[_ Old Earth _] Evolutionist's debating tactics

[Heidi]

And how can you determine that without the imagination?

Its called research. You can compare brains, you can compare skulls, you can see from brain damage which parts of the brain effect what parts of us physically. We know malformed brain will have severe learning problems. You can learn alot from a fossilised skull, and its based on the evidence of years of study.

[quote:af1ec]But the problem is, that evolutionists don't look for things that would verify the bible at all! In fact, they avoid it like the plague.

Why would you try to study a book you don't believe in? If you believe its a book of myths then basing research on it would be a waste of time. Its not specifically that science ignores the Bible, they ignore all religions books, all ancient myths and the hundreds of different creation stories. Do you take the hindu holy books into account in your studies? Do you read the Quran to find about history? Do you study L Ron Hubbards books on creation?
If you pick one over the others you automatically give yourself a bias. You are no longer looking at the evidence and basing your conclusions on it, but start with the conclusion and try to find the evidence that proves you right. This is the wrong way around.

This is born out by the fact that just recently, scientists have finally admitted that the human race came from one man.

Can you please quote a source for this? I've not yet heard anyone who has stated this.

But of course, they don't look at the juncture of the Tigris and Euphrates where the bible says man was formed because that would prove the bible right.

Scientists have studied the genetic makeup of the people of Iraq, and of the people from Africa. Their conclusions were that humans travelled from Africa to the east colonising as they went. So yes this has all been looked into and the agreement was scientifically reached.[/quote:af1ec]

And that's the point. Scientists are deciding that they know better than people who lived during biblical times what happened back then. And that is the epitome of arrogance. Scientists will be as fooled as an arrogant attorney who who underestimates his opponent, only more so, because the opponent of evolutionists is God. Therefore, the consequences will be more severe.

And your last statement is a lie. Scientists know only infintessimal amounts of information about the human body and the world which is why they change their minds in every generation! They also have not looked in Iraq for the bones of the oldest man which the bible says is the birthplace of man. So if they're interested in the truth, then why not look there? :o What's it going to hurt? It's simple. It's called fear that they will be wrong and look foolish, period. :

 

[Frost Giant]

Because nobody wants to waste money looking in an area for the bones of someone described in a religious text.

 

[Quadeshet]

Man, Heidi, you could be rich!

Since you know so much more about where to look for the 'oldest man', why don't you fund a research expedition... Go and dig him up! You'd have solid proof that there were people living in Iraq 6000 years ago!

But what if you find what other archaeologists have... a record of occupation dating back 130,000 years at places such as Skhul, Kafzeh and Shanidar?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ertal.html

We do know better than people in biblical times about pretty much everything. Would you like to live back then? No modern medical care, no refrigeration, weave your own clothing, make your own oil, wine, bread, total subjugation to your male relatives, ten children and two of them survive... fun times!

 

[Heidi]

Man, Heidi, you could be rich!

Since you know so much more about where to look for the 'oldest man', why don't you fund a research expedition... Go and dig him up! You'd have solid proof that there were people living in Iraq 6000 years ago!

But what if you find what other archaeologists have... a record of occupation dating back 130,000 years at places such as Skhul, Kafzeh and Shanidar?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ertal.html

We do know better than people in biblical times about pretty much everything. Would you like to live back then? No modern medical care, no refrigeration, weave your own clothing, make your own oil, wine, bread, total subjugation to your male relatives, ten children and two of them survive... fun times!

I don't need to dig him up. The bible tells us right where he is. But scientists are under the delusion that if they can't see something, that means it doesn't exist. They therefore have no choice but to spend their lives looking for bones to verify the past. Christians already know that the past existed. But if scientists looked in the right place for the bones of early man, they would not only be rich, but right too. Unfortunately, the way they're going about it right now, their theories will only last as long as their money.

 

[Grengor]

I don't need to dig him up. The bible tells us right where he is. But scientists are under the delusion that if they can't see something, that means it doesn't exist.

Wrong. Ever heard of an electron?

They therefore have no choice but to spend their lives looking for bones to verify the past. Christians already know that the past existed. But if scientists looked in the right place for the bones of early man, they would not only be rich, but right too. Unfortunately, the way they're going about it right now, their theories will only last as long as their money.

What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Heidi]

I don't need to dig him up. The bible tells us right where he is. But scientists are under the delusion that if they can't see something, that means it doesn't exist.

Wrong. Ever heard of an electron?

They therefore have no choice but to spend their lives looking for bones to verify the past. Christians already know that the past existed. But if scientists looked in the right place for the bones of early man, they would not only be rich, but right too. Unfortunately, the way they're going about it right now, their theories will only last as long as their money.

What the heck are you talking about?

Scientists had no clue that germs, bacteria, electrons, protons, atoms, etc. existed until they invented the electron microscope. That's why they didn't wash their hands before surgery, or find medicines to cure bacteria until the 20th century. They also delcared that the smallest particle was an atom...that is, until they could see the quark which is now considered the smallest particle. But I predict that the universe is a small as it is big because for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Scientists also have zero clue what eternity is. They don't understand that God is, always was, and always will be. And because of that, they actually think they can solve the mysteries of the universe and figure out the beginning of all things. But they can't because something had to get the ball rolling in the first place. Something had to form cells, quarks, atoms, molecules, etc.

So the only rational explanation is God. There is no other explanation for cell design, cause-effect, natural laws, the billions of cells that make up every animal and especially the human being. Therefore, there will always be mysteries and contradictory explanations by scientists because scientists are not omniscient. They will therefore, always miss something that they overlooked. Sorry, but trying to play God only makes one look foolish. It never works. As jesus said; "He who exalts himself will be humbled." But scientists say, "oh no, we won't be humbled. We know what the answers are" that is, until in future years they change them into something else which happens every generation.

 

[Frost Giant]

Once again, Heidi manages to get everything wrong. Not even Hovind himself has such a bad track record.

 

[Heidi]

Once again, Heidi manages to get everything wrong. Not even Hovind himself has such a bad track record.

It's easy to claim that someone is wrong without offering an explanation or proof. So far, you haven't done either. :

 

[Frost Giant]

B-u-r-d-e-n o-f p-r-o-o-f.

 

[Heidi]

B-u-r-d-e-n o-f p-r-o-o-f.

As I already posted in reply to you in another thread, a man is considered innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, the burden of proof is always on the accuser, my friend. Jesus has already provided evidence of his existence. It's up to you to provide evidence that he is lying or it is simply slander.

If an author writes a book and quotes someone else's words, it called libel if people accuse the one who is quoted of lying without evidence that he is lying. Accusing people of lying when you have no proof of it is nothing but malicious slander...and of one who suffered and died for you, no less. Only people without a conscience would do that to someone who gave up his life for them.

 

[armed2010]

B-u-r-d-e-n o-f p-r-o-o-f.

As I already posted in reply to you in another thread, a man is considered innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, the burden of proof is always on the accuser, my friend. Jesus has already provided evidence of his existence. It's up to you to provide evidence that he is lying or it is simply slander.

If an author writes a book and quotes someone else's words, it called libel if people accuse the one who is quoted of lying without evidence that he is lying. Accusing people of lying when you have no proof of it is nothing but malicious slander...and of one who suffered and died for you, no less. Only people without a conscience would do that to someone who gave up his life for them.

Heidi, the Bible alone is not enough proof for the supposedly amazing supernatural powers that Jesus had. There are many writings from the past that include real places in them, but have fable like supernatural events occuring in them. We know that the City of Troy existed, and that a Trojan War may have actually happend, but these things alone do not prove that Odyssius sailed around various Islands, battled a cyclops, and was tormented by Poseidon.

 

[Frost Giant]

long post with smilies and stuff

This isn't a trial. Burden of proof is on you. You haven't provided any evidence that Jesus was anything more than just a man. That some biblical places actually exist isn't evidence. That some events took place isn't evidence. I want actually verifiable evidence. Like corroboration. If Jesus really did all the things claimed in the Bible, then why don't we find it written anywhere else?

 

[Heidi]

long post with smilies and stuff

This isn't a trial. Burden of proof is on you. You haven't provided any evidence that Jesus was anything more than just a man. That some biblical places actually exist isn't evidence. That some events took place isn't evidence. I want actually verifiable evidence. Like corroboration. If Jesus really did all the things claimed in the Bible, then why don't we find it written anywhere else?

It is apparent that you cannot see reality. Since you don't agree with the court systems, nor do you understand the elementary principle that when people claim they are telling the truth, then you cannot accuse them of lying without proof or it's called slander. And there is a reason it's a crime; it's a crime because there is no substance behind it except to malign people. The motive for accusing people of lying isn't in good faith because they have no reason to do it except to slander someone's name. This is also called; "bearing false witness". Therefore, people who slander others without proof are not interested in evidnece at all or they wouldn't have slandered the person to begin with unles they had evidence. You therefore will reject any evidence given to you even to the point of saying all the documents of Christ's life come from liars. This is not only unsubstantiated, but the degree of the absudity is mind-boggling. And you think people should listen to you? :o On what basis? :o This proves nothing except your inability to see reality and gives you zero credibility for anything you say. So since you don't want evidence, nor do you care if you have any credibility, this makes it impossible for people like you to see the truth about anything. Therefore, it's a waste of time trying to converse with someone whi lives in a fantasy world.

 

[Frost Giant]

If Jesus did all the things claimed in the Bible, then why isn't it mentioned anywhere else?

 

[pasta911]

If Jesus did all the things claimed in the Bible, then why isn't it mentioned anywhere else?

 

[MrVersatile48]

Anyone else recall the '60s, when evo-loopies used words like..

'maybe..might have..we think..probably'..??

Atheistic brainwashing is now @ the sinister proportions of Revelation 13, 2 Thessalonians 2 & Daniel 7 - see http://www.BibleGateway.org

Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

Revelation 13

1And the dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea.

The Beast out of the Sea

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beastâ€â€all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

9He who has an ear, let him hear.

10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

The Beast out of the Earth

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.

12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.

13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,

17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Footnotes:

Revelation 13:1 Some late manuscripts And I
Revelation 13:8 Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain
Revelation 13:10 Some manuscripts anyone kills

 

[MrVersatile48]

2 Thessalonians 2

The Man of Lawlessness

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Stand Firm

13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

Footnotes:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin
2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts because God chose you as his firstfruits
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

 

[MrVersatile48]

Daniel 7

Daniel's Dream of Four Beasts

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.

2 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.

3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.

5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!'

6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

7 "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beastâ€â€terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8 "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.

12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The Interpretation of the Dream

15 "I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me.

16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this.
"So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things:

17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.

18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it foreverâ€â€yes, for ever and ever.'

19 "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze clawsâ€â€the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left.

20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fellâ€â€the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

23 "He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.

24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. [a]

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself."

Footnotes:

Daniel 7:25 Or for a year, two years and half a year

 

[MrVersatile48]

http://www.discovery.org/csc/essentialReadings.php 8-)