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Dave... said:Would everyone here agree that it would be a misconception to believe that naturalism embodies the very essence of scientific objectivity, and that the entire religion, or philosophy of naturalism is built on a faith based premise?
Be honest.
Dave
SyntaxVorlon said:Another iteration of the semantics mistake so often made on this board:
Faith is a type of belief that is unverifiable, it is belief for its own sake and cannot be corrolated with reality.
Naturalism embraces science because it is rejecting science is unreasonably skeptical and there are no other sets of answers to questions about the universe that stand up to reasonable skepticism.
Heidi said:SyntaxVorlon said:Another iteration of the semantics mistake so often made on this board:
Faith is a type of belief that is unverifiable, it is belief for its own sake and cannot be corrolated with reality.
Naturalism embraces science because it is rejecting science is unreasonably skeptical and there are no other sets of answers to questions about the universe that stand up to reasonable skepticism.
And how is evolution verifiable? Why are apes only breeding apes today and humans only breeding humans, some of whom have defects?Today's reality is backed up by the bible that animals only produce offspring of their own kind. What reality today backs up evolution? :o
Why are apes only breeding apes today and humans only breeding humans,
I don't understand the question.
Naturalism is a philosophy, yes. It embraces science to explain the natural world, yes. How is that faith based?
Faith is a type of belief that is unverifiable, it is belief for its own sake and cannot be corrolated with reality.
Naturalism embraces science because it is rejecting science is unreasonably skeptical and there are no other sets of answers to questions about the universe that stand up to reasonable skepticism
Those defects, over time, change the organism. When you and I both agree that a Chihuahua and a Great Dane both evolved from generally the same "dog" over the last few thousand years, you accept the general premise of evolution.
Today, I could easily say that I have never seen a two Chihuahuas give birth to a Great Dane, nor have I seen two wolves give birth to a toy poodle. However, you understand I am ignoring the time factor and the small changes that build up under what you may call "microevolution."
I drop the "micro" and just call it evolution. You see, we don't disagree all that much.
ThinkerMan said:Heidi said:SyntaxVorlon said:Another iteration of the semantics mistake so often made on this board:
Faith is a type of belief that is unverifiable, it is belief for its own sake and cannot be corrolated with reality.
Naturalism embraces science because it is rejecting science is unreasonably skeptical and there are no other sets of answers to questions about the universe that stand up to reasonable skepticism.
And how is evolution verifiable? Why are apes only breeding apes today and humans only breeding humans, some of whom have defects?Today's reality is backed up by the bible that animals only produce offspring of their own kind. What reality today backs up evolution? :o
(My bolding). Heidi....you have precisely undermined your own post.
You call them defects, but they are actually referred to as mutations...some "bad", some "good" and most neutral.
Those defects, over time, change the organism. When you and I both agree that a Chihuahua and a Great Dane both evolved from generally the same "dog" over the last few thousand years, you accept the general premise of evolution.
Today, I could easily say that I have never seen a two Chihuahuas give birth to a Great Dane, nor have I seen two wolves give birth to a toy poodle. However, you understand I am ignoring the time factor and the small changes that build up under what you may call "microevolution."
I drop the "micro" and just call it evolution. You see, we don't disagree all that much.
Why are apes only breeding apes today and humans only breeding humans,
Why can donkeys and horses breed to create non-donkeys and non-horses (mules)? Your "only" premise fails there.
However, this again is the oft-repeated strawman creationists use to debase evolution. This is a claim that evolution does not make, and if you choose to engage in this debate, you should at least properly articulate the correct theory.
Hello? Where is there any evidence that all the breeds of dogs came from 2 dogs?
If the human being comes from an ape, then why don't apes & humans mate today and produce offspring?
You ignore the fact that no cell can spontaneoulsy produce superior characteristics by itself. The combination of egg & sperm can only produce the characteristics included in the egg & sperm and nothing more. But if either the egg or sperm or both are damged, then they will produce damaged offspring, not superior offspring. And this is where the theory of evolution is seriously flawed, other than the obvious fact that apes have only bred apes & humans have only bred humans during recorded history, which is lost on men who consider themselves intelligent, but easily understood by children.
Sorry, but human reason is by definition, fallible. Therefore your arguments are fallible. But the Holy Spirit is infallible which is why the authors of the bible knew the earth was round thousands of years before people who relied on human reasoning did.
Again, the theory that dogs evolved from wolves or that wolves evolved from dogs comes from the imagination and only the imagination.
Heidi said:Ah, sorry, but any creationist believes we were created by God the way the bible says we were, "each to his own kind" or he is not a creationist. There is a reason that dogs cannot produce birds or apes cannot produce human beings. It is also why apes produce nothing but apes today, dogs, produce nothing but dogs, wolves, wolves, birds, birds.
The reason they produce their own kind is that this is the way it is. Mammals are very similar in how their systems work and reptiles don't work like mammals. To say that God made each according to their own kind by observing that dogs don't produce birds etc is simplistic observation that any child can come up with.
But men won't leave that alone because they think they know better than God. So they say; "Hey, maybe men came from primates! yeah, I can invent this new theory & I'll be famous!"
Sorry to tell you this but man did not come from primates he is a primate. He is a species unto himself.
So they construct an elaborate scenario based on "what if's" with no evidence in reality, only speculation. This is also what sci-fi writers do. They invent their own jargon like "macro" or "micro" evolution just like sci-fi writers do, when this is all nothing but theory.
Sorry but their is a whole lot of evidence including not only what we see but also in the genetic make up of DNA etc. You can put your head in the sand all you want but that won't change what is there.
All man has to do is watch the reproductive process over the thousands of years that man has been on earth and see how species breed their own kind. That's called reality, not the imagination. It's really quite simple.
What is simple is that man can as you say watch over the thoudands of years the fossil evidence and how it has changed the species. The horse is an excellent study of how evolution has changed this animal hoofs.
There was an article in the newspaper last year about scientists who found bones in the Gobi desert they said dated back millions of years ago. Then when an old man read about their findings, he walked into the police station and told them he thought they were the bones of his uncle who had wandered into the desert years earlier. So they did DNA testing and sure enough, they were the bones of his uncle.
Isn't science wonderful? In the end if its not true science will admit it and find the truth.
Archeologists can make their findings into anything they want them to be and dupe the public beauce the have letters after their names. But it's usually only years later that their "discoveries" are found to have serious flaws. ;-)
Sorry but archeologists cannot make their finding into anything they want because sooner or later if the findings are not true they will be found out.Those that look for answers and evidence are a competitive lot and they are always looking for fame and glory by pointing out errors and mistakes which is good because it forces them to find the truth. Unlike theists who have the answers and are forever looking for the evidence. However the best they can do is twist, slant and outright deny what is there and blame satan etc for the what the evidence testifies too. Theists have a vested interest in denying evolution because once it is accepted the whole house of cards comes crashing down as far as beleifs are concerned.
Exactly, Man is a species unto himself. Man has been the same since the beginning of recorded history.
ThinkerMan said:Exactly, Man is a species unto himself. Man has been the same since the beginning of recorded history.
According to your beliefs, not so.
Adam and Eve could not have been black AND white, had asian AND round eyes, had curly AND straight hair, had blond AND blue eyes.
Since the Tower of Babel, as you believe, all this different races evolved, correct? So you can't say Man was always the same.
And that supposedly happened only 5,000 years ago. If you believe all that could happen that fast, why don't you believe more could happen in a few million?
Heidi said:Exactly, Man is a species unto himself. Man has been the same since the beginning of recorded history.
So close yet you missed the mark. Man has evolved from as ape like creature as a separate species.
The notion that before there were any witnesses, he looked like a primate or an ape is simply from the imagination and nothing else.
Sorry but the evidence uncovered points to a different explanation.
It is a very simplistic and obvious observation that animals reproduce their own kind...that is, to all but evolutionists. Since it isn't obvious to them, they say that man came from an ape-like being that conveniently died out. It's called the "missing link", and there's a reason why it's still missing.
Animals do reproduce after their own kind . However over time they change. Only those that refuse to accept the evidence of evolution deny the reality. All you have to do is look at different strains of influenza and how they change every year to confirm that evolution takes place.
The genetic make-up of which animal? Apes again are still found in jungles or zoos where man put them and men are found in society. The differences in genetic make-up between the 2 is obvious to anyone with eyes.
Of course there are apes still found. However this ape (man] has reached a higher plateau than the others. There are apes, gorillas, monkeys, orangatangs and man. THey all belong to the same family and share many traits physically and biologically and genetically.You may not like that but that is the way it is.
There are as many different combinations of horse genes as there are differences between human genes. Some people have blue eyes, some brown. Some are taller, some are shorter. But a horse has never changed into a dog or a man and neither has a man ever changed into another animal. So what is your point? :o
No one ever said that another animal changed into another. WHat you fail to understand is that man is man. He evolved as a species unto himself as he is today.
And how will science find the truth through a fallible mind? :o That by definition, is an oxymoron because the truth is infallible, my friend.
If the truth were infallable why isn't it so obvious. How was it that before evolution just about every Christian accepted the biblical storiess as true. What was it that changed that ? Could it be the evidence and logic of what could be see rather than accepting the stories of unknown authors with fantastic claims missing evidence?
And that's why scientists change their minds every generation because what they once thought was not true is no longer true.
For the most part scientists do not change their minds every generation and where ever you heard this was not accurate. They may build upon what was known and tweak some process or understanding but for the most part your statement is patently wrong.
So which science do you believe? Today's science, or tomorrow's science that corrects today's science?
Its a bogus claim and all you have to do is take a science book from 20 years ago and compare it to today and you will see that if anything the majority of what is taught is built on the knowledge of yesterday.
Then when tomorrow comes, which science will you believe then? Tomorrow's science or the science that corrects tomorrow's science? Sorry, but putting your faith in sience is putting your faith in shifting sand. But the bible is as true today as when it was written.
Sorry but believing without evidence is called gullible where I come from.
And when have Christ's words come crashing down? Which words of his have ever been proven a lie? :-?
UH? When he said some standing here would not taste death before he returns.
Adam & Eve were still human beings, unless you don't think Blacks or Asians are human beings.
Again, are you saying people with different skin or hair color aren't human beings? If so, then there's no point in debating anything with you.
Because there's no evidence in recorded history that men were ever anything other than human beings.
Some of the greatest thinkers of all time lived thousands of years ago. So why would you think they were any less fit then?
Why would you also think they were inferior or resembeled an ape in any way?