[__ Science __ ] Evolution and Harmless Mutations

[Barbarian]

Man does not evolve he adapts.

As you see, that's false. The Tibetans evolved a series of new alleles to enable them to live in higher altitudes.

Are you "Gay" I Am, Because God Changes Peoples Lives To Make Them "Happy"

"Gay", for most people, has like "evolution" for many creationists,come to mean something other than what it meant originally. As you know, the scientific definition is "change in allele frequency in a population over time."

You have been caught in the "Evolution" of words, and the hoax in propagated shell games.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. There are forms of adaptation that do not involve evolution, and not all evolution is adaptation. Would you like to discuss how that works?



Yes, that's a remarkably rapid adaptation. Tibetans split off from Han Chinese a few thousand years ago, and now have evolved a number of adaptations that allow them to live at very high altitudes.



Doesn't matter. The evolution of genes necessary to survive at that altitude and to reproduce successfully was critical to the Tibetan population. So it happened remarkably rapidly.



In this case, evolution was adaptive. But there are forms of evolution that are not adaptive, and there are kinds of adaptation that are not caused by evolution.



Remember, evolution is a change in allele frequency in a population over time. Which is exactly what happened to the Tibetans.



No, not quite. Physical changes in an individual to adapt to surroundings is adaptation, but not evolution. Changes in allele frequencis in a population that make the individuals in that population more likely to survive long enough to successfully reproduce is adaptation and evolution.

Do you believe man landed on the moon as modern science teaches and believes this to be true?

 

[Barbarian]

Do you believe man landed on the moon as science teaches and believes this to be true?

It's demonstrably true. One of the Apollo missions constructed a reflector system on the Moon, which is used by astronomers to very precisely determine the distance from the Earth to the Moon. Astronomers all over the world use it frequently.

No way to deny it.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yep, and the fact that creationists can't even agree among themselves as to which of them are apes and which are humans, pretty much locks it down.



I don't blame you for not trying to separate the transitionals into two groups. No one else can do it, either. As you learned, honest creationists admit the fact: others are merely inventing stories to try to cover it up.



Yep.

Another breakthrough discovery, ole Dave below found the Holy Grail, or did he?

Their sure is alot of awards and world fame attached to these events, just like in piltdown and nebraska man, big smiles!

TheGuardian

Skull of Homo erectus throws story of human evolution into disarray
A haul of fossils found in Georgia suggests that half a dozen species of early human ancestor were actually all Homo erectus
Thu 17 Oct 2013

Wikipedia: David Otaris dze Lordkipanidze (Georgian:დავით ლორთქიფანიძე) (born 5 August 1964, in Tbilisi) is a Georgian anthropologist and archaeologist, Professor (2004), Dr.Sc. (2002), Corresponding Member of the Georgian National Academy of Sciences(2009), since 2004 General Director of the Georgian National Museum (GNM). He is a son of the archaeologist Otar Lordkipanidze.

David Lordkipanidze is best known for his discovery of the hominin fossil, first named Homo georgicus, but later reclassified as Homo erectus. Conducting excavation at Dmanisi in Georgia, he found skulls of an early hominin thought to be a precursor of Homo erectus. Subsequently, four fossil skeletons were found, showing a species still with primitive features in its skull and upper body but with relatively advanced spines and lower limbs, providing greater mobility. They represent a stage soon after the transition from Homo habilis to Homo erectus, and have been dated at 1.8 million years before the present.[1]

Lordkipanidze has received many awards, including the Georgia's Order of Honour (2000), Award of the Prince of Monaco(2001), the French Order of "Palmes Academiques" (2002), the Rolex Award for Enterprise (2004), the French Order of Honour (2006) and the Goethe Medal (2016).

He was appointed Director General of the Georgian National Museum (GNM) in 2004. In 2007 he became both a Foreign Member of the United States National Academy of Sciences and a Fellow of the World Academy of Art and Science (U.S.).[2]

 

[Barbarian]

The earth also has dynamic fitness landscapes, not the static ones that seemed to be used in the study.

Yep. And that explains a lot of things. Evolution is a lot like economics. Market forces, like evolution, tend to favor solutions to the immediate problem, without foresight of future issues. Mostly, this works pretty well, but it rarely brings about an optimal solution for the future, even if it usually brings about a feasible one.

And occasionally, it leads to a depression or extinction as the case may be.

As computer power improves, I would guess that the models will improve too. Maybe opinions will converge at that point.

Perhaps. But I suspect that evolution, like capitalism, is the worst kind of solution, except for all the other possible ones.

 

[Barbarian]

Another breakthrough discovery, ole Dave below found the Holy Grail, or did he?

As you see, this is a good example of what we were talking about. The precise classification of many transitionals is quite difficult (as you know, creationists are unable to agree on which hominins are human and which are not).

Their sure is alot of awards and world fame attached to these events, just like in piltdown and nebraska man

What awards do you think there were for Piltdown (a fraud) and Nebraska man (an article in a popular magazine)? Nebraska man was the result of a dinosaur expert finding a tooth oddly worn, which appeared to be of a primate. A mammal expert reviewing the find, quickly determined that it was a deformed peccary tooth. No awards for that, just a red-faced dino expert who should have known better. One of the changes since the 1800s, is that things like that now go through peer review before being published.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's demonstrably true. One of the Apollo missions constructed a reflector system on the Moon, which is used by astronomers to very precisely determine the distance from the Earth to the Moon. Astronomers all over the world use it frequently.

No way to deny it.

Stanley Kuberick Confession

"The Moon Landing Was Fake, The Moon Landings All Were Fake, And I Was The Person Who Filmed It"

Famous film producer "Stanley Kuberick" openly confessed in 1999 that he produced all the moonlandings, he states in the interview that the video taken wasn't going to be released until 15 years after his death, and that's exactly what happened in 12/2015.

You can't deny his words of truth, and posture of guilt and sincerity.

Just as you put your trust in government agencies (NASA) and secular science, you have watched the truth from the creator of the NASA (Apollo Program Moon Landings) his name is Stanley Kuberick.

 

[Michael74]

Yep. And that explains a lot of things. Evolution is a lot like economics. Market forces, like evolution, tend to favor solutions to the immediate problem, without foresight of future issues. Mostly, this works pretty well, but it rarely brings about an optimal solution for the future, even if it usually brings about a feasible one.

The market is a complex adaptive system. None of the models used produce accurate predictions. Many have tried. I conversed with a hedge fund programmer who tried everything he could think of, even adaptive parallel processing based on the way human brains work. Nada.

Hopefully, genetics will eventually do a bit better than this.

And occasionally, it leads to a depression or extinction as the case may be.

Hmm. A case for active intervention from time to time. To customize the species needed to prepare the earth for man's arrival. Various critters played a significant role in terraforming the earth so that it is habitable for man. Production of oxygen, distributing various trace minerals where they need to be, deposits of fuel for future use by man, etc... This fits in well with punctuated equilibrium. Evolution allowing created critters to adapt to changing conditions, with active intervention in creating new critters to punctuate the equilibrium as needed. New critters custom designed to continue terraforming in the proper direction.

Perhaps. But I suspect that evolution, like capitalism, is the worst kind of solution, except for all the other possible ones.

Again an argument for intelligent design, and active intervention in preparing the earth for man's arrival. Evolution being part of the process used, but not the whole story. Carefully and lovingly tending the garden intended for His beloved children. Then creating Adam in His own image, and subsequently carefully knitting together their descendants in the womb. Souls inside that will live forever. Not merely critters like ants.

Still, I can't empirically prove this, so I will allow you your opinion on the topic. An interesting discussion. I enjoyed it.

 

[chessman]

No way to deny it.

Sure there’s a ‘way’ to deny it. People deny truth every day using this way. Case in point:

Authors of an experiment report their conclusion was (and I quote them directly with a link to their 1943 report):

“The mutation rate has been determined experimentally.”​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1209226/pdf/491.pdf​

​

Yet there are people who deny their conclusion was about mutation rate:

Their finding wasn't about rates of mutation.

It’s an ancient technique, just deny what’s true.

 

[chessman]

A case for active intervention from time to time. To customize the species needed to prepare the earth for man's arrival. Various critters played a significant role in terraforming the earth so that it is habitable for man. Production of oxygen, distributing various trace minerals where they need to be, deposits of fuel for future use by man, etc...

... turning water into wine when the need arises:

And on the third day, there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. And when the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine!” ​

...​

Now when the head steward tasted the water which had become wine and did not know where it was from—but the servants who had drawn the water knew—the head steward summoned the bridegroom​

John 2:1,3,9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 2:1,3,9&version=LEB

 

[chessman]

He used classifications that they would understand. You should realize that in the context of the culture, it wasn't necessarily "wrong" to classify bats as birds.

He was shaping their culture (in this case dietarily) not using an imagery Hebrew taxonomy system that classified bats as a ‘species’ of bird.

 

[Michael74]

... turning water into wine when the need arises:

Exactly.

 

[Barbarian]

He was shaping their culture (in this case dietarily) not using an imagery Hebrew taxonomy system that classified bats as a ‘species’ of bird.

Sorry, that's wrong. There's no reason at all for Him to classify bats as birds or classify whales as fish for dietary reasons.

 

[Barbarian]

Truth7t7 said:

Do you believe man landed on the moon as science teaches and believes this to be true?

Barbarian observes:
It's demonstrably true. One of the Apollo missions constructed a reflector system on the Moon, which is used by astronomers to very precisely determine the distance from the Earth to the Moon. Astronomers all over the world use it frequently.

No way to deny it.

Sure there’s a ‘way’ to deny it. People deny truth every day using this way. Case in point:

Authors of an experiment report their conclusion was (and I quote them directly with a link to their 1943 report):

(Barbarian goes to the link and copies the conclusion)

The distribution has been studied experimentally and has been found to conform with the conclusions drawn from the hypothesis that the resistant bacteria arise by mutations of sensitive cells independently of the action of virus.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1209226/pdf/491.pdf

​

There it is. The conclusion is plainly there for you. Yet there are people who deny their conclusion was that mutations arise randomly. You, for example, are still denying what they said, and insisting it's about a data distribution. You're confusing the data with the conclusion. As they wrote the data justifies the conclusion; it's not the conclusion.

It’s an ancient technique, just deny what’s true.

And a futile one. All I had to do was cite the conclusion to shoot it down.

 

[Barbarian]

... turning water into wine when the need arises:

And on the third day, there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. And when the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine!” ​

...​

Now when the head steward tasted the water which had become wine and did not know where it was from—but the servants who had drawn the water knew—the head steward summoned the bridegroom​

​

​

Good example. As I said, God doesn't need to do miracles. He does them to teach us something. He could have simply made the wine go further without anyone being the wiser. But there was a lesson to be imparted.​

​

Likewise with the miracle on the Mount. Everyone could have had their hunger miraculously sated, with no one the wiser. But there was a lesson to be given.​

 

[Barbarian]

Stanley Kuberick Confession

"The Moon Landing Was Fake, The Moon Landings All Were Fake, And I Was The Person Who Filmed It"

Famous film producer "Stanley Kuberick" openly confessed in 1999 that he produced all the moonlandings, he states in the interview that the video taken wasn't going to be released until 15 years after his death, and that's exactly what happened in 12/2015.

You can't deny his words of truth, and posture of guilt and sincerity.

Just as you put your trust in government agencies (NASA) and secular science, you have watched the truth from the creator of the NASA (Apollo Program Moon Landings) his name is Stanley Kuberick.

This appeared on your guy's website:

Stanley Kubric died in March 1999, so that would have been a remarkable interview.

His widow has the following comments:
A spokesman for Kubrick’s widow also proclaimed that “[t]he interview is a lie, Stanley Kubrick has never been interviewed by T.Patrick Murray the whole story is made up, fraudulent and untrue.”

and...

Furthermore, unedited versions of the interview contain hints that the “Stanley Kubrick” in the video is an actor. In a since-deleted clip, the interviewer called his subject “Tom” and instructed him on how to tell the next part of his story:

“You don’t say he said anything. You say what he says. Tom, I’m giving you directions. You don’t have to imitate him (Richard Nixon). You’re not reporting it. You’re repeating it … We’re doing exposition here. That’s how we’re going to sneak it in.”​

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/false-stanley-kubrick-faked-moon-landings/

Quite aside from the obvious problem of how Kubric managed to get that mirror array on the moon to complete his hoax. How do you suppose he did that?

 

[Barbarian]

The market is a complex adaptive system. None of the models used produce accurate predictions.

Economists, on the average seem to be pretty good at predicting things, although there are exceptions. But the great recession and housing crash was predicted at least a year before it happened.

Many have tried. I conversed with a hedge fund programmer who tried everything he could think of, even adaptive parallel processing based on the way human brains work. Nada.

Hopefully, genetics will eventually do a bit better than this.

Population genetics has a long way to go, before they can predict everything. And of course, since extinction has always been the ultimate fate of every species, it's part of the system. For whatever reasons, God doesn't make species permanent, much as He doesn't make humans immortal.

Hmm. A case for active intervention from time to time.

If you don't want species to go extinct, it is. But since it seems to be a normal process in nature, preventing extinction is often like pushing a rope. We can usually delay it, but I'm skeptical that we can save cheetahs, for example.

To customize the species needed to prepare the earth for man's arrival. Various critters played a significant role in terraforming the earth so that it is habitable for man.

"Pre-loading" in ID terms. Denton's take is that the designer made the rules of the Universe so that it would all happen naturally. I think he's pretty close to the truth, except that I think it was God.

Again an argument for intelligent design, and active intervention in preparing the earth for man's arrival.

The beauty of market forces and natural processes, is that they need no "design." They work very well, even if no one actually understands them. Other than the Creator, that is. Capitalism is just the way humans behave economically. Evolution is just the way populations of living things change over time. These things worked even when no one understood them. The downside is that in each case, they work by having winners and losers. And we justifiably intervene to alleviate some of that. No one thinks that we should let people die in the street if they go broke. No one thinks it's O.K. to stop medical care for a kid with a genetic disorder.

Even if such things somewhat impair the efficiency of the market or of natural selection.

Evolution being part of the process used, but not the whole story. Carefully and lovingly tending the garden intended for His beloved children. Then creating Adam in His own image, and subsequently carefully knitting together their descendants in the womb. Souls inside that will live forever. Not merely critters like ants.

That is how we are different. We are natural creatures, but that's not all we are. We are also immortal souls.

Still, I can't empirically prove this, so I will allow you your opinion on the topic. An interesting discussion. I enjoyed it.

Can't remember when I enjoyed one as much as this. Thanks.

 

[Truth7t7]

This appeared on your guy's website:

Stanley Kubric died in March 1999, so that would have been a remarkable interview.

His widow has the following comments:
A spokesman for Kubrick’s widow also proclaimed that “[t]he interview is a lie, Stanley Kubrick has never been interviewed by T.Patrick Murray the whole story is made up, fraudulent and untrue.”

and...

Furthermore, unedited versions of the interview contain hints that the “Stanley Kubrick” in the video is an actor. In a since-deleted clip, the interviewer called his subject “Tom” and instructed him on how to tell the next part of his story:

“You don’t say he said anything. You say what he says. Tom, I’m giving you directions. You don’t have to imitate him (Richard Nixon). You’re not reporting it. You’re repeating it … We’re doing exposition here. That’s how we’re going to sneak it in.”​

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/false-stanley-kubrick-faked-moon-landings/

Quite aside from the obvious problem of how Kubric managed to get that mirror array on the moon to complete his hoax. How do you suppose he did that?

Stanley Kuberick Confession

The interview is dated 1999 no month is mentioned on the video why is it remarkable, Jan, Feb, Mar, you post a website and a date of "May" as if to discredit Ole Stanley Kubrick's body talking, in the interview he signed a Non Disclosure for the interview to be released 15 years after his death, it was released on 12/2015, appears your in denial of truth.

Your in denial of the fact, Stanley Kubrick's body was sitting there talking, would you claim that wasn't ole Stan?

You can quote Snopes, and what his wife claimed all ya want, I watched ole Stan say it from his mouth, and he elaborated several times during his interview.

Would you claim that his lips didn't state

"The Moon Landing Was Fake, The Moon Landings All Were Fake, And I Was The Person Who Filmed It"

 

[Michael74]

Economists, on the average seem to be pretty good at predicting things, although there are exceptions. But the great recession and housing crash was predicted at least a year before it happened.

Interesting that you think that. Despite the thousands of economists working for Wall Street, few money managers took action to sidestep 08. Despite the thousands of economists working for the central bank, they took no effective action before the fact to protect banks from what was coming. They had to scramble after the fact, even begging Congress for $750 billion to bail out banks. For many years after they tried to clean up bank balance sheets. Predicting 08 did not seem to be the consensus among economists, although a few may have predicted it.

"Pre-loading" in ID terms. Denton's take is that the designer made the rules of the Universe so that it would all happen naturally.

Could be, if that was the most efficient way to get the job done. I don't know enough about creating universes to say whether pre-loading or active intervention is the best way to go. Telling the occasional photon to interact with an allele, undetectable by man, would be a trivial task for God.

The beauty of market forces and natural processes, is that they need no "design." They work very well, even if no one actually understands them.

Works best with economic freedom, and honest weights and measures. Venezuela is proof that hyper inflation does not allow capitalism to work efficiently.

No one thinks it's O.K. to stop medical care for a kid with a genetic disorder.

National health care works better for the majority. Europe, Japan, Canada, etc... have better outcomes for the majority.

That is how we are different. We are natural creatures, but that's not all we are. We are also immortal souls.

Yes. Science does not understand the process of creating someone with a soul, spirit, and body. Science cannot even detect the soul or spirit.

Can't remember when I enjoyed one as much as this. Thanks.

Yes, you are very interesting to talk to. Your opinions are well reasoned, and you treat people with respect.

 

[Barbarian]

Stanley Kuberick Confession

The interview is dated 1999 no month is mentioned on the video

The producer's website claimed that he saw Kubrick in May 1999. Which was two months after Kubric had died. Shoddy research, um?

why is it remarkable, Jan, Feb, Mar, you post a website and a date of "May" as if to discredit Ole Stanley Kubrick's body talking, in the interview he signed a Non Disclosure for the interview to be released 15 years after his death, it was released on 12/2015, appears your in denial of truth.

I notice the guy, even in poor lighting, doesn't look or sound like Kubric. And there's this, carelessly left on the tape:
Furthermore, unedited versions of the interview contain hints that the “Stanley Kubrick” in the video is an actor. In a since-deleted clip, the interviewer called his subject “Tom” and instructed him on how to tell the next part of his story:

“You don’t say he said anything. You say what he says. Tom, I’m giving you directions. You don’t have to imitate him (Richard Nixon). You’re not reporting it. You’re repeating it … We’re doing exposition here. That’s how we’re going to sneak it in.”
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/false-stanley-kubrick-faked-moon-landings/

Your in denial of the fact, Stanley Kubrick's body was sitting there talking, would you claim that wasn't ole Stan?

The producer was calling him "Tom." So there is that. Seems to have been an actor, but not Kubric, who as you learned, died two months earlier.

You can quote Snopes, and what his wife claimed all ya want, I watched ole Stan say it from his mouth,

Unless Kubric's nickname was "Tom", it appears not to be so.

And of course, you still have to explain how Kubrick got that mirror array built on the moon. How do you think he did that?