Explain the atonement and it's relation to Salvation in up to 15 sentences.

[GodsGrace]

We must have lot's of miscommunication

who said anything about this?




Now this I may be able to address
As I already have, you may want to know why that's important to me. And I explained without going into detail that not everyone comes from your foundation of teaching, Some ideals must be reworked in some who have a bad lense in how they have view scripture. And sense we are at the mercy of our own ideals, then those Ideals must be changed if they don't result in God's will in accord with this scripture:

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work" 2 Timothy

And this is the last clarification I will give on this. Some patience and later you may see where this might lead, for I would like to stay on the topic.

Now if 2 Timothy 3:17 is correct then for many, of cultic ideals, what comes 1st, 2nd, last or even if they act together matters. And in and of "scripture" as in the "all scripture" in 2 Timothy 3:17 if it can clear up misunderstanding or a dirty lense then would not it be as what you wrote, below " Are you saved?"

For how can one know they are saved if they (false or cultic ideal-) believe that no kinds of works are part of Salvation. If the issue that comes on the dirty lense is Justification is all of Salvation then they may never come to know they are saved.
They may have blind faith and say they believe because the Bible says, but may never through working out their salvation see that salvation, being in a state of deliverence and protection is in what we do together with God. So to come to know what they have by relationship. Therefore Justification and Sanctification are both part of Salvation. But if the kick off has never been regeneration then one may never get to:
"equipped for every good work" noted in
2 Timothy.

I'm not absolutely sure Corinth,,,but I THINK I'm following you well and can say that I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I'm a bit confused as to your posting about works for salvation...
and the atonement for salvation.

I believe both are necessary, but one is not like the other.

 

[Corinth77777]

We must have lot's of miscommunication

who said anything about this?




Now this I may be able to address
As I already have, you may want to know why that's important to me. And I explained without going into detail that not everyone comes from your foundation of teaching, Some ideals must be reworked in some who have a bad lense in how they have view scripture. And sense we are at the mercy of our own ideals, then those Ideals must be changed if they don't result in God's will in accord with this scripture:

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work" 2 Timothy

And this is the last clarification I will give on this. Some patience and later you may see where this might lead, for I would like to stay on the topic.

Now if 2 Timothy 3:17 is correct then for many, of cultic ideals, what comes 1st, 2nd, last or even if they act together matters. And in and of "scripture" as in the "all scripture" in 2 Timothy 3:17 if it can clear up misunderstanding or a dirty lense then would not it be as what you wrote, below " Are you saved?"

For how can one know they are saved if they (false or cultic ideal-) believe that no kinds of works are part of Salvation. If the issue that comes on the dirty lense is Justification is all of Salvation then they may never come to know they are saved.
They may have blind faith and say they believe because the Bible says, but may never through working out their salvation see that salvation, being in a state of deliverence and protection is in what we do together with God. So to come to know what they have by relationship.

Therefore Justification and Sanctification are both part of Salvation. But if the kick off has never been regeneration then one may never get to:
"equipped for every good work" noted in
2 Timothy.

1 John 8:29
And the one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do those things that please him.”

What that passages said to me is this...Jesus knew the father was with Him [Salvation,Life]
Why? Because He did what pleased Him.

Abraham was to walk before God Holy and the God would make a Covenant with Him.
Interestingly we who are the seed of Abraham I assume enter into the covenant of Abraham the same way.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John 8:29
And the one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do those things that please him.”

What that passages said to me is this...Jesus knew the father was with Him [Salvation,Life]
Why? Because He did what pleased Him.

Abraham was to walk before God Holy and the God would make a Covenant with Him.
Interestingly we who are the seed of Abraham I assume enter into the covenant of Abraham the same way.

Why are you in the Covenant of Abraham and not the New Covenant?

 

[Corinth77777]

Why are you in the Covenant of Abraham and not the New Covenant?

Good Question
Isn't Abraham the father of all who have faith?

God promised that through his descendants “all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3)

 

[Corinth77777]

Why are you in the Covenant of Abraham and not the New Covenant?

Also Read Galatians 3

 

[atpollard]

But we don't agree on the ordo salutis, do we?

I like your sense of humor. (That is the definitive understatement when discussing "God irresistibly draws whosoever God chooses" vs "Jesus died for all without exception and free will determines whosoever will believe".)

And this is VERY important for those unsaved to understand.
Or they could be waiting around forever instead of REPLYING to the INVITATION.

If YOU (Free Will Arminians) are correct, then the unsaved will be INVITED by the call of PREVENIENT Grace and exercise their Free Will to choose God irrespective of my telling him that God must draw him first. :biggrin

If WE (Doctrine of Grace) are correct, then the unsaved will COME WHEN DRAWN or will not come at all, irrespective of you telling them that God has not really Irresistibly Drawn them and they are in complete control of God's Plan.

 

[Corinth77777]

Why are you in the Covenant of Abraham and not the New Covenant?

You just opened my eyes to see something to research.
Because this is about explaining the atonement in relation to Salvation and many want to know how Jesus death Satified God. But what about His blood?
With this in mind Jesus satified or confirmed by His blood the testiment that God made with Abraham...

 

[atpollard]

Now this I may be able to address
As I already have, you may want to know why that's important to me. And I explained without going into detail that not everyone comes from your foundation of teaching, Some ideals must be reworked in some who have a bad lense in how they have view scripture. And sense we are at the mercy of our own ideals, then those Ideals must be changed if they don't result in God's will in accord with this scripture:

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work" 2 Timothy

And this is the last clarification I will give on this. Some patience and later you may see where this might lead, for I would like to stay on the topic.

Now if 2 Timothy 3:17 is correct then for many, of cultic ideals, what comes 1st, 2nd, last or even if they act together matters. And in and of "scripture" as in the "all scripture" in 2 Timothy 3:17 if it can clear up misunderstanding or a dirty lense then would not it be as what you wrote, below " Are you saved?"

For how can one know they are saved if they (false or cultic ideal-) believe that no kinds of works are part of Salvation. If the issue that comes on the dirty lense is Justification is all of Salvation then they may never come to know they are saved.
They may have blind faith and say they believe because the Bible says, but may never through working out their salvation see that salvation, being in a state of deliverence and protection is in what we do together with God. So to come to know what they have by relationship. Therefore Justification and Sanctification are both part of Salvation. But if the kick off has never been regeneration then one may never get to:
"equipped for every good work" noted in
2 Timothy.

Two points seemed to have been raised, so I will attempt to address them separately:

1. Background and Lenses: Everyone comes to God from a different background. I can only speak from my experience. To avoid any confusion about my "background" or "experience" I offer a very brief synopsis: I was raised ATHEIST, chose EVIL (gangs, crime, drugs, arson) and while making preparations to die in a blaze of glory, God [literally] spoke to me and made me an offer that I could not refuse. So, I followed Him and read the Bible a LOT to try and figure out the rules to this whole "being a Christian" thing. I came up with 4 Biblical TRUTHS ...
   1. People are no darn good.
   2. God doesn't ask permission, God just DOES.
   3. Whatever reason God chooses us, it is NOT because we deserve it.
   4. God finishes what God starts.
2. Every Good Work: FIRST God saves, and THEN we do good works: Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." It is no accident that Ephesians 2:10 comes AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9. We must first be saved by God's gift [He even makes a point that it is NOT OF WORKS] before our works are more than "filthy rags" [Isaiah 64:6]. At the same time, GOOD WORKS must come after our Salvation if our faith and salvation are genuine (James made a big deal about this ... James 2:14, 17, 19-20 "What use is it, my brothers [and sisters,] if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? ... In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, [being] by itself. ... You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?")

 

[Corinth77777]

Two points seemed to have been raised, so I will attempt to address them separately:

1. Background and Lenses: Everyone comes to God from a different background. I can only speak from my experience. To avoid any confusion about my "background" or "experience" I offer a very brief synopsis: I was raised ATHEIST, chose EVIL (gangs, crime, drugs, arson) and while making preparations to die in a blaze of glory, God [literally] spoke to me and made me an offer that I could not refuse. So, I followed Him and read the Bible a LOT to try and figure out the rules to this whole "being a Christian" thing. I came up with 4 Biblical TRUTHS ...
   1. People are no darn good.
   2. God doesn't ask permission, God just DOES.
   3. Whatever reason God chooses us, it is NOT because we deserve it.
   4. God finishes what God starts.
2. Every Good Work: FIRST God saves, and THEN we do good works: Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." It is no accident that Ephesians 2:10 comes AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9. We must first be saved by God's gift [He even makes a point that it is NOT OF WORKS] before our works are more than "filthy rags" [Isaiah 64:6]. At the same time, GOOD WORKS must come after our Salvation if our faith and salvation are genuine (James made a big deal about this ... James 2:14, 17, 19-20 "What use is it, my brothers [and sisters,] if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? ... In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, [being] by itself. ... You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?")

Two points seemed to have been raised, so I will attempt to address them separately:

1. Background and Lenses: Everyone comes to God from a different background. I can only speak from my experience. To avoid any confusion about my "background" or "experience" I offer a very brief synopsis: I was raised ATHEIST, chose EVIL (gangs, crime, drugs, arson) and while making preparations to die in a blaze of glory, God [literally] spoke to me and made me an offer that I could not refuse. So, I followed Him and read the Bible a LOT to try and figure out the rules to this whole "being a Christian" thing. I came up with 4 Biblical TRUTHS ...
   1. People are no darn good.
   2. God doesn't ask permission, God just DOES.
   3. Whatever reason God chooses us, it is NOT because we deserve it.

1. 1. God finishes what God starts.

in Christ

• Every Good Work: FIRST God saves, and THEN we do good works: Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." It is no accident that Ephesians 2:10 comes AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9. We must first be saved by God's gift [He even makes a point that it is NOT OF WORKS]

This is all good and all, But part of the issue with my lenses and many others as Baptist was not the scripture but the pieces that were left out and the fact that salvation was narrowed down to mere Justification. It was these ideals that formed my lense and many others.

Salvation means deliverence, deliverer, delivered...etc

And as a Baptist why is it everytime I saw the term saved, or salvation I equated to heaven when I died?
In Ephesians 2 we find that the diliverence or salvation in particular there was being delivered from death.

But never understood until I changed my lense that I can be delivered from actual sin. And in that sanctification process that is place where I'd receive life from God ....

I'll stop there for now...
 

• before our works are more than "filthy rags" [Isaiah 64:6]. At the same time, GOOD WORKS must come after our Salvation if our faith and salvation are genuine (James made a big deal about this ... James 2:14, 17, 19-20 "What use is it, my brothers [and sisters,] if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? ... In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, [being] by itself. ... You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?"

 

[GodsGrace]

You just opened my eyes to see something to research.
Because this is about explaining the atonement in relation to Salvation and many want to know how Jesus death Satified God. But what about His blood?
With this in mind Jesus satified or confirmed by His blood the testiment that God made with Abraham...

OK
But does this have to do with the atonement in relation to salvation,
or is the idea more in keeping with the Sacrificial System?

Jesus was the last sacrifice.
He shed His blood.
He gave His body.
He took His sins upon Himself just like the sacrificial animals did.

When Jesus died at 3pm on Mt. Golgatha, the temple priests were making the offerings.
Food for thought.

It's also important to remember that the Hebrews were ahead of their time as far as sacrifices.
God might have seemed vengeful in the OT, but at that time, other cultures were sacrificing humans.
So using animals was a great step ahead.

 

[atpollard]

This is all good and all, But part of the issue with my lenses and many others as Baptist was not the scripture but the pieces that were left out and the fact that salvation was narrowed down to mere Justification. It was these ideals that formed my lense and many others.

”Salvation” in Theology discussion, is comprised of three parts (from Scripture):

1. Justification
2. Sanctification
3. Glorification

Those that discuss “salvation” focus on “justification” because it was the work of Christ that makes all the rest possible. Without the Cross, we are trapped in our sins and God is forever unapproachable. Therefore, Justification becomes the engine that drives salvation. If someone is Justified by Christ, the Holy Spirit will empower their Sanctification and they have the promise that their eventual Glorification is assured. There are no pieces “left out” that are essential to being ”saved”. Romans 10:9-10 makes clear what MUST be done. To add REQUIREMENTS to that is to contradict scripture. “Confess with the mouth“ and “believe in the heart” … that is what is REQUIRED.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation means deliverance, deliverer, delivered...etc

And as a Baptist why is it everytime I saw the term saved, or salvation I equated to heaven when I died?
In Ephesians 2 we find that the deliverance or salvation in particular there was being delivered from death.

The Bible speaks of being saved from a lot of things. It is imperative to read each verse in its context to understand the message that is being presented. Death is one thing that we are saved from - both physical death through “eternal life” and our prior state of spiritual death. Punishment is another thing we are saved from. Slavery to sin is yet a third thing that we are saved from. There are also things which we are “saved” to - like the ability to please God, and the good works that God prepared for us to do.

 

[atpollard]

But never understood until I changed my lense that I can be delivered from actual sin.

I am unsure exactly what you are claiming here. If you are claiming that you can live a sinless life, that is not possible in your human flesh and must await your glorification. We are delivered from SLAVERY to sin (we can choose, we are not helplessly addicted to sin). We are delivered from the PENALTY of sin (there is no judgement for those that believe - John 3:18). We are not sinless.

 

[Corinth77777]

”Salvation” in Theology discussion, is comprised of three parts (from Scripture):

1. Justification
2. Sanctification
3. Glorification

Those that discuss “salvation” focus on “justification” because it was the work of Christ that makes all the rest possible. Without the Cross, we are trapped in our sins and God is forever unapproachable. Therefore, Justification becomes the engine that drives salvation. If someone is Justified by Christ, the Holy Spirit will empower their Sanctification and they have the promise that their eventual Glorification is assured. There are no pieces “left out” that are essential to being ”saved”. Romans 10:9-10 makes clear what MUST be done. To add REQUIREMENTS to that is to contradict scripture. “Confess with the mouth“ and “believe in the heart” … that is what is REQUIRED.

Well can't say I agree fully, because as Jesus told Nick, you must be born again.

 

[Corinth77777]

The Bible speaks of being saved from a lot of things. It is imperative to read each verse in its context to understand the message that is being presented. Death is one thing that we are saved from - both physical death through “eternal life” and our prior state of spiritual death. Punishment is another thing we are saved from. Slavery to sin is yet a third thing that we are saved from. There are also things which we are “saved” to - like the ability to please God, and the good works that God prepared for us to do.

Yes and those things one is "saved to" are not without our effort with Christ.

 

[Corinth77777]

I am unsure exactly what you are claiming here. If you are claiming that you can live a sinless life, that is not possible in your human flesh and must await your glorification. We are delivered from SLAVERY to sin (we can choose, we are not helplessly addicted to sin). We are delivered from the PENALTY of sin (there is no judgement for those that believe - John 3:18). We are not sinless.

I will give some scriptures to explain my meaning would hate for you to guess:

"grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Also: 1John 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil

How?

Romans 8:13
If you live in accordance with the flesh, you will die; but if, by the spirit, you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live

 

[GodsGrace]

”Salvation” in Theology discussion, is comprised of three parts (from Scripture):

1. Justification
2. Sanctification
3. Glorification

Those that discuss “salvation” focus on “justification” because it was the work of Christ that makes all the rest possible. Without the Cross, we are trapped in our sins and God is forever unapproachable. Therefore, Justification becomes the engine that drives salvation. If someone is Justified by Christ, the Holy Spirit will empower their Sanctification and they have the promise that their eventual Glorification is assured. There are no pieces “left out” that are essential to being ”saved”. Romans 10:9-10 makes clear what MUST be done. To add REQUIREMENTS to that is to contradict scripture. “Confess with the mouth“ and “believe in the heart” … that is what is REQUIRED.

I believe you stated that AFTER salvation good works are necessary.
Right?

 

[Corinth77777]

I am unsure exactly what you are claiming here. If you are claiming that you can live a sinless life, that is not possible in your human flesh and must await your glorification. We are delivered from SLAVERY to sin (we can choose, we are not helplessly addicted to sin). We are delivered from the PENALTY of sin (there is no judgement for those that believe - John 3:18). We are not sinless.

”Salvation” in Theology discussion, is comprised of three parts (from Scripture):

1. Justification
2. Sanctification
3. Glorification

Those that discuss “salvation” focus on “justification” because it was the work of Christ that makes all the rest possible. Without the Cross, we are trapped in our sins and God is forever unapproachable.

Therefore, Justification becomes the engine that drives salvation.

Who says Forgiveness of sin comes before you are made alive together with Christ?

The kick start then is not Forgiveness, But regeneration

If someone is Justified by Christ, the Holy Spirit will empower their Sanctification and they have the promise that their eventual Glorification is assured.

same comment as above

There are no pieces “left out” that are essential to being ”saved”.

you must be born again/from above is a very essential piece that is left out

Romans 10:9-10 makes clear what MUST be done.

To add REQUIREMENTS to that is to contradict scripture. “Confess with the mouth“ and “believe in the heart” … that is what is REQUIRED.

"Required" sound like a contract, this is based on a Covenant relationship. Sounds like you are saying if you Do this you get that.
See what happens if the Devil does it, yet He is not committed to God.

It did not say if you profess, confession by the way, is in regards to owning up to the condition of your soul.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good Question
Isn't Abraham the father of all who have faith?

God promised that through his descendants “all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3)

You're right.
Abraham is the father of all who have faith.
And God's promise, of course, is also true.

But have you studied the Covenants?
Maybe not.
The Abrahamic Covenant was made with the Hebrews and stated what you have written above.
There have been many Covenants since then.
We Christians belong to the New Covenant.

For instance, the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant is circumcision.
The sign of the New Covenant is Baptism but some theologians believe it's the Eucharist/Communion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Also Read Galatians 3

You mean about having the faith of Abraham?
Yes, I replied to this.

Man has always been saved by faith.