jwu wrote:
By the way, there is another information related field in which entropy occurs: Cryptology. There entropy is not a measure of randomness, but virtual randomness - the evenness of the distribution of characters in a ciphertext. More entropy makes it harder to decrypt a text without knowledge of the key as there are less regularities in it, but that does not mean that it does not contain information.
(brought forward from another forum in attempt to consolidate our
discussions into one forum)
I think this is a good example of informational entropy (albeit intentional).
jwu wrote:
So if these additional capabilities had not occured it would have been a higher increase of information than with them? If that makes it disqualify as an increase of information, then i dare to say that no increase of information is required to get from amoeba to men in first instance.
Remember Spetner's point: To understand this properly, it’s necessary to
realize enzymes are usually tuned very precisely to only one type of
molecule (the substrate), and this fine-tuning is necessary for living cells to
function.
... Mutations reduce specificity and hence would reduce the effectiveness of its primary function, but would enable it to degrade other substrates too. But this loss of specificity means loss of information content...
Living organisms require enzymes to do a specific job (i.e.-useful work), so
their information content is very close to the maximum.
Ordinary acids or alkalis hydrolyse many compounds. These have wonderful
extended-spectrum catalytic activity, but are not specific, so have so would
be useless for the precise control required for biological reactions. More is
not better for the case where exact control is required. With out this precise
control, you get all kinds of unintended and counterproductive reactions.
Like the suns energy (it's enormous)...ordinary, extended spectrum acids
and alkalis have much activity, but little or no specificity (i.e.-useful work or
useful information). Think about it terms of noise and entropy. An increase
in noise in a communication system (i.e.- unintended and counterproductive
reactions) is an increase in entropy. Of course an increase in entropy is a
increase in disorder.
The concepts of information and entropy have deep links with one another,
although it took many years for the development of the theories of
statistical mechanics and information theory to make this apparent.
jwu wrote:
Or how about a gene doubling? One gene gets doubled, the original still fulfills its original function, and the copy gets mutated in a way so that it enables metabolizing another chemical just like it happened in that example. Now that organism has the ability to metabolize its original source of nutrients still with the original performance, but also others.
Interesting point. According to a fairly recent study though, by two
proponents of ToE , there is no evidence to show that gene doubling
results in any increase in order:
[ 18 May 2005 ]
Conodonts are one of the extinct fossil groups that fill the evolutionary gap between lampreys and sharks.
New evidence from fossil fish, hundreds of millions of years old, casts doubt on the latest ideas about evolutionary theory.
The research, by Dr Philip Donoghue of the University of Bristol and Dr Mark Purnell of the University of Leicester, claims to have solved a scientific riddle by using the fossil record to explain evolutionary ‘leaps’ between species.
The findings will set them on a collision course with geneticists who argue that the evolution of humans and other vertebrates – animals with backbones – was driven by sudden changes in their genes.
This new work challenges the scientific theory that jumps in evolution occurred at times when gene numbers increased in animals with backbones. The larger number of genes is believed to occur through gene ‘duplication’ and is thought to be the reason why humans and other vertebrates are more complex.
"What appear to be evolutionary jumps are really just gaps in the evolutionary tree - dead branches that have fallen by the wayside."
Dr Phil Donoghue
When geneticists look at which branches of the vertebrate family tree have duplicated genes and which don’t, it certainly seems that each duplication led to a sudden jump in evolution.
For example, one duplication event occurred sometime after the evolution of lampreys but before the evolution of sharks. Sure enough, lampreys are simple vertebrates lacking jaws, teeth and a bony skeleton, whereas sharks are much more complex animals.
Thus the evidence from living vertebrates suggests a neat pattern, with a close correspondence between gene doubling events and evolution. Indeed, the evidence seems so strong that hundreds of scientific research papers have been written about the genetics of this important evolutionary pattern.
But, as Dr Donoghue explained: “We consider this picture – a view of living animals only – is seriously distorted. What appear to be evolutionary jumps are really just gaps in the evolutionary tree – dead branches that have fallen by the wayside. These branches are not 'missing links', more like ‘missed’ links, and when we use the fossil record to put them back in place, the vertebrate evolutionary tree looks very different."
Dr Purnell said: “The new evidence from research into ancient fossil fish reveals that the 'jump' between lampreys and sharks turns out to be nothing of the sort. The major changes in anatomy didn't occur suddenly, as a result of a gene doubling; they took place over 70 million years or more, through a series of intermediate, but now extinct fossil fish.â€Â
Donoghue and Purnell have thrown down the gauntlet to geneticists, saying: "Fossils may be long extinct, their genes having rotted away millions of years ago, but if geneticists want to say anything meaningful about evolution they must include fossils in the vertebrate family tree – they cannot simply ignore them".
And remember my point in my previous post:
Think about it terms of noise and entropy. An increase
in noise in a communication system (i.e.- Now that organism has the
ability to metabolize its original source of nutrients
still with the original performance (specified information), but also
others (non-specified information).) is an increase in
entropy. Of course an increase in entropy is a increase in disorder.
jwu wrote:
As a seperate line of reasoning...what happens to the information content of a string of DNA if a base pair is deleted and whatever was coded in it doesn't fulfil a purpose anymore? Does the information content decrease because of that, or can this not be determined based on the effect of the codex enzyme or protein on the organism?
Information content decreases prima facie.
Think about it in computer programming terms.
If you delete the defrag program that comes with your Original Windows CD,
you've deleted useful, purposeful information capable of performing
purposeful, useful work.
Loss of purpose fufilling work capability (useful work) has occured. Now there
might be another pair (or program in the analogy) that can perform the
function...but you've still lost the original programming of the deleted base
pair (or program).
All excellent points there jwu....you've obviously thought this stuff over a bit.
Peace
Matthew 10:16
Ephesians 5:8-11
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