Ex-witches and Ex-witch Ministries

[sparrow]

So then you would agree that anyone who claims to have been "told by God" something that is untrue is a "false prophet" then?

actually, I tend to think they were just mistaken.

Then that means that you DON'T accept the Biblical definition of what a false prophet is... because Scripture clearly talks about (in Deut 18:20-22) If a someone says, "thus says the Lord," claiming that something will happen, and it does not happen, then that they must be held accountable for that false prophecy...

To say that they were simply "mistaken" is to fly in the face of Scripture and fall back on the same defence as all the Benny hinn's and other false prophets...

not at all J-l,
Kathi never claimed to be a prophet, that was your claim to create a
convienient strawman argument to beat on around the web.

Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets†will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 25:24-25; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18)...

Do you really wish to side with them???

which is rather why I oppose you when you choose to start bearing
false witness again.

[quote:c4315][quote:c4315]
If so... then since Kathi claims that she was "told by God" AFTER I was booted from exWitch Ministries that i would one day "be in leadership" at exWitch that she is a flase prophet...

Is that what you are saying Mark?

what I am saying, is that YOU continued to throw things away with
both hands. And subsequently seem to have chosen to disqualify yourself
for ministry with that behaviour.

*shrugs*

That's what free-will is all about I reckon, God didn't force you to behave.
like everyone else, it has to be a choice that is made freely.[/quote:c4315]

If you mean by "behaving like everyone else" accepting a false prophet as the head of a ministry i am GLAD I did not "behave like everyone else"... It would dishonour Christ who shed his precious blood to save me...
[/quote:c4315]
you sure didn't behave like the rest.. they didn't use foul language and
throw hissy fits.

[quote:c4315][quote:c4315]
It was hard enough getting a straight answer out of the organ grinder ...but it is like pulling teeth getting a straight answer out of her monkey... :roll:

And you are STILL to give a Yes or No answer to my question about whether or not you are willing to discuss why SPECIFIC groups, ministries and/or forums are not recommended by exWitch USA...

quite the contrary, I have answered your question as you seem to be
discussing YOUR ministries.
In which case I still expect it has a lot to do with your behaviour.
After all, you chose to post to her that you had decided to use death magik
against her.
*shrugs*[/quote:c4315]

I did many things in a back-slidden state... but I am NOT backslidden now... and so that "defence" has no basis any more... you are grasping at straws trying to defend someone you know to be a false prophet... that BIBLICALLy fits the bill of a false prophet... and yet you stand by her...
[/quote:c4315]
quite the contrary, not only am I not grasping at straws, I have no problem
understanding why someone would not choose to recommend, as a resource,
one who chose to use death magik against them, refused to stop using foul language,
refused to actually discuss the scriptural basis for any disagreement... etc.

[quote:c4315][quote:c4315]
My pastor certainly seems to be right when he says you use cult-like evasion and manipulation techniques...

He is free to believe whatever he wishes.[/quote:c4315]

Well you've certainly provided ample evidence tonight that he was right...

Thanx Mark that was all I was after...[/quote:c4315]
And you have proven that you really haven't changed.

which is truly saddening to me.

ttyl,
mark

 

[sparrow]

And all this has what to do with Lord of the Rings???

nothing,

point noted and understood, with my apologies.

mark

 

[bornagainpagan]

Kathi never claimed to be a prophet, that was your claim to create a convienient strawman argument to beat on around the web.

While Kathi may not have said "I am a prophet" in as many words she HAS claimed to be an "Apostle"... She also claimed to have had a special relevation from God that I will one day be "in leadership" at exWitch Ministries (USA) at some point in the future...

I draw your attention back to SCRIPTURE Mark... Something you seem keen to avoid or ignore... Deut 18:22... If someone says "thus says the Lord," claiming that something will happen, and it does not happen, then that they must be held accountable for that false prophecy...

That is the Word of God Mark...

which is rather why I oppose you when you choose to start bearing false witness again.

...But I am not... I will happily make public the emails from Kathi in question if you like... I think a LOT of ppl would be interested in seeing them actually...

[quote:f4d25]If you mean by "behaving like everyone else" accepting a false prophet as the head of a ministry i am GLAD I did not "behave like everyone else"... It would dishonour Christ who shed his precious blood to save me...

you sure didn't behave like the rest.. they didn't use foul language and
throw hissy fits.[/quote:f4d25]

Kathi sure did... Again... Shall I make the emails from her public???

[quote:f4d25]I did many things in a back-slidden state... but I am NOT backslidden now... and so that "defence" has no basis any more... you are grasping at straws trying to defend someone you know to be a false prophet... that BIBLICALLy fits the bill of a false prophet... and yet you stand by her...

quite the contrary, not only am I not grasping at straws, I have no problem
understanding why someone would not choose to recommend, as a resource,
one who chose to use death magik against them, refused to stop using foul language,
refused to actually discuss the scriptural basis for any disagreement... etc.[/quote:f4d25]

I have CONTINUALLY sought the Biblical basis for much that went on at exWitch and met with either stoney silence or foul language from Kathi...

Yes I backslid in my anger at her response... but so have others that are now moderators and/or in other leadership roles at ministries that you are involved in - as you well know... So don't evade the issue with those tactics...

And what has that to do with recommending an as yet un-named ministry???

I can readily understand why exWitch Australia is not recommended by exWitch Ministries (USA) because the truth is exposed there ...

By way of example: http://exwitchaustralia.com/index001a.html (Note the entry dated Sept 11, 2005)

I was going to ask about other ministries that DO maintain links to exWitch Ministries (USA) on their sites that I do NOT head... one (there are more) being a Forum that you are a member of in fact...

But you continue to evade and ignore my questions regarding this...

[quote:f4d25] [quote:f4d25][quote:f4d25]
My pastor certainly seems to be right when he says you use cult-like evasion and manipulation techniques...

He is free to believe whatever he wishes.[/quote:f4d25]

Well you've certainly provided ample evidence tonight that he was right...

Thanx Mark that was all I was after...[/quote:f4d25]
And you have proven that you really haven't changed. [/quote:f4d25]

If by which you mean I still seek to do what is right before God and "test EVERYTHING, and hold onto the good."(I Thessalonians 5:21) and to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 3) then I thank you... :D

which is truly saddening to me.

I am sure it is Mark... I am sure it is...

 

[bornagainpagan]

And all this has what to do with Lord of the Rings???

Not a lot ...

But a large portion of the thread concerned the questioning of the 'credentials' and reliability of certain ministries, websites, etc that put forward quite strong views concerning the LOTR...

I merely wished to draw attention to the fact that some other ministries that seem to have set themselves up as having some sort of special insight or authority about such matters deserve to be put under the same scrutiny as well...

Perhaps the thread should be split by the moderators here...

That is their decision...

 

[sparrow]

And all this has what to do with Lord of the Rings???

*snip*

I merely wished to draw attention to the fact that some other ministries that seem to have set themselves up as having some sort of special insight or authority about such matters deserve to be put under the same scrutiny as well...

Perhaps the thread should be split by the moderators here...

That is their decision...

Highly doubtful given your behaviour over the past months.
I find it to be much more likely that you pulled forward that ancient
post merely to take some more shots at Kathi.

In any case, to sort things out a little better, including the things you have
chosen to mislead people on, lets try this.

First, I do not doubt that Kathi finally snapped at you considering the meat grinder
that you intentionally put her through.

Secondly, You did not leave ExWitch due to differing interpetations of scripture.

Which you were not willing to discuss when I offered to sort it out with you.

That was the first hissy fit you threw.
when you calmed down, you apologized and even talked your way back
onto the forum and back into a staff position.

You left EW the second time because you couldn't take 'yes' for an answer.
all you had to do was reword your anti-america post in a less crude manner
and put it back out into the thread.
Instead, you chose to have a royal coniption. intent on dragging Kathi through
the wringer. hurting whomever you could, however you could.
including but not limited to:

death magik

blackmailing a staff member

spreading lies about her and EW around the web

posting any private correspondence that could be taken out
of context publically.
(something you are still willing to do it would seem.)

And you know what is truly sad?
They still wanted to reconcile with you.

Had it been up to me you would never have been in a staff position
in the first place. Since you recieved that position you then went on
to prove me right. Then you went out of your way to hurt the very people
who were trying so hard to believe in you and give you more chances.

THAT is just pathetic.


My advice to Kathi, based upon your behaviour. will always be to never
recommend anything as a ministry resource that you are involved in.
As to the rest of the ministries on the web.. she is quite free to recommend
whomever she wishes. That is not up to the likes of you.

The mods can do as they wish with this discussion J-L. but I am basically
finished with it now.

Mark

 

[Scott]

I've split this from the Lord of the Rings thread so you can continue your discussion.

 

[sparrow]

sorry J-L

I shouldn't have posted all that in public.
:

mark

 

[bornagainpagan]

sorry J-L

I shouldn't have posted all that in public.
:

mark

IF you REALLY mean that then why not use the EDIT function on your own post to remove all that ??? ESPECIALLY since most of it is outright false-hood...

But I know you well enuff by now to know that you won't do that...

Well to save time and effort in reply to to queries I have had offlist in regard to this thread...

OK what happenned was there was rebellion in the ranks of moderators over the heavy handedness of two of the other mods there - Dove and Mark - Dove was removing and censoring posts that she considered criticized George Bush in ANY way shape or form and Mark was pushing a form of 'Spiritual Warfare' at new Christians there that basically said "if 'spooky things' happen it MUST be demons and you HAVE to pray thru EVERY room of the house and over EVERY object in order to remove the demons that are hanging around you" - kinda a 'Christianized' version of a Neo-Pagan 'House Cleansing' Ritual (watered down but similiar)...

...and despite queries and protests about these things being done raised in the mods folder by Jules, Caitlin and myself Kathi was point blank refusing to act.... She didn't see a problem....

Jules, Caitlin and I were all at the point of leaving and discussions had begun between us that were centred around leaving exWitch Ministries (USA) entirely and taking the domain exwitch.co.uk (that Jules had registered under Kathi's direction) and exwitch.com.au (which I was in the processes of getting set up - again under Kathi's direction - she had a big idea of exWitch Ministries (USA) going "more international" at the time...) and setting up shop as a seperate ministry....

Cern and Spider were "in" on this too and were prepared to join the "rebel group" and Caitlin had made overtures to Huckleberry about it and it looked like happenning VERY shortly...

THEN I resigned as moderator at exWitch over political censorship at exWitch Ministries.... My resignation was not accepted by Kathi so I changed my siggy to "I have resigned as moderator due to political censorship at exWitch Ministries"

...and as a result I was banned...

Well I went ballistic!!!! I re-registered and signed in using my old magical name and let loose with both barrels on the open forums...

Caitlin, Jules and Cern sent me angry emails saying "we can't leave exWitch now because you blew it by getting angry..."

I got booted again almost immediately....

I went even more ballistic... dug out my old gear from the back shed and basically wished death, destruction and everything nasty I could think of on one and all....

When I finished the spellworking and was packing everything up I turned on the TV and the London train and bus bombings had only just happenned.... right when I was doing the spell.... My first thought was "Cool!.... The energy is out there... I only hoped I was able to tap into THAT (seeing the death, destruction and mayhem coming live on all channels from from London) and direct it where I wanted it..."

I was THAT angry... I re-registered at eW again and let loose at the 'powers that be' and started "dismantling" my website and started laying the groundwork to get a new - and MUCH darker than the old one - Coven up and going...

I remained THAT angry for about a fortnight and a constant stream of emails flowed between me and Kathi with BOTH of us telling the other to unceremoniously "Get ****ed!!!"... Then my pastor came over and sat me down and said to me point blank... "What on earth are you doing? Who do you think you are fooling? This isn't you anymore.... Wake up to yourself..."

It was obviously what I needed to hear and when I needed to hear it because I just stared at him and blinked and said... "Y'know you're right..." and resumed weekly counselling with him and put my website back up and started to get my act together again - I still see him on a weekly basis now...

I just saw red and wanted to shed blood... "You peed on my house - so I will raise your house to the ground" sort of thinking... What result??? I honestly do not know... I heard whispers that Jules and Cern had some marital probs for a time (but dunno if its true or not)... I know Kathi had enormous probs with her son soon after and was in chronic pain for ages... and Mark and Dove - though still listed 'officially' as 'staff' at exWitch 'left the building' for a time as they say - to start their own ministry and forums - (but are back at exWitch Ministries again now)... Was this the result of my magickal workings??? Who knows??? I think it's just as likely not myself...

One thing is sure ... Kathi continues to maintain that "God told her" that I will one day be "in leadership' at exWitch... AND she has refused repeated requests to provide a Scriptural basis for the 'Spiritual Warfare' teachings that led to the original dispute...
...and (as previously stated) threatened legal action over my domain name. - LINK - see entry dated Sept 11, 2005

AND...

...Jules and Caitlin have left exWitch Ministries now to go into other areas of ministry... (although I note that exWitch Ministries (USA) maintains they are still 'staff'... http://www.exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=staff&op=display

...and I with a group of others who have been similarlly disillussioned with the 'powers that be' at exWitch Ministries (USA) have begun our own ministries and forums...

*Phew* Well I think that's about it... I hope that answers ppl's queries....

That's the complete and unedited "Jean-Luc Story" ....

I hope that this helps explain things and look forward to your response Mark...

IF you are telling the truth that you believe you should not have posted the lies about me that you did earlier... Then use the EDIT function to remove them...

As far as I can see to do otherwise is to make yourself into a liar...

Give them enuff rope... :wink:

 

[sparrow]

sorry J-L

I shouldn't have posted all that in public.
:

mark

IF you REALLY mean that then why not use the EDIT function on your own post to remove all that ??? ESPECIALLY since most of it is outright false-hood...

But I know you well enuff by now to know that you won't do that...

Well to save time and effort in reply to to queries I have had offlist in regard to this thread...

OK what happenned was there was rebellion in the ranks of moderators over the heavy handedness of two of the other mods there - Dove and Mark - Dove was removing and censoring posts that she considered criticized George Bush in ANY way shape or form and Mark was pushing a form of 'Spiritual Warfare' at new Christians there that basically said "if 'spooky things' happen it MUST be demons and you HAVE to pray thru EVERY room of the house and over EVERY object in order to remove the demons that are hanging around you" - kinda a 'Christianized' version of a Neo-Pagan 'House Cleansing' Ritual (watered down but similiar)...

...and despite queries and protests about these things being done raised in the mods folder by Jules, Caitlin and myself Kathi was point blank refusing to act.... She didn't see a problem....

Jules, Caitlin and I were all at the point of leaving and discussions had begun between us that were centred around leaving exWitch Ministries (USA) entirely and taking the domain exwitch.co.uk (that Jules had registered under Kathi's direction) and exwitch.com.au (which I was in the processes of getting set up - again under Kathi's direction - she had a big idea of exWitch Ministries (USA) going "more international" at the time...) and setting up shop as a seperate ministry....

Cern and Spider were "in" on this too and were prepared to join the "rebel group" and Caitlin had made overtures to Huckleberry about it and it looked like happenning VERY shortly...

THEN I resigned as moderator at exWitch over political censorship at exWitch Ministries.... My resignation was not accepted by Kathi so I changed my siggy to "I have resigned as moderator due to political censorship at exWitch Ministries"

...and as a result I was banned...

Well I went ballistic!!!! I re-registered and signed in using my old magical name and let loose with both barrels on the open forums...

Caitlin, Jules and Cern sent me angry emails saying "we can't leave exWitch now because you blew it by getting angry..."

I got booted again almost immediately....

I went even more ballistic... dug out my old gear from the back shed and basically wished death, destruction and everything nasty I could think of on one and all....

When I finished the spellworking and was packing everything up I turned on the TV and the London train and bus bombings had only just happenned.... right when I was doing the spell.... My first thought was "Cool!.... The energy is out there... I only hoped I was able to tap into THAT (seeing the death, destruction and mayhem coming live on all channels from from London) and direct it where I wanted it..."

I was THAT angry... I re-registered at eW again and let loose at the 'powers that be' and started "dismantling" my website and started laying the groundwork to get a new - and MUCH darker than the old one - Coven up and going...

I remained THAT angry for about a fortnight and a constant stream of emails flowed between me and Kathi with BOTH of us telling the other to unceremoniously "Get ****ed!!!"... Then my pastor came over and sat me down and said to me point blank... "What on earth are you doing? Who do you think you are fooling? This isn't you anymore.... Wake up to yourself..."

It was obviously what I needed to hear and when I needed to hear it because I just stared at him and blinked and said... "Y'know you're right..." and resumed weekly counselling with him and put my website back up and started to get my act together again - I still see him on a weekly basis now...

I just saw red and wanted to shed blood... "You peed on my house - so I will raise your house to the ground" sort of thinking... What result??? I honestly do not know... I heard whispers that Jules and Cern had some marital probs for a time (but dunno if its true or not)... I know Kathi had enormous probs with her son soon after and was in chronic pain for ages... and Mark and Dove - though still listed 'officially' as 'staff' at exWitch 'left the building' for a time as they say - to start their own ministry and forums - (but are back at exWitch Ministries again now)... Was this the result of my magickal workings??? Who knows??? I think it's just as likely not myself...

One thing is sure ... Kathi continues to maintain that "God told her" that I will one day be "in leadership' at exWitch... AND she has refused repeated requests to provide a Scriptural basis for the 'Spiritual Warfare' teachings that led to the original dispute...
...and (as previously stated) threatened legal action over my domain name. - LINK - see entry dated Sept 11, 2005

AND...

...Jules and Caitlin have left exWitch Ministries now to go into other areas of ministry... (although I note that exWitch Ministries (USA) maintains they are still 'staff'... http://www.exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=staff&op=display

...and I with a group of others who have been similarlly disillussioned with the 'powers that be' at exWitch Ministries (USA) have begun our own ministries and forums...

*Phew* Well I think that's about it... I hope that answers ppl's queries....

That's the complete and unedited "Jean-Luc Story" ....

I hope that this helps explain things and look forward to your response Mark...

IF you are telling the truth that you believe you should not have posted the lies about me that you did earlier... Then use the EDIT function to remove them...

As far as I can see to do otherwise is to make yourself into a liar...

Give them enuff rope... :wink:

Only problem with doing that edit J-L... is that they weren't lies.
I just should probably not have aired them in public as I didn't think
it was fair to you.

However, after seeing your current misrepresentations of events,
I will let them stay. which was not my intention when I came back here this morning.

good bye J-L

Mark

 

[bornagainpagan]

Yes... as I expected...

Don't let the fact that you yourself just said...

I just should probably not have aired them in public as I didn't think it was fair to you.

...interfere with your temper tantrum...

I know full well from our previous encounters that would be too much to ask or expect of you...

'Fairness' hardly appears to be your strong suit...

As before I shall continue in prayer for you and others in leadership at exWitch Ministries USA... that God will soften their hard hearts and bring them (and you) to repentence...

But I won't say 'Goodbye' Mark...

...I bid you adieu... 8-)

 

[bornagainpagan]

...nothing more to say Mark?

...but enuff of dealing with the monkey.... nothing from your keeper (Kathi Sharpe) the organ grinder and head "false prophet" either???

How very disappointing... :

 

[Cern]

Jules, Caitlin and I were all at the point of leaving and discussions had begun between us that were centred around leaving exWitch Ministries (USA) entirely and taking the domain exwitch.co.uk (that Jules had registered under Kathi's direction) and exwitch.com.au (which I was in the processes of getting set up - again under Kathi's direction - she had a big idea of exWitch Ministries (USA) going "more international" at the time...) and setting up shop as a seperate ministry....

Cern and Spider were "in" on this too and were prepared to join the "rebel group" and Caitlin had made overtures to Huckleberry about it and it looked like happenning VERY shortly...

Not exactly correct. I don't recall the situation as being quite so reactionary. But the development of exwitch uk, and the possibility of it having some independence fro Exwitch USA was discussed. The main reasoning behind this was the difference between UK Pagans and US Pagans. Discussions centred around the different approach and a different understanding more than anything else.

Well I went ballistic!!!! I re-registered and signed in using my old magical name and let loose with both barrels on the open forums...

Caitlin, Jules and Cern sent me angry emails saying "we can't leave exWitch now because you blew it by getting angry..."

I got booted again almost immediately....

Yep, that is kinda what happened. Well, I don't quite recall the bit about not being able to leave exwitch. I'm sure I've got my copies of the emails somewhere. I'll dig them out and have a look at some point. For now, agreeing to differ is probably the best course of action.

I went even more ballistic... dug out my old gear from the back shed and basically wished death, destruction and everything nasty I could think of on one and all....

When I finished the spellworking and was packing everything up I turned on the TV and the London train and bus bombings had only just happenned.... right when I was doing the spell.... My first thought was "Cool!.... The energy is out there... I only hoped I was able to tap into THAT (seeing the death, destruction and mayhem coming live on all channels from from London) and direct it where I wanted it..."

This was where people involved started to really worry for you. There was also the fact that there hasn't been a public apology for comments made at the time. For those of us living in London there was a degree of hurt felt by the words you placed on the internet.

I was THAT angry... I re-registered at eW again and let loose at the 'powers that be' and started "dismantling" my website and started laying the groundwork to get a new - and MUCH darker than the old one - Coven up and going...

As I'm sure you now understand, this re-registering again and again came across as a refusal to accept that your comments (given your attitude at the time) were not welcome.

I remained THAT angry for about a fortnight and a constant stream of emails flowed between me and Kathi with BOTH of us telling the other to unceremoniously "Get ****ed!!!"...

Sad that human failings can lead to good people (both of you!) falling so low. I've not seen the messages you say Kathi sent. But I know how humans can fall from their normal standards. So I won't question the possibility.

Then my pastor came over and sat me down and said to me point blank... "What on earth are you doing? Who do you think you are fooling? This isn't you anymore.... Wake up to yourself..."

It was obviously what I needed to hear and when I needed to hear it because I just stared at him and blinked and said... "Y'know you're right..." and resumed weekly counselling with him and put my website back up and started to get my act together again - I still see him on a weekly basis now...

There may have been some contact with your Pastor from EW people. Had you considered that?

I heard whispers that Jules and Cern had some marital probs for a time (but dunno if its true or not)...

Unless you are refering to the time when Jules first converted (long before you knew either of us existed) then you would be incorrect. We're doing just fine.

I know Kathi had enormous probs with her son soon after and was in chronic pain for ages...

That might be because members of her family have a life long disease that will do that for them from time to time. It had been going on log before you left your Pagan past, and will go on for the rest of his life I shouldn't wonder. Still, perhaps that might be something the good Christian folk here would like to pray about- something along the lines of a cuer being found or some divine intervention even.

Mark and Dove - though still listed 'officially' as 'staff' at exWitch 'left the building' for a time as they say - to start their own ministry and forums - (but are back at exWitch Ministries again now)...

Quite true, although their ministry is also going strong.

Was this the result of my magickal workings??? Who knows??? I think it's just as likely not myself...

Nothing to do with your workings. You can rest easily on that front.

Kathi continues to maintain that "God told her" that I will one day be "in leadership' at exWitch...

Perhaps she really felt she had. From a Christian perspective I think there is something about the arch deceiver being particularly good at his work. If that is what you believe then perhaps a better course of action would be to pray that God clarifies the issue for her. That doesn't mean she should feel the need to report on that one however.

AND she has refused repeated requests to provide a Scriptural basis for the 'Spiritual Warfare' teachings that led to the original dispute...

Hmmm, you know I've trawled and trawled through the site and nothing on the public side of the site seems to be unsupported.

...and (as previously stated) threatened legal action over my domain name. - LINK - see entry dated Sept 11, 2005

Over 6 months ago..... has it been repeated since? If not, then I think you can put that down to another human failing.

AND...

...Jules and Caitlin have left exWitch Ministries now to go into other areas of ministry... (although I note that exWitch Ministries (USA) maintains they are still 'staff'... http://www.exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=staff&op=display

That is true. In the case of both it is directly due to work commitments. Caitlin, because she has a paid position as a part of her church, and is run off her feet (incidentally, Caitlin suggests it is not particularly wise for people to speak on her behalf- I've got permission). Jules because she has an incredibly increased workload at her place of employment.

.

..and I with a group of others who have been similarlly disillussioned with the 'powers that be' at exWitch Ministries (USA) have begun our own ministries and forums...

I note you've handed in your founding member and moderator status there. But indeed your account of that is true.

Not sure why this is all STILL going on. Perhaps you are perceiving a bigger danger than actually exists because of the way you, personally handled an unpleasant episode. If you have a differing opinion on Spiritual warfare issues, then perhaps focusing on presenting that opinion, rather than dwelling on a clash over differences that happened half a year ago would be a more productive approach. Sometimes it really is more sensible just to let things go. When the bible speaks of being rejected by those who won't hear the message, it speaks of showing the dust on your shoes or somesuch (can't remember the specific passage, so a paraphrase will have to do). I don't recall it saying anything about dwelling on the experience or bringing it up in as many venues as possible. Maybe it is time you moved on from all this.

BB

Mike

 

[bornagainpagan]

AND...

...Jules and Caitlin have left exWitch Ministries now to go into other areas of ministry... (although I note that exWitch Ministries (USA) maintains they are still 'staff'... http://www.exwitch.org/cms/mod.php?mod=staff&op=display

That is true. In the case of both it is directly due to work commitments. Caitlin, because she has a paid position as a part of her church, and is run off her feet (incidentally, Caitlin suggests it is not particularly wise for people to speak on her behalf- I've got permission). Jules because she has an incredibly increased workload at her place of employment.

And I have a number of emails from Caitlin where she says quit specificly that that Kathi does NOT have her permission to keep her listed as being on staff...

And as you just said jules is no longer on staff... Yest kathi continues to give a FALSE AND MISLEADING impression that they ARE STILL on staff...

I dunno about you Cern but to me that is called bearing false witness... it is lying to bolster one's own position...

and THAT is UNACCEPTABLE behaviour in my opinion...

What do YOU think of it????

[quote:b7db7]..and I with a group of others who have been similarlly disillussioned with the 'powers that be' at exWitch Ministries (USA) have begun our own ministries and forums...

I note you've handed in your founding member and moderator status there. But indeed your account of that is true.

Not sure why this is all STILL going on. Perhaps you are perceiving a bigger danger than actually exists because of the way you, personally handled an unpleasant episode. If you have a differing opinion on Spiritual warfare issues, then perhaps focusing on presenting that opinion, rather than dwelling on a clash over differences that happened half a year ago would be a more productive approach. Sometimes it really is more sensible just to let things go. When the bible speaks of being rejected by those who won't hear the message, it speaks of showing the dust on your shoes or somesuch (can't remember the specific passage, so a paraphrase will have to do). I don't recall it saying anything about dwelling on the experience or bringing it up in as many venues as possible. Maybe it is time you moved on from all this.[/quote:b7db7]

And maybe a false prophet still needs to be exposed...

Sorry Mike I know you mean well but you got that passage you were referring to out of context... that concerns those who refuse to accept the gospel... not those who are false teachers and false prophets...

 

[bornagainpagan]

Then my pastor came over and sat me down and said to me point blank... "What on earth are you doing? Who do you think you are fooling? This isn't you anymore.... Wake up to yourself..."

It was obviously what I needed to hear and when I needed to hear it because I just stared at him and blinked and said... "Y'know you're right..." and resumed weekly counselling with him and put my website back up and started to get my act together again - I still see him on a weekly basis now...

There may have been some contact with your Pastor from EW people. Had you considered that?

Actually my Pastor says he believes that exWitch Ministries has engaged in (and I quote) "cult-like manipulation" in their treatment of me and others ...

 

[Cern]

And I have a number of emails from Caitlin where she says quit specificly that that Kathi does NOT have her permission to keep her listed as being on staff...

And as you just said jules is no longer on staff... Yet kathi continues to give a FALSE AND MISLEADING impression that they ARE STILL on staff...

I dunno about you Cern but to me that is called bearing false witness... it is lying to bolster one's own position...

and THAT is UNACCEPTABLE behaviour in my opinion...

What do YOU think of it????

I think it is in Kathi's nature that she is very reluctant to see people leave without making sure there is a window open for their return. I don't think Kathi is intentionally misleading (and remember I've not only met her but stayed in her house with her family, visited her church and spoken with her Pastor. I know her IRL as well as online). I can't see how keeping Jules and Caitlin listed as admin would be a way to bolster her own position either. Certainly both Jules and Caitlin are worthy of great respect. But then, the same could be said of the new admin staff Kathi has taken on at EW.

And maybe a false prophet still needs to be exposed...

You've said yourself in this very thread that Kathi has not claimed to be a prophet. Perhaps you should reconsider the terms you're using there. We both know how important it is to get ones terms right. Kathi does not engage in prophesy. She may have made a statement that God had told her you would be in a leadership position at EW. She may have believed this was true. But we've already covered the base that perhaps she was mistaken- tricked by old horny. Perhaps she has come to realise that now. I suspect it is a while since she last made such a statement. I can't see a reason why you would need her to retract any statement she may have made in the past if she is no longer making that statement.

you got that passage you were referring to out of context... that concerns those who refuse to accept the gospel.

I thank you for the correction. Each little bit of correction I receive helps me to better understand the Christian faith.

not those who are false teachers and false prophets...

Hmmmm, I checked out 2 Peter 2:1-21 False Teachers and their destruction. To be honest, I really can't see Kathi in such a mold. I also don't see anything in my readings of the New Testament that would suggest that your method of tackling what you perceive to be a false prophet is biblically supported. So even if you were right about Kathi (and exactly what might you do if you discover some way down the line that you've been wrong?) I can't see how your approach could be scripturally supported. Not in the NT anyway, and as the NT informs the OT, I would expect the NT to give some advice.

What I do see is you feeling that you've been sinned against. Whether that is the case or not,

Matthew 18 :15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother
over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

So would you treat a Pagan or a tax collector in a way that would see you posting your feelings about them all over the internet?

Actually my Pastor says he believes that exWitch Ministries has engaged in (and I quote) "cult-like manipulation" in their treatment of me and others ...

That is a tough call to make. I know. I've been involved in the Pagan equivalent of Cult-watch activities in the past (and am sometimes called upon to advise even today. -For those of you reading this... Yes Pagans ARE concerned about cult activity and DO try to minimise its potential impact and influence). Again, I would think carefully about the nature of the words being used. People read what they want to read and sometimes make selective omissions to justify their personal agenda.

At the end of it all you have to make your own decisions on what you want to do about these matters. I know my advice to all concerned would be to walk away from history. Certainly remember it. Hopefully learn from it. Possibly even reflect upon it when you've allowed the dust to settle (and I really don't think you've allowed the dust to settle because you seem to be keeping this going long after the 'fact'). If people heed my advice, Great. If they don't... well I can say I tried to pour oil on troubled waters (How environmentally unfriendly is that? :D)

BB

Mike

 

[Soma-Sight]

Cern,

Do you label yourself "Pagan"....???

Just curious.

 

[Cern]

For simplicities sake, generally yes. It is certainly a label I felt appropriate for myself for a long time. In truth, I feel the label has come to mean less and less over the years. Other labels I might use for myself would include neo-shaman and panentheist. Again, such labels only give a general outline. My understanding of matters of faith is that, even if we follow a broadly traditional path (be that Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, Druid......) we each have our own personal perspective and understanding of that path and any deity form(s) they may contain. These perspectives and understandings are unique because no other person has had exactly the same set of experiences with the exact set of emotional, psychological, physical and chemical reactions to those experiences, and the way we humans process information is generally based on what we have experienced before. It is what makes us such great learners. But it also lends itself to us ultimately being divided on any precise and unanimous understanding of anything.

BB

Mike

 

[Soma-Sight]

Other labels I might use for myself would include neo-shaman and panentheist.

I lived with a Peruvian Shaman 180 miles from Iquitos for a month so I know a little about neo-shamanism.... :wink:

Have you heard of ayahuasca?

There is actually a Church called the Sainto Daime which merges Catholic theology and the brew ayahuasca in rituals.....

I also have experience with the Native American Church.

These perspectives and understandings are unique because no other person has had exactly the same set of experiences with the exact set of emotional, psychological, physical and chemical reactions to those experiences, and the way we humans process information is generally based on what we have experienced before. It is what makes us such great learners. But it also lends itself to us ultimately being divided on any precise and unanimous understanding of anything.

Sounds like you are very tolerant of others beliefs. That is good.

Welcome to the forums!

 

[Cern]

Have you heard of ayahuasca?

Yep. Whilst I recognise that certain indigenous shamanic cultures may make use of psychotropic substances to aid their journeying, I've never been keen on the idea. I prefer to journey with the knowledge that I am not being influenced by any externally supplied chemical.

There is actually a Church called the Sainto Daime which merges Catholic theology and the brew ayahuasca in rituals.....

Is that the one that just gained the legal right to use the stuff in their church service? I remember posting a news story about that to my site fairly recently.

I also have experience with the Native American Church.

Sounds interesting.

Sounds like you are very tolerant of others beliefs. That is good.

It helps in my marriage to Jules (seeing as she is a Christian ex witch). It also helps when I get involved in Interfaith dialogue. How can I request respect for my right to hold and express my beliefs if I'm not prepared to offer the same to others?

Incidentally, I'll be staying with a very dear Pastor friend of mine in Salem Mass. next week. You know, he's such a wonderful guy that even if I wasn't tolerant of others beliefs he would still welcome me. He has also been a welcome guest at our home on a few occassions too.

The following week I'll be visiting Kathi at EW again. Yet again, Kathi is a Christian who is happy to welcome non believers into her home.

So I've an interesting holiday ahead of me.

BB

Mike