[_ Old Earth _] Evolution Goes To Court

[Solo]

You know what? You're right. All of our societies problems are caused because fewer kids are reading the Bible. And, let no one forget that evil pack of lies based on evidence with logical deductions, evolution.

You forgot the phrase "the lack of" in front of evidence, and you misspelled the word "illogical"; it begins with an "il" at the beginning of the word. :wink:

 

[reznwerks]

Re: nope

[
The Ten Commandments are not and probably never were fully adhered to anywhere. All societies have rules against killing, theft and adultery. The rest are cultural laws and the most important point is that of the punishment for breaking any of them is death. I don't think you advocate killing your kids for backtalk.

The founding fathers wanted government and Christianity to be in an insoluble bond.

Precisely the point Lewis. All that exposure to Christianity (for some and many were deists and agnostics) and they PURPOSELY LEFT OUT ANY REFERNCE TO IT IN THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS. You can't find anywhere any reference to Christianity. The best you can do is maybe find a vague reference to a creator . This is more in the thinking of a Deist not a Christian. They did not want Christianity in government and the lack of reference to it proves it.

Atheists do not know the difference between Deists and Christians. A Deist can be a Christian, and a Christian can be a Deist, so what's the point.
Atheist if not anyone know the difference between Deists and Christians. In fact most Atheists know more about Christianity than Christians themselves because they have done the homework to be where they are today. Again you spout things you heard or don't know anything about when you say Deists can be Christians as well. Deists do not acknowledge Jesus or the bible and there for are not Christians. Deists only acknowledge the probability of a creator not the Christian God. To help you understand what Deism is all about I have provided the site below.
http://www.deism.com/

You might want to read of the U. S. Constitution, which deferred to state qualifications for the electors of members of the U. S. House of Representatives. This provision is significant since the constitutional framers of 1787 knew that in some states--such as South Carolina--the requisite qualifications for suffrage included religious belief.
Some states? In the South only? Here is a link to what you posted and I cannot find anything related to religion or faith. In fact the Article you referenced primarily deals with states rights as it relates to the federal. It is clearly not a "founding fathers" issue.
Note the tribute paid to God in the preamble of all 50 states:
Note that God is not defined as a Christian god. This is the sad fact you fail you understand. It means anyones God. This is a vague reference to a creator only. Again you can find NOTHING in the constituition referencing Christianity in any way. Hardline Christians spout the contrary but there is no evidence for the claim and lazy ones believe it because they are comfortable in listening and not checking.


"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."
... William Penn[/quote]
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:08 ... +god&hl=en

 

[reznwerks]

silly

Oh and one more thing, because they don't have the Bible in schools, look at what the youth are doing today. Drugs and alcohol which I did plenty of when I was in high school, because I had no Biblical direction.
And I also was told a bunch of lies, and I am talking about evolution.

That is the most often quoted most silly assumption being made today. The simple fact is that Hammurabis Code written long before the bible and mirrors much of what is in the bible. You don't need a bible or a God to teach right and wrong as it relates to society. God never entered a courtroom and never rendered a verdict. This is mans responsibility and if he fails to govern the results are obvious.

 

[reznwerks]

thank you

You know what? You're right. All of our societies problems are caused because fewer kids are reading the Bible. And, let no one forget that evil pack of lies based on evidence with logical deductions, evolution.

Thanks for reminding me that faith trumps truth all the time.LOL

 

[Solo]

Re: nope

[
The Ten Commandments are not and probably never were fully adhered to anywhere. All societies have rules against killing, theft and adultery. The rest are cultural laws and the most important point is that of the punishment for breaking any of them is death. I don't think you advocate killing your kids for backtalk.

The founding fathers wanted government and Christianity to be in an insoluble bond.

Precisely the point Lewis. All that exposure to Christianity (for some and many were deists and agnostics) and they PURPOSELY LEFT OUT ANY REFERNCE TO IT IN THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS. You can't find anywhere any reference to Christianity. The best you can do is maybe find a vague reference to a creator . This is more in the thinking of a Deist not a Christian. They did not want Christianity in government and the lack of reference to it proves it.

Atheists do not know the difference between Deists and Christians. A Deist can be a Christian, and a Christian can be a Deist, so what's the point.
Atheist if not anyone know the difference between Deists and Christians. In fact most Atheists know more about Christianity than Christians themselves because they have done the homework to be where they are today. Again you spout things you heard or don't know anything about when you say Deists can be Christians as well. Deists do not acknowledge Jesus or the bible and there for are not Christians. Deists only acknowledge the probability of a creator not the Christian God. To help you understand what Deism is all about I have provided the site below.
http://www.deism.com/

You might want to read of the U. S. Constitution, which deferred to state qualifications for the electors of members of the U. S. House of Representatives. This provision is significant since the constitutional framers of 1787 knew that in some states--such as South Carolina--the requisite qualifications for suffrage included religious belief.
Some states? In the South only? Here is a link to what you posted and I cannot find anything related to religion or faith. In fact the Article you referenced primarily deals with states rights as it relates to the federal. It is clearly not a "founding fathers" issue.
Note the tribute paid to God in the preamble of all 50 states:
Note that God is not defined as a Christian god. This is the sad fact you fail you understand. It means anyones God. This is a vague reference to a creator only. Again you can find NOTHING in the constituition referencing Christianity in any way. Hardline Christians spout the contrary but there is no evidence for the claim and lazy ones believe it because they are comfortable in listening and not checking.


"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."
... William Penn

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:08 ... +god&hl=en

The real sad part about your position is that it is conjecture and opinion without any foundation, and in the finality of all, if your opinion and conjecture is found to be truth, you and I will have the same end and future, no hurt; but, and this is the sad part, if my position is found to be the truth, I will be eternally sound with God forever, and you will be eternally punished separated from God. What a silly chance to play with life trumping God's truth with human finite opinion and conjecture. And I thought you were a whole lot smarter than that.

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." Jesus Christ to unbelievers around 33 AD in Jerusalem.

 

[Lewis]

That is the most often quoted most silly assumption being made today. The simple fact is that Hammurabis Code written long before the bible and mirrors much of what is in the bible. You don't need a bible or a God to teach right and wrong as it relates to society. God never entered a courtroom and never rendered a verdict. This is mans responsibility and if he fails to govern the results are obvious.

Have you lost your mind ?

 

[Lewis]

That is the most often quoted most silly assumption being made today. The simple fact is that Hammurabis Code written long before the bible and mirrors much of what is in the bible. You don't need a bible or a God to teach right and wrong as it relates to society. God never entered a courtroom and never rendered a verdict. This is mans responsibility and if he fails to govern the results are obvious.

Have you lost your mind ?

 

[reznwerks]

in what way

That is the most often quoted most silly assumption being made today. The simple fact is that Hammurabis Code written long before the bible and mirrors much of what is in the bible. You don't need a bible or a God to teach right and wrong as it relates to society. God never entered a courtroom and never rendered a verdict. This is mans responsibility and if he fails to govern the results are obvious.

Have you lost your mind ?

On the contrary have you lost yours? Have you ever seen God render a verdict or overturn a bad court decision? Are you aware that many civilizations have existed quite peaceably and civily without the Christian God? Are you aware that Gods were worshipped thousands of years before Christianity? Have you ever considered the prospect that those Gods which were worshipped earlier than Christianity were in fact the true God?

 

[reznwerks]

Re: nope

[

The real sad part about your position is that it is conjecture and opinion without any foundation, and in the finality of all, if your opinion and conjecture is found to be truth, you and I will have the same end and future, no hurt; but, and this is the sad part, if my position is found to be the truth, I will be eternally sound with God forever, and you will be eternally punished separated from God. What a silly chance to play with life trumping God's truth with human finite opinion and conjecture. And I thought you were a whole lot smarter than that.
You are correct in that if I am right we will both have the same end.As I said before if there is a God and he is going to judge me he will do so based on how I have lived not on what or if I believe. On the other hand you are basing and living the only life you will ever have on the assumption that you will be rewarded someday based on absolutely no evidence what so ever

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." Jesus Christ to unbelievers around 33 AD in Jerusalem.
It's a strong arguement but what else would you expect from someone trying to persuade another? The real issue is does it have any basis in reality. The answer is no. Outside of the bible we have no evidence that Jesus actually lived, no evidence for the apostles, no confirmation of the claims and penalties made in the bible etc etc etc.

 

[Solo]

Re: nope

The real sad part about your position is that it is conjecture and opinion without any foundation, and in the finality of all, if your opinion and conjecture is found to be truth, you and I will have the same end and future, no hurt; but, and this is the sad part, if my position is found to be the truth, I will be eternally sound with God forever, and you will be eternally punished separated from God. What a silly chance to play with life trumping God's truth with human finite opinion and conjecture. And I thought you were a whole lot smarter than that.

You are correct in that if I am right we will both have the same end.As I said before if there is a God and he is going to judge me he will do so based on how I have lived not on what or if I believe. On the other hand you are basing and living the only life you will ever have on the assumption that you will be rewarded someday based on absolutely no evidence what so ever

The evidence that I have is the witness of the Holy Spirit that came to dwell within me once I believed in the Son of God as my savior upon the prompting of the Holy Spirit as God the Father drew me to himself. I did not have the Holy Spirit for twenty-eight years of my life, and would not have known Him or His witness without believing in Jesus with childlike faith. Once that was accomplished I came to understand the scriptures that I was not able to for twenty-eight years. That is all the evidence that I needed, unlike the the evil and adulterous generation that Jesus faced that searched for phyical evidence that they determined would be truth.

38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Matthew 12:38-40

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." Jesus Christ to unbelievers around 33 AD in Jerusalem.

It's a strong arguement but what else would you expect from someone trying to persuade another? The real issue is does it have any basis in reality. The answer is no. Outside of the bible we have no evidence that Jesus actually lived, no evidence for the apostles, no confirmation of the claims and penalties made in the bible etc etc etc.

The basis of truth is found in all that you see in this world. God's creation shows the truth of his Word. His Word reveals that man is condemned in his current position, and apart from God's redemption, is lost. All are born with an innate understanding of God, and one's choices throughout life make up one's beliefs. The Holy Spirit of God inspired Paul to write the following:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; 6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain 8 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:18-32

I hope that you find the truth that God has freely given to all mankind, so that you might obtain the faith to build a work pleasing to God almighty.

 

[PHIL121]

Getting pretty far off-topic, I see....


As for the actual trial in civil court about teaching evolution vs. intellegent design, I haven't heard much since the first day.

Interesting to hear that the plantiffs claimed teachers were saying "evolution isn't a proven fact".

Well, guess what? It isn't!!!

Sometimes these evolutionist treat Darwin's theory like a religion.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: nope

The real sad part about your position is that it is conjecture and opinion without any foundation, and in the finality of all, if your opinion and conjecture is found to be truth, you and I will have the same end and future, no hurt; but, and this is the sad part, if my position is found to be the truth, I will be eternally sound with God forever, and you will be eternally punished separated from God. What a silly chance to play with life trumping God's truth with human finite opinion and conjecture. And I thought you were a whole lot smarter than that.

You are correct in that if I am right we will both have the same end.As I said before if there is a God and he is going to judge me he will do so based on how I have lived not on what or if I believe. On the other hand you are basing and living the only life you will ever have on the assumption that you will be rewarded someday based on absolutely no evidence what so ever

The evidence that I have is the witness of the Holy Spirit that came to dwell within me once I believed in the Son of God as my savior upon the prompting of the Holy Spirit as God the Father drew me to himself. I did not have the Holy Spirit for twenty-eight years of my life, and would not have known Him or His witness without believing in Jesus with childlike faith.
Did you ever wonder why you needed"childlike faith" to accept Christianity? The answer is that an adult mind knows better. What better arguement to get people to accept something than to surrender there better judgement at the door and become receptive to brainwashing.This sounds like something Satan would devise not something the creator of the universe who is trying to have a relationship with all mankind would do.

Once that was accomplished I came to understand the scriptures that I was not able to for twenty-eight years. That is all the evidence that I needed, unlike the the evil and adulterous generation that Jesus faced that searched for phyical evidence that they determined would be truth.
So what you are saying is that truth was not found and no evidence other than faith is all their is.

38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Matthew 12:38-40
The problem here is that Jesus WAS NOT in the belly of the earth for three days and three nights no matter how you do the new math. Jesus also said some standing here would taste of death before his return. The apostles also believed this. They were all disappointed and Jesus hasn't even checked in again to let us know he reached his destination let alone ready to come back.

It's a strong arguement but what else would you expect from someone trying to persuade another? The real issue is does it have any basis in reality. The answer is no. Outside of the bible we have no evidence that Jesus actually lived, no evidence for the apostles, no confirmation of the claims and penalties made in the bible etc etc etc.

The basis of truth is found in all that you see in this world.
Absolutely. When are you going to accept it.

God's creation shows the truth of his Word.
No evidence for the reality of God.

His Word reveals that man is condemned in his current position, and apart from God's redemption, is lost.
Only for Christians.

All are born with an innate understanding of God, and one's choices throughout life make up one's beliefs.
No , everyone is born an atheist until something is taught to the child to change him or her. There is nothing in reality to identify a God.

The Holy Spirit of God inspired Paul to write the following:
Did God inspire Paul to contradict much of what Jesus supposedly said?
http://home.inu.net/skeptic/usedcar.html


I hope that you find the truth that God has freely given to all mankind, so that you might obtain the faith to build a work pleasing to God almighty.
If it was "truth" I would nt need faith would I? It would be obvious would'nt it?

[/quote]

 

[Solo]

Your perspective is strictly seen with the eyes of flesh, and you have been blinded to the spiritual by the enemy, for you have no spiritual sight.
Your answers indicate more than just an unbelief, they show an abhorrence to the truth just like the one who blinded you.

If you pass from this life as an unbeliever, know this, I have warned you from an eternity of punishment side by side with your god of this world. May this not happen, and may Jesus Christ come into your life so that you too will be saved.

 

[PHIL121]

The PBS report on the case....

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week905/news.html

 

[unred typo]

My two cents worth:

The goal of education should be to train a child to use their own brain, not to fill it with information that they will never use. In public school, where a diverse group of parents from a multiplicity of religious and cultural backgrounds support the finances of this endeavor, they should be taught how to read with comprehension and the problem solving skills of math and to effectively communicate both verbally and written. They should learn geography and the history and laws of this country. There is little if any controversy in those things. The school day could be shortened to a couple hours. The remainder of the time is only glorified baby sitting. It could be used for various learning clubs, not funded by public money. Each child could have an allowance to spend for these activities.

Sports are terrific. Languages are wonderful to know. Religion is important. Science is great. So are astronomy, geology, biology, music, gymnastics, farming, mechanics, art, poetry, drama, homemaking, child rearing, carpentry, cake making, boating, fishing, dance and many other things. All of them could be offered on an elective basis with the child/ parents given their choice and the number of students opting for the course would determine the amount of financial support given to it. Teaching children about things that have no interest to them will only bore them and waste limited taxpayer funds. This country operates on the basis of supply and demand. Why not the school system? With more emphasis on teaching the actual skills to learn instead of teaching specific subjects, the child will be better prepared to advance into whatever field he/she has an aptitude for. Don’t just give them a fish, teach them how to fish.

 

[reznwerks]

faith

My two cents worth:

The goal of education should be to train a child to use their own brain, not to fill it with information that they will never use.
Then why would you advocate an idea from a source that insists you accept what is there based on faith alone without any evidence and the evidence that exists contradicts the claims from the bible. By the way we are talking about the bible and not some generic creator like some have underhandedly spouted. There is no doubt about that otherwise we could take any ancient religion and their superstition and insert their beliefs on creation and teach it as well.

In public school, where a diverse group of parents from a multiplicity of religious and cultural backgrounds support the finances of this endeavor, they should be taught how to read with comprehension and the problem solving skills of math and to effectively communicate both verbally and written.

When those skills and diciplines you say you support are used the ID theory loses out every time so why teach it?

.
Religion is important. To whom and for why?What value does religion pose for success and well being? Or is it just the "Christian religion you are promoting? Would you be so gung ho on Islam or Hinduism? As I said before if you rear a child properly as to what is expected of him or her a threat of a God or punishment is not needed or provable.

Science is great. So are astronomy, geology, biology, music, gymnastics, farming, mechanics, art, poetry, drama, homemaking, child rearing, carpentry, cake making, boating, fishing, dance and many other things. All of them could be offered on an elective basis with the child/ parents given their choice and the number of students opting for the course would determine the amount of financial support given to it.
Uh, thats how it is done now.


Teaching children about things that have no interest to them will only bore them and waste limited taxpayer funds.
Children often don't know what is best for them and children often don't know what interests them until they try it. Hence the need for a variety of subjects and courses for them to learn and decide.

This country operates on the basis of supply and demand. Why not the school system?
The problem I have with the school system is the outrageous salaries commanded by teachers that have those paying their salaries by the ++++ thanks to the teachers unions. They continue to rake in bigger and bigger bucks for providing a "canned curriculum" . By that I mean the books are off the shelf, the tests are off the shelf the answers to the tests are off the shelf and many teachers teaching the subjects are not certified to do so and therefore incompetant especially in the math and sciences areas. I know it's unfair to categorize all teachers in this light and some teachers are excellent at what they do . However they too are caught up in the "dumbing down of children" in order to create more opportunities in the higher levels.

With more emphasis on teaching the actual skills to learn instead of teaching specific subjects, the child will be better prepared to advance into whatever field he/she has an aptitude for. Don’t just give them a fish, teach them how to fish.
Proper learning skills can be taught in a few days at most. It requires effort on the student to implement these skills. Teachers need to learn more on how to teach as well.

 

[unred typo]

Reznwerks wrote:

Then why would you advocate an idea from a source that insists you accept what is there based on faith alone without any evidence and the evidence that exists contradicts the claims from the bible. By the way we are talking about the bible and not some generic creator like some have underhandedly spouted. There is no doubt about that otherwise we could take any ancient religion and their superstition and insert their beliefs on creation and teach it as well.

Most religions have a deity that is the creator of everything. ID is quite generic, certainly as generic as evolution is in regard to it’s religious view, or rather anti-religious view.


Reznwerks wrote:

When those skills and diciplines you say you support are used the ID theory loses out every time so why teach it?

Only in your opinion. The skills I advocate teaching exclusively equip children to read and evaluate the issues themselves. Does that worry you?


Reznwerks wrote:

(“Religion is important.â€Â)
To whom and for why?What value does religion pose for success and well being? Or is it just the "Christian religion you are promoting? Would you be so gung ho on Islam or Hinduism? As I said before if you rear a child properly as to what is expected of him or her a threat of a God or punishment is not needed or provable.

I see no problem of teaching children what all religions teach. Information is not an enemy to Christianity but propaganda masquerading as ‘fact’ is.



Reznwerks wrote:

Uh, thats how it is done now.

Uh, where did you learn to read? When I say, "All of them could be offered on an elective basis with the child/ parents given their choice and the number of students opting for the course would determine the amount of financial support given to it," I’m describing a voucher system that would offer elective subjects on a supply and demand basis. The amount of financial support given to each subject would be determined by the number of students actually interested in learning about it. Parents and their children would be in charge of their own education, not the state. The state would only assure that every child learned to read, write and do math correctly, something they can‘t seem to effectively do now.



Reznwerks wrote:

Children often don't know what is best for them and children often don't know what interests them until they try it. Hence the need for a variety of subjects and courses for them to learn and decide.

Parents know more about what their children’s interests, strengths and weaknesses are and they are in a position to care more about the individual child than a state bureaucracy. Besides, it’s our money. How would you like having your child forced to learn water ballet or poodle clipping or moose hunting using your hard earned tax dollars? Teaching evolution to my children makes as much sense to me.


Reznwerks wrote:

The problem I have with the school system is the outrageous salaries commanded by teachers that have those paying their salaries by the ++++ thanks to the teachers unions. They continue to rake in bigger and bigger bucks for providing a "canned curriculum" . By that I mean the books are off the shelf, the tests are off the shelf the answers to the tests are off the shelf and many teachers teaching the subjects are not certified to do so and therefore incompetant especially in the math and sciences areas. I know it's unfair to categorize all teachers in this light and some teachers are excellent at what they do . However they too are caught up in the "dumbing down of children" in order to create more opportunities in the higher levels.

Well, we agree in one area, although for different reasons I‘m sure.


Reznwerks wrote:

Proper learning skills can be taught in a few days at most. It requires effort on the student to implement these skills. Teachers need to learn more on how to teach as well.

The teaching of these basic skills would take far less hours of the school day. The rest of the time could be used to learn things that each child would actually need to be successful in their own areas of interest. Teachers would be forced to provide quality lessons that engaged their students and they would spend less time trying to involve those who have no aptitude or inclination to even be there.

 

[reznwerks]

religion

Reznwerks wrote:

Then why would you advocate an idea from a source that insists you accept what is there based on faith alone without any evidence and the evidence that exists contradicts the claims from the bible. By the way we are talking about the bible and not some generic creator like some have underhandedly spouted. There is no doubt about that otherwise we could take any ancient religion and their superstition and insert their beliefs on creation and teach it as well.

Most religions have a deity that is the creator of everything. ID is quite generic, certainly as generic as evolution is in regard to it’s religious view, or rather anti-religious view.
On the contrary most of the top religions DO NOT have a deity that is the creator of everything. Only Islam can claim this and they have their roots with the bible. Evolution is not a religion as it uses evidence as validation for it's views as opposed to faith or rather hope.


Reznwerks wrote:[quote:e465c] When those skills and diciplines you say you support are used the ID theory loses out every time so why teach it?

Only in your opinion. The skills I advocate teaching exclusively equip children to read and evaluate the issues themselves. Does that worry you?
If you follow your advice and children follow your advice then religion will be on its deathbed. Only Christianity demands you not question and accept on faith without evidence. If you question you doubt, if you doubt you are not a Christian. You are being hypocritical but I don't know if it is on purpose or you simply don't realize it.


Reznwerks wrote:

(“Religion is important.â€Â)
To whom and for why?What value does religion pose for success and well being? Or is it just the "Christian religion you are promoting? Would you be so gung ho on Islam or Hinduism? As I said before if you rear a child properly as to what is expected of him or her a threat of a God or punishment is not needed or provable.

I see no problem of teaching children what all religions teach. Information is not an enemy to Christianity but propaganda masquerading as ‘fact’ is.
Christianity is an enemy to information. It's Christianity that wants to deny the obvious evidence and ignore the repeatable tests that science provides in exchange for faith and hope of things not seen and not testable and therefor a pig in a poke. Surly if one uses the reasoning abilities and logic that you advocate religion will be on the losing side. The whole world laughs at the idea of ID . The whole world knows the obvious and only a small faction of Christians have deluded themselves into believing what round is square and up is down.



Reznwerks wrote:

Uh, thats how it is done now.

Uh, where did you learn to read? When I say, "All of them could be offered on an elective basis with the child/ parents given their choice and the number of students opting for the course would determine the amount of financial support given to it," I’m describing a voucher system that would offer elective subjects on a supply and demand basis. The amount of financial support given to each subject would be determined by the number of students actually interested in learning about it. Parents and their children would be in charge of their own education, not the state. The state would only assure that every child learned to read, write and do math correctly, something they can‘t seem to effectively do now.
Sorry to burst your bubble but what you want already exists in the public school system of which the vast majority of children attend.



Reznwerks wrote:

Children often don't know what is best for them and children often don't know what interests them until they try it. Hence the need for a variety of subjects and courses for them to learn and decide.

[/quote:e465c]
Parents know more about what their children’s interests, strengths and weaknesses are and they are in a position to care more about the individual child than a state bureaucracy. Besides, it’s our money. How would you like having your child forced to learn water ballet or poodle clipping or moose hunting using your hard earned tax dollars? Teaching evolution to my children makes as much sense to me.
Parents think they know what their children like but unfortunately children are human beings and only children will determine what their strengths and likes are from experiencing different subjects. I don't know of any children forced into ballet or poodle clipping unless its from the parents perspective first. It certainly doesn't occur in the public school system. Teaching evolution is necessary in order to become a more educated person since just about everyone is interested in where they came from and all the evidence points to the disiplines taught in evolution and is accepted by 98%of all scientists that are involved in its study.

 

[unred typo]

Reznwerks wrote:

On the contrary most of the top religions DO NOT have a deity that is the creator of everything. Only Islam can claim this and they have their roots with the bible. Evolution is not a religion as it uses evidence as validation for it's views as opposed to faith or rather hope.

You make these statements as if you were all wise and all knowing and we should believe you on faith. Too bad you’re so misinformed and so wrong. I ran out of time or my cut/paste list below would be twice as long: (none of them are from Christian sites that I’m aware of, so you can trust them. ) :wink:
Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism of Christianity all believe in a creator God.

MUSLIM There is but one God, Allah (Arabic term). Allah is indivisible, has no equals, is the creator of all

JEWISH One God (whose name must not be pronounced) has created all things

SIKH believe that God created the whole universe.

DEIST believe a “Creator†formed our universe

HINDU Hinduism is one example; they recognize Brahman as the single deity. Brahma is the creator of the universe who was born from Hiranyagarbha (the golden nucleus). When he took form, Brahma placed the Hiranyagarbha back in the waters and inspired the creation of the universe. Every living being in the universe originates from him and is an aspect of Brahma. Late Vedic literature describes Brahma as creator of Soma and Surya (the Sun and the Moon), he gives them their place in the sky. He brings Agni (fire) into being and sets Vayu (the wind) free to roam the world and Varuna (water) springs to life on earth.

Some Wiccans believe in a single deity about which they know little.

First, at the time of European contact, all but the simplest indigenous cultures in North America had developed coherent religious systems that included cosmologies--creation myths, transmitted orally from one generation to the next, which purported to explain how those societies had come into being. Second, most native peoples worshiped an all-powerful, all-knowing Creator or "Master Spirit" (a being that assumed a variety of forms and both genders). They also venerated or placated a host of lesser supernatural entities, including an evil god who dealt out disaster, suffering, and death. Third and finally, the members of most tribes believed in the immortality of the human soul and an afterlife, the main feature of which was the abundance of every good thing that made earthly life secure and pleasant.

According to traditional American Indian beliefs, the Creator made all the birds of the sky when the World was new. Of all the birds, the Creator chose the Eagle to be the leader... the Master of the Sky.

Choctaw
The Choctaw speak of a great mound, Nanih Wiya, from which the Great Spirit created the first of their people, who then crawled through a cave into the light of day.

Iroquois (northeast U.S.)
In the Iroquois theogony there seem to have been three classes of supernatural phenomena: spirits, ghosts of the dead, and the gods. In addition there was a Great Spirit, together with his satanic counterpart.

The Micmac Indians say that when Manitou, the Great Spirit, was making the Continent of the New World, he found that he had much material left over in the shape of rocks, swamps, and useless trees. So he formed a big rubbish heap by casting it all into the sea to the north-east, and called it Wee-soc-kadao.

Muskogee (southeast U.S.) Each town had a hearth with a fire burning that represented the entire community and the people's connection to their ancestors and the Maker of Breath [the highest god].

Egypt:[These are] the; words which the god Neb-er-tcher spake after he had, come into being:- "I am he who came into being in the form of the god Khepera, and I am the creator of that which came into being, that is to say, I am the creator of everything which came into being: now the things which I created, and which came forth out of my month after that I had come into being myself were exceedingly many. The sky (or heaven) had not come into being, the earth did not (exist, and the children of the earth, and the creeping, things, had not been made at that time. I myself raised them up from out of Nu, from a state of helpless inertness.

Ancient Mexican: Huehueteotl (Old, old God): the Old Man, Old One of the Fire, Eduardo Arias. Also known as Xiuhtecuhtli (Precious Lord), he is the ancient fire god, sometimes identified with the creator-diety Ometeotl (Dual God).

In Africa, the creator has as many names as there are dialects:
Abassi, Creator god of the Efik people in Nigeria.

Adroa, God of the Lugbara people. Adroa has two aspects: one good and one evil. The creator of Heaven and Earth.

Arebati, Sky and moon god of the Pygmies of Zaire. He created the first man from clay and brought him to life. He is referred to as afa or father.

Asa, God of the Akamba people of Kenya. A strong yet merciful lord and god of sustenance and consolation. He helps when humans can't. Asa is also known as Mwatuangi, "distributor", Mulungu, "creator", and Mumbi, "fashioner".

Bumba, Creator god of the Boshongo of Zaire, who vomited up the sun, earth, and all living creatures including man.

Cghene, Supreme god of the Isoko of Nigeria. Considered too remote from people to be worshipped.

Chuku, Supreme god of the Ibo peoples, all good comes from him. The creator god, he also brings the rains which make the plants grow.

Deng, Creator, rain, fertility, and sky god of the Dinka tribe.

Imana, Creator God of the Banyarwanda people.

Jok, Creator god of the Alur tribesmen of Uganda and Zaire. He is also known as Jok Odudu, "god of birth".

Kaang, Creator god of the African Bushmen. He is the maker of all things and is responsible for all natural phenomenon. He is part of all things but especially the mantis and caterpillar.

Kalunga, Originally the ancestral god of the Lunda people of Angola, Zaire and Zambia. Later he became the supreme being, a god of the sky and of creation. He is all-knowing and all-seeing, and a righteous judge of the dead whose decisions are characterized by wisdom and compassion. He is also the god of the sea, where the dead dwell.

Khonvoum, Hunter god of the Pygmies. The creator of mankind and the jungles. He is responsible for assuring that the sun will rise each day. He carries a bow made of two snakes that appears to be a rainbow to men.

Kombu, Creator god.

Leza, The creator god of the Central African people. He is the supreme god and gave the people their customs. He is also a sky god, responsible for rain, thunder, and wind.

Massim-Biambe, Omnipotent creator god of the Mundang people of the Congo.

Mawu, Supreme deity of the Fon people. She created the universe. Her husband is Lisa.

Mbomba, Creator god and ancestral deity of the Mongo people. He is master of life and death. The sun, moon, and man are his children. He is also known as Nzakomba.

Mukuru, The ancestral god and creator god of the Herero bushmen of Namibia. He shows his compassion by providing the rain, caring for the elderly, and healing the sick.

Mulungu, The creator god in eastern Africa, from Kamba people in the north to the Zambesi people in the south. Many peoples, such as the Nyamwezi of Tanzania, worship him as a sky god whose voice is thunder.

Nana Buluku, Supreme god of the Fon tribe. He is the father of the twins Lisa and Mawu.

Nyalitch, Supreme god of the Dinka. God of the sky and rain.

Nzame, Supreme god of the Fan people of the Congo.

Obassi, Supreme deity of the Ekoi and Ibibio of the Niger Delta.

Obatala, One of the major deities of the Yoruba people. With his brother Odudua he forms the primordial pair of gods. He is the creator of the human body in which his father Olorun breathes the soul. He is the sky-god and god of the North, and the first Orisha to be created. He helped to create humans.

Pamba, The creator deity of the Ovambo people.

Quamta, Supreme god of the Xhosa people of South Africa, a people of the Transkei. Quamta is worshipped at stone mounds to which one stone is added by each worshipper.

Raluvumbha, Supreme god of the Baventa of Transvaal in Southern Africa.

Umvelinqangi, Creator god of the Zulu. He manifests as thunder and earthquakes.

Unumbotte, Creator god of the Basari of Togo.

Wele, Supreme god of the Kavirondo (Vugusu) in Kenya. Manifests as two personalities: Omuwanga, the gentle 'white' god and Gumali the 'black' god of misfortune. He first created the heavens, the sun and the moon, and the other celestial bodies. Finally he created the earth and mankind.

Yangombi, African god of creation.





Reznwerks wrote:

If you follow your advice and children follow your advice then religion will be on its deathbed. Only Christianity demands you not question and accept on faith without evidence. If you question you doubt, if you doubt you are not a Christian. You are being hypocritical but I don't know if it is on purpose or you simply don't realize it.

Obviously religion would not be on it‘s death bed or you would be the first to advocate it.. Teaching exclusively the skills to read, write, and do math would equip children to read and evaluate the issues themselves. Why does that worry you?
A Christian is a follower of Christ. A hypocritical Christian is one who claims to follow Christ and does not do what he taught us to do. ( love one another and God, forgive as you were forgiven by God, the golden rule, humility, turn the other cheek, ) Faith is trusting what Christ said will bring you to God, forgiven and possessing eternal life. It is by faith because we will not receive the reward until we die. Since we have the witness of his faithful followers, we know Jesus tested the hypothesis and shown it to be correct.

Reznwerks wrote:

Christianity is an enemy to information. It's Christianity that wants to deny the obvious evidence and ignore the repeatable tests that science provides in exchange for faith and hope of things not seen and not testable and therefor a pig in a poke. Surly if one uses the reasoning abilities and logic that you advocate religion will be on the losing side. The whole world laughs at the idea of ID . The whole world knows the obvious and only a small faction of Christians have deluded themselves into believing what round is square and up is down.

ID is not only reasonable and accepted worldwide but even evolutionists can be believers in ID, so it is a more universal teaching than the ToE. I am an example of one who believes in evolution but only as it can be shown and proven in real life and fossil evidence. One doesn’t have to believe in millions of years to accept evolutionary changes in the creation. In case you haven’t heard, the evolution of man from non human to man has not been proven, btw. The beef I have with the ToE is the way it takes perfectly good information and real evidence and turns it into baloney.


Reznwerks wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble but what you want already exists in the public school system of which the vast majority of children attend.

I said: “I’m describing a voucher system that would offer elective subjects on a supply and demand basis. The amount of financial support given to each subject would be determined by the number of students actually interested in learning about it. Parents and their children would be in charge of their own education, not the state. The state would only assure that every child learned to read, write and do math correctly, something they can‘t seem to effectively do now.†Does the state give vouchers for children to attend private schools of their choice to learn ID, creation science, and the real history of this world?



Reznwerks wrote:

Parents think they know what their children like but unfortunately children are human beings and only children will determine what their strengths and likes are from experiencing different subjects. I don't know of any children forced into ballet or poodle clipping unless its from the parents perspective first. It certainly doesn't occur in the public school system. Teaching evolution is necessary in order to become a more educated person since just about everyone is interested in where they came from and all the evidence points to the disiplines taught in evolution and is accepted by 98%of all scientists that are involved in its study.

Why shouldn’t a child be able to elect into ballet class or poodle clipping instead of learning about the layers of dirt and dug up bones of the ToE? Just because that is your security blanket god-substitute, doesn’t mean all children should be forced to study it.
Children can be educated about the ToE without it being presented as fact to those who don’t believe it. You want the right to teach my children that what I believe is wrong and you want me to finance it. “98% of all scientists†is another one of your fabrications. Why don’t you just say 100% of evolutionists believe in evolution? That makes as much sense and is just as impressive.

 

[reznwerks]

lol

Reznwerks wrote:

On the contrary most of the top religions DO NOT have a deity that is the creator of everything. Only Islam can claim this and they have their roots with the bible. Evolution is not a religion as it uses evidence as validation for it's views as opposed to faith or rather hope.

You make these statements as if you were all wise and all knowing and we should believe you on faith. Too bad you’re so misinformed and so wrong. I ran out of time or my cut/paste list below would be twice as long: (none of them are from Christian sites that I’m aware of, so you can trust them. ) :wink:
Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism of Christianity all believe in a creator God.

LOL Perhaps you are not aware that all those fall under the big unbrella called C H R I S T I A N I T Y. Bible based

MUSLIM There is but one God, Allah (Arabic term). Allah is indivisible, has no equals, is the creator of all
Old testament ,bible based


JEWISH One God (whose name must not be pronounced) has created all things
Old Testament bible based

SIKH believe that God created the whole universe.
Not a major religion.

DEIST believe a “Creator†formed our universe
Not a religion at all. You really have to pay attention next time.

HINDU Hinduism is one example; they recognize Brahman as the single deity. Brahma is the creator of the universe who was born from Hiranyagarbha (the golden nucleus). When he took form, Brahma placed the Hiranyagarbha back in the waters and inspired the creation of the universe. Every living being in the universe originates from him and is an aspect of Brahma. Late Vedic literature describes Brahma as creator of Soma and Surya (the Sun and the Moon), he gives them their place in the sky. He brings Agni (fire) into being and sets Vayu (the wind) free to roam the world and Varuna (water) springs to life on earth.
Hindus have several different beliefs regarding creation therefor they do not constitute a major belief.

Some Wiccans believe in a single deity about which they know little.
Hardly a major belief system and certainly can be argued as to whether they are a religion or personal belief system.

First, at the time of European contact, all but the simplest indigenous cultures in North America had developed coherent religious systems that included cosmologies--creation myths, transmitted orally from one generation to the next, which purported to explain how those societies had come into being. Second, most native peoples worshiped an all-powerful, all-knowing Creator or "Master Spirit" (a being that assumed a variety of forms and both genders). They also venerated or placated a host of lesser supernatural entities, including an evil god who dealt out disaster, suffering, and death. Third and finally, the members of most tribes believed in the immortality of the human soul and an afterlife, the main feature of which was the abundance of every good thing that made earthly life secure and pleasant.
This is just too easy.



Reznwerks wrote: [quote:4a751] If you follow your advice and children follow your advice then religion will be on its deathbed. Only Christianity demands you not question and accept on faith without evidence. If you question you doubt, if you doubt you are not a Christian. You are being hypocritical but I don't know if it is on purpose or you simply don't realize it.

Obviously religion would not be on it‘s death bed or you would be the first to advocate it.. Teaching exclusively the skills to read, write, and do math would equip children to read and evaluate the issues themselves. Why does that worry you? [
It doesn't worry me. Why do you think it does? My point was if we teach children as you suggest (and I agree) to be able to think and reason, when religion is tested it will ultimately fail and be on its deathbed.


A Christian is a follower of Christ. A hypocritical Christian is one who claims to follow Christ and does not do what he taught us to do. ( love one another and God, forgive as you were forgiven by God, the golden rule, humility, turn the other cheek, )
Confusious was around about 500 years before Jesus saying the same thing.

Faith is trusting what Christ said will bring you to God, forgiven and possessing eternal life.
No evidence

It is by faith because we will not receive the reward until we die. Since we have the witness of his faithful followers, we know Jesus tested the hypothesis and shown it to be correct.
We don't have witness because we have no evidence of the claim and we still have no evidence that Jesus actually lived let alone did any miracles.

Reznwerks wrote:

Christianity is an enemy to information. It's Christianity that wants to deny the obvious evidence and ignore the repeatable tests that science provides in exchange for faith and hope of things not seen and not testable and therefor a pig in a poke. Surly if one uses the reasoning abilities and logic that you advocate religion will be on the losing side. The whole world laughs at the idea of ID . The whole world knows the obvious and only a small faction of Christians have deluded themselves into believing what round is square and up is down.

ID is not only reasonable and accepted worldwide but even evolutionists can be believers in ID, so it is a more universal teaching than the ToE.
You have been shown the statistics over and over and they don't agree with your beliefs. The whole world is laughing at the US because of this nonsense in PA. Its only a small fragment of Christians that refuse to accept the plain and simple fact that evolution is real.

I am an example of one who believes in evolution but only as it can be shown and proven in real life and fossil evidence. One doesn’t have to believe in millions of years to accept evolutionary changes in the creation.
Sorry but you do because scientists would only laugh at you and your beliefs because you can't have the fossils etc on your terms. The multitude of repeatable tests say otherwise.

In case you haven’t heard, the evolution of man from non human to man has not been proven, btw.
He has always been human. As I said man is not desecded from apes as man is a hominid that is decended from himself. Keep trying you might get this yet.

The beef I have with the ToE is the way it takes perfectly good information and real evidence and turns it into baloney.
It must be really good baloney because the evidence for it continues to pile up.


Reznwerks wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble but what you want already exists in the public school system of which the vast majority of children attend.

I said: “I’m describing a voucher system that would offer elective subjects on a supply and demand basis.
That is how the public school system works. If you don't get enough students for a class it is dropped.

The amount of financial support given to each subject would be determined by the number of students actually interested in learning about it.
The most financial support required for most subjects is a salary. If you want to teach children special subjects based on a fee there are enough independent classes available outside the school system to accomplish this.

Parents and their children would be in charge of their own education, not the state.
Most parents are not knowledgable to determine what courses will be needed in the future and this lack of knowledge will short change the child forever.

The state would only assure that every child learned to read, write and do math correctly, something they can‘t seem to effectively do now.†Does the state give vouchers for children to attend private schools of their choice to learn ID, creation science, and the real history of this world?
Why should the state give out vouchers to private schools to do what they are supposed to do the first time. If the state is not doing its job then I suggest they get their act together not pay twice for the same job.



Reznwerks wrote:

Parents think they know what their children like but unfortunately children are human beings and only children will determine what their strengths and likes are from experiencing different subjects. I don't know of any children forced into ballet or poodle clipping unless its from the parents perspective first. It certainly doesn't occur in the public school system. Teaching evolution is necessary in order to become a more educated person since just about everyone is interested in where they came from and all the evidence points to the disiplines taught in evolution and is accepted by 98%of all scientists that are involved in its study.

Why shouldn’t a child be able to elect into ballet class or poodle clipping instead of learning about the layers of dirt and dug up bones of the ToE?
They should be allowed to pick and choose and often do. What is your point? As to dirt and bones that is science as accepted by the vast majority of scientists. It is a legitamate course and needed if they plan on going on to college.

Just because that is your security blanket god-substitute, doesn’t mean all children should be forced to study it.
You can get all he religion outside of school you want. No one is stopping you. You can send your children to a religious school or teach them at home if you want.


Children can be educated about the ToE without it being presented as fact to those who don’t believe it.
Evolution is fact and if you went to the many sites I listed for you , you would understand that.

You want the right to teach my children that what I believe is wrong and you want me to finance it. “98% of all scientists†is another one of your fabrications. Why don’t you just say 100% of evolutionists believe in evolution?
OK 100% of evolutionists believe in evolution but its not a fabrication.
"Nine out of 10 Ohio scientists from///// secular and religious//// colleges and universities responding to a survey say that intelligent design is primarily a religious view and not part of science."
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:l7 ... tion&hl=en
"This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism."
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:MR ... tion&hl=en
Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to the great ape species
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:qi ... tion&hl=en


That makes as much sense and is just as impressive.[/quote:4a751]