and-anti-intelligent-design/

At least he is being honest.


One of the problems is that things can't even get off the ground to begin with. James Tour's talk on the origin of life is fascinating. The first 8 minutes is just an introduction to his work, which I found very interesting, and quite entertaining. The main point I am getting at--the impossibility of molecules forming naturalistically--begins around the 14:15 part (try watching at least 11 min or so):

It seems you are doing what I said skeptics and atheists do--dismissing evidence that would work in a court of law and raising the level to one that is impossible. Fine tuning is evidence, but it is one piece. This is the same thing that skeptics and atheists do with the Bible--they take one thing at a time and dismiss it, as though the context of the rest of the Bible doesn't matter.

The mathematical likelihood of all the things necessary for life on earth is so exceedingly small, that it is impossible to have happened naturalistically.


The moral argument most certainly is something--another piece of evidence. To argue that morality developed through evolutionary means, essentially makes morality subjective, which makes it meaningless and useless. However, morality is objective, as even some atheist philosophers have come to admit. Everyone lives as though morality is objective; there are things we intuitively know are objectively evil.


Here is another video on various problems with Darwin's ideas, including DNA (I found from the 10:00 mark on to be more interesting; 16:15 is a mathematical problem):

Hi Free
I very much like your post.

I do want to say, however, that we need to find our own reason for believing.

I'm familiar with the persons in your videos, but would never be able to repeat what they state in any convincing manner.

However, I can explain why I have faith.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Free
I very much like your post.

I do want to say, however, that we need to find our own reason for believing.

I'm familiar with the persons in your videos, but would never be able to repeat what they state in any convincing manner.

However, I can explain why I have faith.

We should keep in mind that the scripture tells us to be ready to an answer to any man as to the faith that is in us. Your answer above to those who ask would be pretty good. You admit that you don’t have evidence that perhaps would convince another being anecdotal or personal, but you can point them to those who do, if that’s the kind of thinker they are. CSLewis wrote that the intellectual road to God mightn’t be the safest, but it is a road nevertheless. There are many convinced of God’s being there by intellectual argument.

 

[GodsGrace]

We should keep in mind that the scripture tells us to be ready to an answer to any man as to the faith that is in us. Your answer above to those who ask would be pretty good. You admit that you don’t have evidence that perhaps would convince another being anecdotal or personal, but you can point them to those who do, if that’s the kind of thinker they are. CSLewis wrote that the intellectual road to God mightn’t be the safest, but it is a road nevertheless. There are many convinced of God’s being there by intellectual argument.

I haven't stated my reason yet.
The other member should come up with her own reason.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I haven't stated my reason yet.
The other member should come up with her own reason.

So you aren’t prepared to give a reason if someone asks? It seemed that your reasons are all personal and wouldn’t impress anyone else of the reality of God. Make no mistake, a testimony IS personal which means it has value. Why we believe based on personal experience is real. It just can’t be all the church has and it isn’t all the church has.

 

[GodsGrace]

So you aren’t prepared to give a reason if someone asks? It seemed that your reasons are all personal and wouldn’t impress anyone else of the reality of God. Make no mistake, a testimony IS personal which means it has value. Why we believe based on personal experience is real. It just can’t be all the church has and it isn’t all the church has.

It has nothing to do with my personal experience.
My personal experience should be of no importance to anyone.
Our faith is reasonable.

But I like others to come to their own realization.
Which is what I'm trying to do....

 

[Christ_empowered]

Hard science never was my thing. However…

Christian morality and faith change lives and families. It isn’t simply belief in a higher power it’s faith in Jesus with some sound doctrine and Christian worldview that I personally believe facilitates His work in our lives.

In Christ slave traders gave up ownership of other human beings and spread the Good News. In Christ miracles happen now and then.

I agree with Scripture that God gives the increase. I also believe in divine foreknowledge especially when it comes to salvation. Happy to share my faith! Not so eager to point out supporting evidence to hardliners who have no intention of truly listening. Conversation is a 2 way street.