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Ezekiel 38 in Revelation...Is it there??

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Joshleet

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The question of Ezekiel 38 Being in the Book of Revelation is one that has gone mostly unanswered by most of todays Prophecy teachers. An event as important as the Ezekiel 38 war, should be in there somewhere? But is it??? The answer is a LOUD YES!!!!! IT HAS BEEN "HIDING IN PLAIN SIGHT!!!" To understand exactly when the Ezekiel 38 war occurs in Revelation, there is a number of scriptures that need to be tied together.
  • We need to concentrate on certian events that occur at the climax of the Ezekiel 38 war. By doing so, we have established events we can Look for in Revelation, to establish exactly when this event occurs in Revelation.[list:1h9c5xz1]
[/list:u:1h9c5xz1]
[quote:1h9c5xz1]
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Ezekiel 38: 18-20 And it shall come to pass AT THE SAME TIME when Gog shall come againist the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up ini my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, SURELY IN THAT DAY THERE SHALL BE A GREAT SHAKING IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL SO THAT THE FISHES OF THE SEA, AND THE FOWLS OF THE HEAVEN, AND THE BEASTS OF THE FIELD, AND ALL THE CREEPING THINGS THAT CREEP UPON THE EARTH, AND ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE AT MY PRESENCE, AND THE MOUNTAINS SHALL BE THROWN DOWN, AND THE STEEP PLACES SHALL FALL, AND EVERY WALL SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND.[/quote:1h9c5xz1]
  • What other events are occuring at the climax of the Ezekiel 38 war? We witness a great shaking, an earthquake. We also witness all the men on the face of the earth "shaking at the presence of the Lord". So at the time we are witnessing a climactic Battle in Israel we witness these two events. This is occuring when Gog comes against Israel. Where do we see this event being played out in Revelation??
Rev. 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the Sixth seal, and, lo, THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE (event Number One) and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair , AND THE MOON BECAME AS BLOOD (according to Joel 2:30-31, this occurs BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, (since when is a fig tree a "she"? Israel has always been described as the fig tree. Whatever is occuring to the fig tree, the "casting of Her untimely figs" is occuring prematurely. an untimely fig is an unripe one) when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together: and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the KINGS OF THE EARTH, and THE GREAT MEN, and THE RICH MEN, and THE CHIEF CAPTIANS, and THE MIGHTY MEN, and the bondman, and every free man, HID IN THE DENS AND IN THE ROCKS OF THE MOUNTAINS; AND (THEY) SAID TO THE MOUNTAINS AND ROCKS, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the THRONE, AND FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB: FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; AND WHO SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND?"
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What are we witnessing Here in the sixth seal?? Isn't this a group of People who are "shaking in the presence of the Lord"? (Ez. 38:20) what do these people do? They Hide themselves in the Rocks!!! THEY THEN PROCLAIM, THAT IT IS THE DAY OF THE LORD. BUT HOW CAN THIS BE THE DAY OF THE lORD?????? The blood red moon event also occurs at this time!!!! Joel clearly states that this event occurs BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES! The Lord certianly reveals himself in the sixth seal, like he did in Ezekiel 38. However, The Lord is not returning at this time!!!!! There has been alot of confusion when one studies Revelation, because of this event being in the Sixth seal. How can this be the Day of the Lord, if this is only the Sixth seal??? Isn't there multiple events still yet future, prophetically speakinig?? Many have drawn the conclusion events are Concurrent in revelation because of the sixth seal event. But they are not, they are consecutive! The confusing factor has been, we are viewing the same event, through two different sets of eyes, and we are being given two DIFFENT CONCLUSIONS TO THE SAME EVENT. In the ezekiel 38 account, we are viewing these events through the eyes of the Lord, and why the events are happeneing. In the Sixth seal, WE ARE VIEWING THE EVENTS THROUGH THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING THE EVENT, AND THE CONCLUSION THEY ARE DRAWING FROM THE EVENT. HOWEVER, IT IS THE SAME EVENT, This is the Climax of the Ezekiel 38 war in the sixth seal of Revelation. Now, here is the problem, AND IT IS A HUGE ONE!
  • WE KNOW THE EZEKIEL 38 WAR, IS NOT THE FINAL BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON. BUT WHAT WE ARE WITNESSING IN THE SIXTH SEAL, is the great men, the rich men (those who Jesus said would have a very difficult time entering into the kingdom of God) accepting what they are SEEING and what they are EXPERIENCING as the final battle!!! They are accepting Ezekiel 38, when the Lord reveals himself, AND there is a greatquake, and the blood red moon event occurs, as the day of the Lord....But why???
    II Thess 2:11 And for this cause GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE
    Click to expand...
  • Notice where the people in the Sixth seal see the Lord... They state, "hide us from the face of Him that 'sitteth on the throne". Is Jesus returning here? Do we see him on his horse???
The blood red moon event certianly does occur prior to the day of the Lord. However, what we are not told, that it also occurs before the 42 month reign of the false Messiah!!!! The Ezekiel 38 Battle is in Revelation. It is the sixth seal. But what we must understand, is, this event will be accepted as full prophetic fulfillment, before the reign of the false Messiah. There will be the reign of the False messiah, because there will be events that will occur BEFORE HIS REIGN, THAT WILL BE ACCEPTED AS FULL PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT!
  • This is what Jesus was warning us about in matthew 24!!! You will hear of "wars and rumors of Wars" BUT THE END IS NOT YET!! He knew there was going to be events that will occur in the "birthpains", that will be accepted as the end. This is why He also has warned us, "If they shall say unto you, lo, Here is Christ, or there, believe it not!!!
 
Does anyone else out there see this? thios post has been up now for over a month with almost 100 views, yet no replies....Anyone out there????
 
Josh, I'll have to study your theory in more depth once I have time to dig into the scripture, but I will say that my past interpretation of scripture leads me to believe that WOGAM (War of Gog & Magog) is now IMMEDIATELY feasible for the first time in history. Here's my thinking, predicated on my past interpretation of scripture being sound regarding the timing:

1. Ahmadinejad believes with every scintilla of his being that it is his holy destiny to pave the way for the 12th imam. He's proclaimed this openly. He believes the way to do this is to launch a massive conflagration aimed at Christians and Jews. Bottom line? When he gets nukes and a viable delivery platform, he'll use them against Israel, and probably the U.S. We in the U.S. may doubt this, but Israel does not.

2. Given the above, Israel must strike Iran, and soon. From the Israeli perspective, it's a simple matter of survival. They cannot absorb a nuke strike or two and survive as a viable nation.

3. The world has yet again become a cauldron of hatred for Israel. So what happens in the aftermath of their strike against Iran? It gives greedy aggressors (Russia) and Israel-haters the perfect excuse to attack Israel.

4. Scripture suggests that Israel will stand alone in WOGAM, such that there will be no doubt as to who her Rescuer is.

Until the presidential election two days ago, it was hard to imagine that we in the U.S. would abandon Israel. It's no longer hard to imagine at all. Obama is a Pali-sympathizer all the way, which inherently makes him a hater of Israel. HE WILL ABANDON ISRAEL, and she will be alone against the world.

WOGAM is therefore immediately feasible for the first time in history.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this scenario.


WordOMatic
 
Only reading this theory and not studying the scriptures, I can say you did some amazing work. Currently, your theorys' scriptures fall into place very well. Good work :)
 
Hi Josh,

As I understand it, you are suggesting that the moon turning to blood is an event 42 months earlier than the moon being darkened. And that the bloody moon is the sign of the antichrist awhile the darkened moon is the the sign of the coming of Christ Himself. I hope I have understood you correctly. Assuming for the moment that I have, I would like to make a few comments. I would like to quote a few things you wrote in an earlier thread.

You wrote, " In the sixth seal of Revelaton, we witness a group of People Hiding " from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne." THEY then proclaim, and conclude, that "the great day of His wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand" (rev. 6:15-17) These Folks are hiding from the Face of Him thast "sitteth on the throne" Is Jesus returning at this time? Do we see him on A horse with His bride following behind Him??? No we don't!!".

But then in the same paragraph you wrote, "We witness the very same event in Ezekilel 38:20. "All the men that are on the face of the earth shall shake at my presence", but once again, this is not when the Lord returns". It is this verse that, in my opinion, is the weakness in your view. More specifically the phrase, "at my presence". Who is speaking here? Verse 17 tells us, "Thus saith the Lord God". Ezekiel says that the earth will shake at the presence of God, but you are suggesting that He will not be present. In my opinion, this might be a good reason to review your thinking. May I suggest we go back to the blood reference to the moon in Joel.

We read in Joel 2:31, "The sun shall be turned unto darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come".

While we're at it, let's consider two of the other references to the day of the Lord in Joel.

Joel 2:1-2, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains....."

Joel 3:14-16, "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake....".

I believe that when Joel speaks of the moon turning to blood he is using the figure of speech, Metaphor. As is true of all figures of speech, the Metaphor is used to enhance a truth. The truth that is being enhanced is the utter terribleness of the darkness of the day of the Lord.

Given that Ezek. 38:20 speaks of the "presence" of God when the moon turns to blood, I believe we must see this as the same event as the other references to the day of the Lord.

Just a thought.

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Hi Josh,

I would like to add a bit from my previous message and comment on the timing of the sixth seal. As I understand it, you are suggesting that the sixth seal is opened, not before the day of the Lord, but before the tribulation.

Again, assuming that I understand you correctly I would like to call attention to Rev. 6:9-11 which reads, "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; and they cried with a loud voice, saying, "how long, O Lofd, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" And white robes were given unto every one of them.....".

Who are those in the white robes? That question is asked and answered in Rev. 7:13-14, "and one of the elders answered, saying unto me, 'What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?' And I said unto him, 'Sir, thou knowest.' And he said to me, 'These are they which came out fo the great tribulaiton, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'".

So what we have is: at the opening of the fifth seal John saw those who had been given white robes. Those in the white robes are the martyrs of the tribulation.

My point is that the opening of the fifth seal must be at the beginning of the tribulation or John coud not have seen those in the white robes (i.e. those who had been martyrs of the tribulation).

That being true, the opening of the sixth seal must represent the day of the Lord, which as you know, comes right after the tribulaiton.

Just a few more thougths.

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Hi Josh,

I would like to add a bit from my previous message and comment on the timing of the sixth seal. As I understand it, you are suggesting that the sixth seal is opened, not before the day of the Lord, but before the tribulation.

Again, assuming that I understand you correctly I would like to call attention to Rev. 6:9-11 which reads, "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; and they cried with a loud voice, saying, "how long, O Lofd, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" And white robes were given unto every one of them.....".

Who are those in the white robes? That question is asked and answered in Rev. 7:13-14, "and one of the elders answered, saying unto me, 'What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?' And I said unto him, 'Sir, thou knowest.' And he said to me, 'These are they which came out fo the great tribulaiton, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'".

So what we have is: at the opening of the fifth seal John saw those who had been given white robes. Those in the white robes are the martyrs of the tribulation.

My point is that the opening of the fifth seal must be at the beginning of the tribulation or John coud not have seen those in the white robes (i.e. those who had been martyrs of the tribulation).

That being true, the opening of the sixth seal must represent the day of the Lord, which as you know, comes right after the tribulaiton.

Just a few more thougths.

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Joyce said:
Hi Josh,

As I understand it, you are suggesting that the moon turning to blood is an event 42 months earlier than the moon being darkened. And that the bloody moon is the sign of the antichrist awhile the darkened moon is the the sign of the coming of Christ Himself. I hope I have understood you correctly. Assuming for the moment that I have, I would like to make a few comments. I would like to quote a few things you wrote in an earlier thread.

You wrote, " In the sixth seal of Revelaton, we witness a group of People Hiding " from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne." THEY then proclaim, and conclude, that "the great day of His wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand" (rev. 6:15-17) These Folks are hiding from the Face of Him thast "sitteth on the throne" Is Jesus returning at this time? Do we see him on A horse with His bride following behind Him??? No we don't!!".

But then in the same paragraph you wrote, "We witness the very same event in Ezekilel 38:20. "All the men that are on the face of the earth shall shake at my presence", but once again, this is not when the Lord returns". It is this verse that, in my opinion, is the weakness in your view. More specifically the phrase, "at my presence". Who is speaking here? Verse 17 tells us, "Thus saith the Lord God". Ezekiel says that the earth will shake at the presence of God, but you are suggesting that He will not be present. In my opinion, this might be a good reason to review your thinking. May I suggest we go back to the blood reference to the moon in Joel.

We read in Joel 2:31, "The sun shall be turned unto darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come".

While we're at it, let's consider two of the other references to the day of the Lord in Joel.

Joel 2:1-2, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains....."

Joel 3:14-16, "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake....".

I believe that when Joel speaks of the moon turning to blood he is using the figure of speech, Metaphor. As is true of all figures of speech, the Metaphor is used to enhance a truth. The truth that is being enhanced is the utter terribleness of the darkness of the day of the Lord.

Given that Ezek. 38:20 speaks of the "presence" of God when the moon turns to blood, I believe we must see this as the same event as the other references to the day of the Lord.

Just a thought.

In Christ,

Joyce
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Hi Joyce,
  • I don't know why you have concluded that I don't think the Lord will be present at the climax of the Ezekiel 38 event. To the contrary. The Lord States in Ezekeil 38:20, All shall shake at "my Presence". The people in the sixth seal state. "hide us from the "face" of Him that sitteth on the throne. If you compare these two words "presence" and "face" (look them up in your strong's if you have one) you will see that these two words are one and the same. You could interchange them, without changing the meaning of the scripture!!! What we are viewing is, two different perspectives of the same event. One perspective, In Ezeliel, It is through the Eyes of the Lord, and HIS reasons why these events are takning place. The second perspective, is from those who are EXPERIENCING THE EVENT WHEN IT OCCURS, and the conclusion they have drawn from experiencing the event. [list:sg6lejjm]One must realize what this event is, and why it is occuring. The Lord stated that he would bring a "strong delusion" on those that "love not the truth" His "revealing" (but not returning at this time) I believe is this strong delusion. This is occuring at the climax of the WOGAG in Israel, when the Lord himself will intevine to save Israel. This event will set the stage for antichirst. The world will think they Just experienced the final Battle.
  • You are correct with your conclusion that the "blood red moon event" is totally different than the time when both the sun and moon are darkened. One occurs before the day of the Lord,(although scripture never states how FAR before the day of the Lord it occurs, we mustn't assume, it is immediately before) the other at the Battle of Aarmageddom. Joel 3:12-15 (at the time of the harvest).
[/list:u:sg6lejjm] Read REv. 14:6-7.. We witness an angel flying through Heaven Proclaiming "the hour of His judgement is come". This is occuring immediatly after the description of the 42 month reign of the false messiah, in the 11th, 12th, and 13th chapters. This angel is proclaiming the very same thing those men who hide from God in the sixth seal. The only question is, who will we believe? Both can't be correct?? I'll stick with the angel. I don't want to follow the councel of one who hides from God. more to follow...
 
Joyce said:
Hi Josh,

I would like to add a bit from my previous message and comment on the timing of the sixth seal. As I understand it, you are suggesting that the sixth seal is opened, not before the day of the Lord, but before the tribulation.

Again, assuming that I understand you correctly I would like to call attention to Rev. 6:9-11 which reads, "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; and they cried with a loud voice, saying, "how long, O Lofd, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" And white robes were given unto every one of them.....".

Who are those in the white robes? That question is asked and answered in Rev. 7:13-14, "and one of the elders answered, saying unto me, 'What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?' And I said unto him, 'Sir, thou knowest.' And he said to me, 'These are they which came out fo the great tribulaiton, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'".

So what we have is: at the opening of the fifth seal John saw those who had been given white robes. Those in the white robes are the martyrs of the tribulation.

My point is that the opening of the fifth seal must be at the beginning of the tribulation or John coud not have seen those in the white robes (i.e. those who had been martyrs of the tribulation).

That being true, the opening of the sixth seal must represent the day of the Lord, which as you know, comes right after the tribulaiton.

Just a few more thougths.

In Christ,

Joyce
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Helo again Joyce...
  • I am so glad you brought up the event that is occuring in the fifth seal..Seeing we both know it, I won't quote it. [list:3qprfdwj]
Instaed of concentrating of what actions are taken toward the souls under the altar, lets concentrate on the Question that they ask.... [/list:u:3qprfdwj] Vs. 10how long O Lord, holy and true, dost thou NOT JUDGE and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
  • NOW, IF ANYONE WOULD KNOW THAT THE LORD'S JUDGEMENTS HAVE ALREADY BEGUN, IT WOULD BE THESE SOULS UNDER THE ALTAR OF GOD. Why then, are they asking this question???? If God's judgement has already begun to avenge their blood, then wouldn't this be a nonsensical question to ask? the answer that is given them, reveals that not only has God's Judgement NOT FALLEN yet, there is still a "short season" until it does. VS. 11. In this "shorth season it is prophesied that there will be more killed as they were "should be fulfilled".
  • So what does this prove?? Those that have given their life, have come out of "tribulation", but it HASN"T been God's Judgement. (i'll elaborate more on this later) This also proves that everything up to at least the fifth seal, HAS not BEEN Part of God's Judgment.
  • In Matthew 24, Jesus spoke of the two groups of martyers
. In verse 9 we read "Then they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, AND SHALL KILL YOU. (these are the souls under the altar we witness in the fifth seal) Jesus then continues and stated, "and THEN (IF YOU ARE NOT KILLED FIRST), shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." This is the second group. The first group, the souls under the altar, are killed in the "birthpains", while the second group, the group that is betrayed, is those who will turn on each other during the 42 month reign of the false messiah. I hope this all makes sense!!!
  • Now, lest get back to the term "they have come out of Great tribulation" anyone who has to give their life for the Lord will face "tribulation" . The 70th week of Daniel (in Jeremiah) has been labeled "the time of Jacob's "trouble"
This term "trouble" is "tribulation", but this mustn't been confused with the "great tribulation" Jesus makes a distinction between the two time periods. matthew 24:29
Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON NOT GIVE HER LIGHT (not to be confused with the blood red moon event).[quote:3qprfdwj]
  • According to Joel, 3:12-15 this event occurs, When? Vs, 13 "PUT YE IN THE SICKLE, FOR THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE. And, according to revelation, when does this harvest occur, when the sun and moon are darkened? Rev. 14:15-16.... "And he that sat upon the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.... See this clearly establishes the blood red moon event occurs way prior to the sun and moon being darkened. now that I got toally sidetracked, let me get back to the difference between the "time of Jacob's trouble" and the Day of the Lord.
  • We have accepted as "gospel truth," that what we have accpeted as the "great tribulation period" occurs in the last half of the seven year period. This conclusion has been established, because we have accepted the Abomination of desolation occuring, at the same time the sacrifices are stopped. We know the "sacrifices are taken away" in the midst of the week, but according to Daniel 12:11
[quote:3qprfdwj]Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up. there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days
Click to expand...
[/quote:3qprfdwj][/quote:3qprfdwj]
  • Daniel is given a 3 1/2 year time split between these two events. If this is true, and we know the sacrifices are taken away in the :midst" of the week, then where MUST the abomination of desolation occur timewise, in the order of event? 3/1 2years Later. or at the END of the 70th week! However, knowing the abomination of desolation Begins the TRUE day of the Lord, we can only conclude the "Great Tribulation", the events that follow the abomination of desolation, MUST occur Immediatelty AFTER the entire seven year time of Jacob's trouble./list] Just as Jesus stated, Immediatetly AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS....[list:3qprfdwj]We must rightly divide God's word, and make this discernment.
  • This is the reason why we see those under the altar, that have come out of "tribulation" (or the "time of Jacob's trouble), Asdking the Lord, HOW LONG, will you NOT JUDGE? His Wrath only falls After the 42 month reign of the false messiah. Which follows the real 70th week!!
  • This is where most of todays "prophets" have "missed the boat" Theyt try to "cram" the "great tribulation period" the time when God's wrath is poured out, into the last half of the 70th week, when in realtiy, it follows it.[list:3qprfdwj]
[/list:u:3qprfdwj][/list:u:3qprfdwj] Understandsing this time split, also RECONCILES ALL FOUR "RAPTURE VIEWS" I CALL IT THE "HARVEST" It will occur at the end of the 70th week, at the time of the abomination of desolation, before the wrath of God is poured out, but also Before the (great) tribulation!! (BUT AFTER THE TIME OF jACOB'S TROUBLE)
 
JOYCE,
  • I KNOW THIS ALL MAY SOUND A LITTLE CONFUSING! But this confusion his its roots in what we have accepted as "gospel truth' concerning the end times up until now.
  • In Daniel 9 The Lord promised "seventy weeks are determined upon thy people." If the Day of the Lord DID occur in the last half of the 70th week, then wouldn't the Lord be breaking His promise to His people? Wouldn't He be 'shortchanging" His people the final 3 1/2 years to come to the saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ? God's wrath is not directed at the Lord's people, but to those who have accepted the false (messiah) as the true.
According to Rev 11:15, at the sounding of the Seventh (last trump), The kingdoms of the World become the Kingdoms of our Lord. Does this occur during the 3 1/2 year reign of the false messiah? Nope! Before God's Wrath and Judgement can be poured out, there are many events that need to take place. The first, is the allowence of the false messiah to reign for 42 months. The second, is the Ambassadors of the Kingdom of God (you and I) MUST BE removed. Whether we know it or not, we are currently the Lord's ambassadors. Think about it this way, Whenever a country goes to war with another country, what occurs?? The ambassadors of the invading country are removed from the country that is to be invaded, before the invading armies are sent in. God Cannot pass Judgement, untill this event occurs!! He has taken back the ambassadors and their authority as representatives, and in their place sends in an army!
 
Hi Josh,

Thank you for your kind response. Unfortunately, my experience with discussion boards is that people tend to get rude when disagreed with. I am grateful therefore for your kindness.

You wrote, "If God's judgement has already begun to avenge their blood, then wouldn't this be a nonsensical question to ask?". And in your second message you wrote, "If the Day of the Lord DID occur in the last half of the 70th week, then wouldn't the Lord be breaking His promise to His people? Wouldn't He be 'shortchanging" His people the final 3 1/2 years to come to the saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ? God's wrath is not directed at the Lord's people, but to those who have accepted the false (messiah) as the true". And also, "Before God's Wrath and Judgement can be poured out, there are many events that need to take place. The first, is the allowence of the false messiah to reign for 42 months. The second, is the Ambassadors of the Kingdom of God (you and I) MUST BE removed".

It seems that you are saying that the tribulation is God's judgment? It sounds as if that is what you are saying, so I would like to comment on that.

I believe that the tribulation is not God's judgment. It is allowed by God to test Israel. Let me give the evidence of that testing first. We read in Rev. 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (should be trial), which shall come upon all the world to try (should be test) them that dwell upon the earth". In other words, the tribulation is not God's punishment. God allows Satan to test Israel, but the tribulation is Satan driven, and allowed by God.

How do we know that the tribulation is Satan driven?

Rev. 12 speaks of the woman, i.e. Israel (see verses 1-2 and 5) and a "great red dragon" (vs. 3). Verse 9 tells us who this great dragon is, "and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world.....". Then in verses 13-14 we read, "And when the dragon saw that she (Israel) was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent".

Dan. 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the MOST HIGH, and shall wear out the saints of the MOST HIGH, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time". The one into whose hand the martyrs will be given is the antichrist who serves Satan.

Dan. 8:23-25, "....a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand". There are several elements of this passage that we should note.

1) The "Prince of princes" is of course, Jesus Christ.

2) The one who will "destroy the holy People" and "magnify himself in his heart" is of course, the antichrist.

3) The phrase "but not by his own power" refers to Satan's power,and his control of the antichrist.

Dan. 9:26 reads, ".....and the people of the prince that shall come (the antichrist) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...".

In short, I believe the tribulation is Satan driven which God allows to test Israel. The day of God's wrath, on the other hand, which follows the tribulation, is God's punishment.

You wrote "there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel is given a 3 1/2 year time split between these two events. And you gave as your proof text "Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up".

You seem to be saying that there is 3 and 1/2 years between the ending of the sacrifices and the abomination being set up. First of all 1,290 days is not 3 and 1/2 years, it is 3 years and seven monthts. Therefore, I suggest we consider the context of Dan. 12. We read in verses 8-11, "and I heard, but I understood not: then said I, 'O My Lord, what shall be the end of these things ? And he said, Go thy way Daniel; for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end'. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1, 335 days".

I believe that the 1,290 days is not between the two events of the end of the sacrifice and the abomination, but between the beginning of those two events and the end of all that needs to be accomplished in regard to Daniel's People. Note it is 30 days longer than the tribulation.

May I make one other comment about "Jacob's trouble" and "the great tribulation". We read in Jer. 30:7, "alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble......". And we read in Matt. 24:21, "For then (when the abomination is placed in the temple, vs. 15) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no mor ever shall be".

We have in both passages the statement that this time will be like no other before or after it. Therefore, logic demands that they both must refer to the same event. That is to say, if Jacob's trouble is going to be the worst thing in history, past and future, it can't be less than or more than the time about which or Lord spoke in Matt. 24.

You wrote, "In Matthew 24, Jesus spoke of the two groups of martyers. In verse 9 we read "Then they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, AND SHALL KILL YOU. (these are the souls under the altar we witness in the fifth seal". In the same paragraph you wrote, "The first group, the souls under the altar, are killed in the "birthpains",

But we read in Rev. that the ones under the fifth seal have their white robes. And in chapter 7 we read that those in the white robes are the ones who have been martyred in the tribulation, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). So those under the fifth seal are not the martyrs of the birth pains, they are the martyrs of the tribulation.

Then you wrote, "According to Joel, 3:12-15 this event occurs, When? Vs, 13 "PUT YE IN THE SICKLE, FOR THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE. And, according to revelation, when does this harvest occur, when the sun and moon are darkened? Rev. 14:15-16.... "And he that sat upon the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.... See this clearly establishes the blood red moon event occurs way prior to the sun and moon being darkened. now that I got toally sidetracked, let me get back to the difference between the "time of Jacob's trouble" and the Day of the Lord".

I must confess, I don't know how you came to the conclusion you have. I would appreciate a clarification. Thank you. But I would like to ask a question. Do you believe that the moon will literally turn to blood? That is to say, will the moon be actual blood?

I look forward to your response.

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Joyce said:
Hi Josh,

Thank you for your kind response. Unfortunately, my experience with discussion boards is that people tend to get rude when disagreed with. I am grateful therefore for your kindness.

You wrote, "If God's judgement has already begun to avenge their blood, then wouldn't this be a nonsensical question to ask?". And in your second message you wrote, "If the Day of the Lord DID occur in the last half of the 70th week, then wouldn't the Lord be breaking His promise to His people? Wouldn't He be 'shortchanging" His people the final 3 1/2 years to come to the saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ? God's wrath is not directed at the Lord's people, but to those who have accepted the false (messiah) as the true". And also, "Before God's Wrath and Judgement can be poured out, there are many events that need to take place. The first, is the allowence of the false messiah to reign for 42 months. The second, is the Ambassadors of the Kingdom of God (you and I) MUST BE removed".

It seems that you are saying that the tribulation is God's judgment? It sounds as if that is what you are saying, so I would like to comment on that.

I believe that the tribulation is not God's judgment. It is allowed by God to test Israel. Let me give the evidence of that testing first. We read in Rev. 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (should be trial), which shall come upon all the world to try (should be test) them that dwell upon the earth". In other words, the tribulation is not God's punishment. God allows Satan to test Israel, but the tribulation is Satan driven, and allowed by God.

How do we know that the tribulation is Satan driven?

Rev. 12 speaks of the woman, i.e. Israel (see verses 1-2 and 5) and a "great red dragon" (vs. 3). Verse 9 tells us who this great dragon is, "and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world.....". Then in verses 13-14 we read, "And when the dragon saw that she (Israel) was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent".

Dan. 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the MOST HIGH, and shall wear out the saints of the MOST HIGH, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time". The one into whose hand the martyrs will be given is the antichrist who serves Satan.

Dan. 8:23-25, "....a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand". There are several elements of this passage that we should note.

1) The "Prince of princes" is of course, Jesus Christ.

2) The one who will "destroy the holy People" and "magnify himself in his heart" is of course, the antichrist.

3) The phrase "but not by his own power" refers to Satan's power,and his control of the antichrist.

Dan. 9:26 reads, ".....and the people of the prince that shall come (the antichrist) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...".

In short, I believe the tribulation is Satan driven which God allows to test Israel. The day of God's wrath, on the other hand, which follows the tribulation, is God's punishment.

You wrote "there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel is given a 3 1/2 year time split between these two events. And you gave as your proof text "Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up".

You seem to be saying that there is 3 and 1/2 years between the ending of the sacrifices and the abomination being set up. First of all 1,290 days is not 3 and 1/2 years, it is 3 years and seven monthts. Therefore, I suggest we consider the context of Dan. 12. We read in verses 8-11, "and I heard, but I understood not: then said I, 'O My Lord, what shall be the end of these things ? And he said, Go thy way Daniel; for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end'. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1, 335 days".

I believe that the 1,290 days is not between the two events of the end of the sacrifice and the abomination, but between the beginning of those two events and the end of all that needs to be accomplished in regard to Daniel's People. Note it is 30 days longer than the tribulation.

May I make one other comment about "Jacob's trouble" and "the great tribulation". We read in Jer. 30:7, "alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble......". And we read in Matt. 24:21, "For then (when the abomination is placed in the temple, vs. 15) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no mor ever shall be".

We have in both passages the statement that this time will be like no other before or after it. Therefore, logic demands that they both must refer to the same event. That is to say, if Jacob's trouble is going to be the worst thing in history, past and future, it can't be less than or more than the time about which or Lord spoke in Matt. 24.

You wrote, "In Matthew 24, Jesus spoke of the two groups of martyers. In verse 9 we read "Then they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, AND SHALL KILL YOU. (these are the souls under the altar we witness in the fifth seal". In the same paragraph you wrote, "The first group, the souls under the altar, are killed in the "birthpains",

But we read in Rev. that the ones under the fifth seal have their white robes. And in chapter 7 we read that those in the white robes are the ones who have been martyred in the tribulation, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). So those under the fifth seal are not the martyrs of the birth pains, they are the martyrs of the tribulation.

Then you wrote, "According to Joel, 3:12-15 this event occurs, When? Vs, 13 "PUT YE IN THE SICKLE, FOR THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH IS RIPE. And, according to revelation, when does this harvest occur, when the sun and moon are darkened? Rev. 14:15-16.... "And he that sat upon the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.... See this clearly establishes the blood red moon event occurs way prior to the sun and moon being darkened. now that I got toally sidetracked, let me get back to the difference between the "time of Jacob's trouble" and the Day of the Lord".

I must confess, I don't know how you came to the conclusion you have. I would appreciate a clarification. Thank you. But I would like to ask a question. Do you believe that the moon will literally turn to blood? That is to say, will the moon be actual blood?

I look forward to your response.

In Christ,

Joyce
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Hello again Joyce...
  • Wow, that was quite a response to my posts!! I want to thank you for your patience, I see you have an understanding of the many small "details' concerning prophecy. This is good!!! I will try to respond to your inquiries, to the best of My ability. [list:1zgr5gnj]
First, I wholehearted agree with your conclusion, that what occurs in the "time of Jacob's trouble" IS NOT any part of the Judgement or wrath of God!! [/list:u:1zgr5gnj] I view the world actually going through three stages. They consist of Man's inhumanity to man, Followed by Satan's wrath, then the Wrath and Judgement of God.Let me give you my foundation of the order of events as I see rhem. this may alleviate some of the confusion, where we are not connecting. As I understand scripture, I see the following.1. The true seventieth week of Daniel, the Time of Jacob's trouble consists of 3 1/2 years of "birthpains" (wars and rumors of wars) in the first half, Followed by the 42 month reign of the false Messiah, in the second half. At the end of His 42 month reign, His real identity is made known.(II Thess, 2:3) This is also the end of the 70th week. This is also when the abomination of desolation occurs 1290 days after the stopping of the sacrifices (Daniel 12:11) this opens the Day of the Lord, which, follows "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (matthew 24:29). This is the only foundation I can establish considering ALL prophetic scripture, without ommitting any.
  • i totally agree that the 42 month reign of the false messiah IS a time of testing on the entire World. But what has brought this testing On? Why Now? We need to concentrate on what has occured before the "testing". While the majority of the Christian community wait with "baited breath" for the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, have they considered the Lord's heart attitude when this occurs?? Amos 5:20 reveals God's heart attitude toward the restarting of the regular sacrifices. This will be nothing but a total rejection of HIS provisional sacrifice which HE gave in His son Jesus. Thus the reason behind why HE puts "hooks in the Jaws of the Islamic world and russia in Ezekiel 38, and brings them dowm on HIS OWN people. The only reason why the Lord has done this in the past is for correction!! What have they done to bring this kind of action against themselves from God? A total rejection of His son Jesus!!! The sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week (by God) using the hand of this army. After they done performing His will, he will destroy them. This is the same pattern we see the Lord has used concerning Israel in the past. [list:1zgr5gnj]
Now, there is a dual reason WHY this event is occuring. We read in Ezekiel 38:16 " I will bring thee against my land so the HEATHEN may know me." This is the climax of the "birthpains". While the Lord Shows his power to those who DON'T KNOW HIM, when he destroys this army, this is also the "strong delusion" to those who "love not the truth". This for those who have heard the truth, but have rejected it.. The people in the sixth seal, who hide from God, and are proclaiming it is the Day of His wrath are those People. Perception of what this event truly is, when it occurs, will be the greatest factor if one will be decieved or not. In matthew 24, the disciples asked the Lord "what shall be the "sign" of your coming. This term "sign" in Orig. Means "token Miracle". this is what we are witnessing at the climax of the Ezekiel 38 war. WHen the Lord does reveal Himself at this battle, it will be a miracle. [/list:u:1zgr5gnj]
  • Jesus stated in Matthew, you will hear of "wars and rumors of Wars, But the end is not yet. We have accepted the explanation, that this is Just a "general warning" of the condition of the world prior to His return. But what if it wasn't? Remember, Jesus is answering the question, what shall be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?? Why then does Jesus reply with, "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but the end is NOT YET?" What kind of answer is this, when they are inquiring was IS the end?? You see, Jesus IS telling them the correct answer. What Jesus Meant was... You shall hear of Wars and rumors of Wars, that shall APPEAR TO BE THE END, BUT THE END IS NOT YET! This was a very specific warning from Jesus, not a general one!!!! `ThIS IS WHY jESUS ALSO WENT ON TO EXPLAIN, "lo, if they shall say unto you here is christ, or there BELIEVE IT NOT. The antichrist will be accepted as THE RETURNED MESSIAH? Why? Because they didn't heed this warning? They have accepted the "wars and rumors of Wars" AS THE END!
  • If one studies out the four Horsemen of the seals, and compare them with what Jesus stated what would occur in the "birthpains" it is quite easy to see the corralation. THE BIRTHPAINS JESUS SPOKE OF, AND THE Seals are one and the same.
  • So, what has occured up to this time?? These are all events that occur Prior to the reign of the false messiah. Because of the events that accompany the climax of the ezekiel 38 war (the Lord revealing Himself, a great earthquake, and the blood red moon event, all occiuring in the Midst of the week when the sacrifices are stopped) most of the World, and unfortunately, those that Love not the truth, will accept this as Armageddon!! They are drawing this conclusion by what they are seeing and experiencing, instead of understanding what is occuring, according to the Word of God!!
. Up till now we have only witnessed the first 3 1/2 years of the time of Jacob's trouble!! If this is accepted AS the day of the Lord, What must also be percieved to be fulfilled? It would have to be the wrath of God!! Compare the destruction the first four trumpets bring on, and the destruction the vials of the wrath of God bring on. They are the same becuase they effect the same thing Water, trees, grass, ect. The two big differences are, only 1/3 is destroyed in the the trumpets, while ALL is destroyed in the vials! The second big diffeerence is the trumpets, the first six are all sounded Before the reign of the false Messiah, but the vials of the Wrath of God, are poured out AFTER his reign. What have we Just witnessed? 1/4 of Humanity Killed in the seals, and 1/3 more in the the first six trumpets. Things are getting progressively worse. Jesus has a word for this "birthpains". Looking at the destruction the trumpets bring on, I believe they will be sounded in very rapid sucsession. In the fifth and sixth trumpet, we witness Satan being cast out of heaven (fifth trump) and His hordes of Fallen angels being Let loose to come to earth with Him (sixth trumpet). Now the stage is set for antichrist!!Now, Lets take a break for a moment. Lets consider this "halftime" prophetically speaking. lets consider what John was told in revelation 10:11
And he said unto me "THOU MUST PROPHECY AGAIN BEFORE MANY PEOPLES, AND NATIONS, AND TONGUES, AND KINGS."
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  • Have you ever wondered why John is told this?? What events has he witnessed up this point in time? What events are still yet future?? Everything John has witnessed up to this point and time, the seals and first six trumpets, is a "mirror image" of events that will still be future!! Everything witnessed up to this point and time, will be accepted as full prophetic fulfillment, but actually occurs prior to the reign of the false messiah, and the day of the Lord!!! Thus, the reason WHY John is told he must "prophecy again".[list:1zgr5gnj]
There have been alot of folks who have studied Prophecy, and have come to the conclusion, that events in Revelation are concurrent, and NOT consecutive. This conclusion has been drawn, because they lacked the understanding, that what is occuring is a "duplication" of events. It isn't an actual "duplication," but it is events that sound so simular, they have drawn the conclusion, events in Revelation must be concurrent descriptions. They don't see it as a near perfect "duplication." This is why it is so important to understand small details such as the blood red moon event occuring Before the day of the Lord, but the event when Both the Sun and moon are "darkened" (turned black in orig. Greek) occuring later in the oreder of events. They do sound the same, but they are different. But you see, there was a reason for it!!! More to follow!! [/list:u:1zgr5gnj]
 
Hello again Joyce....
  • I need to clarify a few more points you brought up. The first deals with jeremiah 30:7 and Matthew 24:21. You have concluded because the wording is somewhat the same, the event is the same, But is the wording actually the same?? Look at it again... concering the time of Jacob's trouble, it is stated, "alas for that day is great, so that none is like it." all this is stating, is that up till this event happens, there hasn't been anything like it. However, in Matthew 34:21, we view the added wording, No, nor ever shall be, concering what occurs after the abomination of desolation. It is what occurs after the AOD, that will never be anything like it after. One event is projecting to the past, the other is both past and future.
  • concerning the 1290 days, and what appears to be a 30 day, or one month descepancy, one only needs to understand the Jewish calendar. Normally 1260 days would cover a "42" month period of time, However, every sixth year the jewish calendar, would have what is called a "pregnant year". To make up the extra 5 days per year they would loose do to them operating on a 30 day month.
It is still technically considered 42 months. The false messiah's reign will occur, according to the Jewish calendar, when "a pregnant month" is present. Concerning the Phrase of Daniel 12:12, "Blessed is he that comes to the 1335th day", reveals a 45 day period After the time of Jacob's trouble. A special blessing Is proclaimed on those who make it through this time period, for I believe it is in this time period the wrath of God is poured out. (mankind won't survive too Long considering all the water is Poisoned). Think about it!
  • I guess I need to clafiy the path I laid for you to understand the differences between the Blood red moon event, and the event when both the sun and moon are darkened. The blood red moon event is spoken of in Joel 2:30-31. It clearly states that this occurs before the day of the Lord comes. We see its fulfillment in Rev. 6:12, in the sixth seal.
  • We can establish when the sun and moon are darkened, by association with another event. Read Joel 3:13. it states "put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. this 'reaping" occurs when the sun and moon are darkened, correct? (vs. 15) Although we don't specificlly see the sun and moon darkened in Revelation, what we do see is when the reaping from the sickle does occur, subsequently, when the sun and moon are darkened!!!! This event occurs in Revelation 14:15-20. This reaping prepares the World to face the vials of the wrath of God. This is when the sun and moon are darkened... The blood red moon event, occurs much much earlier in the order of events according to revelation. I hope this clarifies things for you!
  • couple more things that need "clafication." you conclude that those in the white robes come out "the great tribultaion period" is that what the word states?? The true wording is "these are they that came out of "great tribulation". This is not referring to a specific time frame, but a condition. If one had to be killed for there testimony, wouldn't you consider that great trouble? These are those who are killed in the birthpains, for one must understand that the birthpains DO OCCUR within the time of Jacob's tribulation (trouble), in the first 3 1/2 years.
 
Hi Josh,

Thank you again for your kind response. And I will comment on it to the best of my ability as well.

I am going to address your comments out of the order in which you gave them, because I may now understand the crux of our disagreement.

You wrote, "Up till now we have only witnessed the first 3 1/2 years of the time of Jacob's trouble!! If this is accepted AS the day of the Lord, What must also be percieved to be fulfilled? ". As I understand it, you are assuming that everything that is written after Rev. 6 12-17 which speaks of the events revealed when the sixth seal is opened will occur in the day of God's wrath. Assuming that I am understanding you correctly let me comment on that.

Dr. E.W. Bullinger suggests that everything that occurs when the 7th seal is opened, which includes all the vials and all the trumpets etc. up until the coming of the Lord is a fuller explanation of what will occur under the fifth and sixth seals. Yes, I can already hear a loud cry of rejection-ha. But let me tell you why I believe that it is a very good suggestion.

We read in Rev. 6:12-4 that under the sixth seal "heaven departed as a scroll when it rolled together". And that "the stars of heaven fell" and "the sun became black and the moon became as blood". Now let's look at Rev. 8:12 which speaks of events revealed under the 7th seal. We read that "the third part of the sun and moon.......was darkened". But under the sixth seal we read that the sun "became black" and the moon "became as blood", i.e. literally, darkened. If the sun and the moon were darkened under the sixth seal how could only a third of them be darkened afterwards? I believe it is obvious that they can't be. Therefore, I agree with the suggetion that the seventh seal is a more complete explanation of previous seals.

And that eliminates the assumption of the seventh seal revealing the event of the day of God's wrath.

Now let me go to the other comments.

I'm sorry I don't understand your point about John being told to prophecy. I would appreciate a clarification. Thank you.

You wrote, "The true seventieth week of Daniel, the Time of Jacob's trouble consists of 3 1/2 years of "birthpains" (wars and rumors of wars) in the first half, Followed by the 42 month reign of the false Messiah, in the second half. At the end of His 42 month reign, His real identity is made known.(II Thess, 2:3) This is also the end of the 70th week".. I agree 100% with that.

But then you wrote, "This is also when the abomination of desolation occurs 1290 days after the stopping of the sacrifices (Daniel 12:11) ....... (matthew 24:29)".

Let me comment on your explanation of the 1, 290 days you gave in your seocnd message. You wrote, "concerning the 1290 days, and what appears to be a 30 day, or one month descepancy, one only needs to understand the Jewish calendar. Normally 1260 days would cover a "42" month period of time, However, every sixth year the jewish calendar, would have what is called a "pregnant year". To make up the extra 5 days per year they would loose do to them operating on a 30 day month. It is still technically considered 42 months. The false messiah's reign will occur, according to the Jewish calendar, when "a pregnant month" is present".

In a different thread you agreed that we must not go to man's writings to interpret scriputre, i.e. that we must always interpet scripture with scripture. There is absolutely nothing in God's Word that tells us that the years of the reign of the antichrist will be a "pregnant year". Also, it is my understanding that it is not every sixth year, as you suggest, but every 17 years that the adjustment is made. But again, this is not revealed, as far as I know in the Bible, and just like today's newspapers, should not, in my opinion, be used in the interpretation of God's prophecy. The Bible should be interpreted by what is written in the Bible.

Then you wrote, "Blessed is he that comes to the 1335th day", reveals a 45 day period After the time of Jacob's trouble. A special blessing Is proclaimed on those who make it through this time period, for I believe it is in this time period the wrath of God is poured out. (mankind won't survive too Long considering all the water is Poisoned).".

But Jacob's trouble is only 1,260 days, so where did the extra 45 days come from? Let me say something about the "wrath of God". I shared in the beginning of this message my reasons for believing that the 7th seal does not reveal events that will occur after those of the 6th seal, but it reveals a fuller explanation of the events revealed under previous seals. So I will ask you to re-consider the lenght of time of God's wrath. We read in Rev. 18 of the destruction of Babylon which will take place in the time of God's wrath. We are told several times that it will be "in one hour". Therefore, there is scriptural evidence to conclude that the day of God's wrath will be anything like 45 days.

Also, we are told any number of times that those who make it through the 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation will receive the special blessing of reigning with Christ. I do not know of any verse that tells us of a special blessing for those who make it another 45 days, do you?

That being the case, I believe that Dan. 12:11 speaks of the time between the taking away of the daily sacrifice and the placing of the abomination (the same time) and "the time of the end" of verse 9. So I repeat, there is no time between the placing of the abomination and the ending of the sacrifice, i.e. they both occur at the middle of the 70th week.

On the subject of the ending of the sacrifice, you wrote, "Amos 5:20 reveals God's heart attitude toward the restarting of the regular sacrifices. This will be nothing but a total rejection of HIS provisional sacrifice which HE gave in His son Jesus".

It is widely accepted that the Jews have been and will be wrong in continuing the sacrifices because Christ's sacrifice was all suficient for the sins of man. There is no question that Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient. But even though that is true, that does not mean that Israel should never again offer sacrifies. God's ways are not our ways.

Please consider Is. 56:6-8, "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant; even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon Mine altar; for Mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. The Lord Which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, 'Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him'".

To what time period does this passage refer? I believe the clue is found in the phrase, "The Lord Which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, 'Yet will I gather others". Is this gathering of Israel after the 70 year captivity or is it the gathering for the millennium? In order to answer that question we must determine who are the "others" referred to in this passage. Given that it speaks of the gathering of Israel and "others", I believe we must conclude that the "others" are Gentiles. There is nothing in the Word of God that tells us that Gentiles were gathered for the return to Jerusalem after the 70 year captivity, but there is Scriptural evidence that Gentiles will be gathered for the millennial reign.

Is. 49:22 also tells of the gathering of Gentiles for the millennial reign. "See I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up My banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.  Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens you nursing mothers.  They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground; they will lick the dust at your feet.  Then you will know that I am the Lord".

Is. 56:6-8 will be fulfilled in the millennium. And we read in this millennial passage "their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon Mine altar". Therefore, I believe that in spite of the fact that Christ's sacrifice was certainly sufficient, we must not assume that God has put away the Mosaic Law, including the sacrifices. His ways are not our ways. Please, please see also Ezek. 36:27, Ezek. 43:19-21, 25 and 27, 44:10-11, 45:17, Zech. 14:21 and Mal. 3:2-4,. These are also millennial prophecies that speak of animal sacrifices called for by God in the millennium. If you require more proof that believing Israel was still to offer sacrifices even after Christ's death on the cross, please let me know and I will be happy to provide more scriptural evidence from the NT.

Because the sacrifices will be instituted by God in the millennium, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion that "The sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week (by God) using the hand of this army".

Then you wrote, "Now, there is a dual reason WHY this event is occuring. We read in Ezekiel 38:16 " I will bring thee against my land so the HEATHEN may know me." This is the climax of the "birthpains". I believe that the first 16 verses of Ezek. 38 are post-millennial. They are spoken of Rev, 20:7-9. I don't really see how this impacts our question so I will save the scriptural proof of that and will share it if you feel it is germaine.

I agree with your paragraph that states that the first 14 verses of Matt. 24 is the first half of the 70th week, i.e. the bith pains. But I don't see how that proves that those seen when the sixth seal is opened are those martyrs. As I mentioned in my last message, we are specifically told that those revealed when the sixth seal is opened are those in white robes, and those in whtie robes are the martyrs of the tribulaion, which is the second half of the 70th week.

Let me quote what you wrote about that in your second message and comment on it here. You wrote, "you conclude that those in the white robes come out "the great tribultaion period" is that what the word states?? The true wording is "these are they that came out of "great tribulation". This is not referring to a specific time frame, but a condition. If one had to be killed for there testimony, wouldn't you consider that great trouble?

According to the NIV Greek Interlinear that verse reads literally, "these are the ones coming out of the affliction, the great....". ( I don't understand why they translated as "affliction: because it is the same Greek word used in Matt. 24:21 which obviously refers to the great tribulation.) In Greek the definite article "the" limits what it it modifies. In this case the "the" limits the tribulaiton to the great tribulation. In fact the definite article is also used before the word "great", once again limiting it. So the Greek makes it very clear that it is the great tribulation that is the subject of Rev. 7:14, not an indefinite period of trouble.

You wrote of, "the blood red moon event, all occiuring in the Midst of the week when the sacrifices are stopped)...." Let me share with you the reasons I do not agree that the "blood red moon event" is a different event than the sun and moon being darkened.

1) Joel does not say that the moon will be "blood red", he wrote that the moon shall be "turned into blood" (Joel 2:31). And Rev. 6:12 also does not say that the moon will be "blood red", it says that "the moon became as blood". In point of fact, the phrase "became as" tells us quite specifically that it is a metaphor. Because it is a metaphor it must be the same event as the sun and moon being darkened.

2) Also, unless you believe that the moon will literally be turned into blood, we must conclude that it is a figure of speech. If it is a figure of speech it enhances the truth that the moon will be darkened, which is what we are told in a number of passages will happen at the end of the week, not in the midst of it.

3) The opening of the fifth seal reveals tribulation martyrs (which is proved by the Greek) in white robes. Birth pains martyrs do not have white robes. Therefore, the opening of the sixth seal reveals what comes after the end of the tribulation, not before it. Again, the Greek does not allow the interpretation that those in the whtie robes seen when the 5th seal was opened are martyrs of anything but the great tribulation.

I will comment on this same subject that you wrote about in your second message. You wrote, "We can establish when the sun and moon are darkened, by association with another event. Read Joel 3:13. it states "put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. this 'reaping" occurs when the sun and moon are darkened, correct? (vs. 15) Although we don't specificlly see the sun and moon darkened in Revelation, what we do see is when the reaping from the sickle does occur, subsequently, when the sun and moon are darkened!!!! This event occurs in Revelation 14:15-20. This reaping prepares the World to face the vials of the wrath of God. This is when the sun and moon are darkened... The blood red moon event, occurs much much earlier in the order of events according to revelation".

I will tell you that I have read this about 8 times, and I am still not sure I understand where you're coming from. Sorry to be so slow. I need to ask a few questions which may help me.

You wrote that "This reaping prepares the World to face the vials of the wrath of God". I don't see that. How is reaping a preparation? And who reaps what? But let me go to the question of when this reaping will take place.

I will have to leave it at that, because I don't think I really understand your point yet. I'm very sorry.

Now to your second message.

You wrote, "You have concluded because the wording is somewhat the same, the event is the same, But is the wording actually the same?? Look at it again... concering the time of Jacob's trouble, it is stated, "alas for that day is great, so that none is like it." all this is stating, is that up till this event happens, there hasn't been anything like it."

Let's take a yet closer look at Jer. 30:7. The phrase under discussion is "so that none is like it". To begin with, the verb "is" is not in the Hebrew, so it should read, "so that none like it". So it is not, as you suggest, limited to the past.The Holy Spirit is saying through Jeremiah that Jacob's trouble is so great that there is none like it. If it was limited to the past it would have to say, "there has not been anything like it". But because the verb is not given in the Hebrew, we cannot say that the phrase is limited to the past. Therefore, because logic will not allow for there to be two different events that will be the worst, I believe that Jacob's trouble is the same as the great tribulation.

I look forward again to your response.

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Hi again,

I happened to think of one other thing in regard to 1, 290 days. You wrote, "The false messiah's reign will occur, according to the Jewish calendar, when "a pregnant month" is present."

Since, as far as I know, no one knows the years of the reign of the antichrist, I don't see how anyone can say that it will include a "pregnant month".

Am I missing something?

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Good evening Joyce...
  • I have alot to respond to concerning your two previous posts, so I will have to do it in multiple posts. I may not get to all of it tonight. First, I want to tackle the time split between the stopping of the sacrifices, and the abomination of Desolation. To do this I must first give an explanation of what I see the event called the "abomination of desolation actually is.
  • I'll begin to establish what this event is by the words of Jesus himself.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore SEE the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whosoever readeth, let him understand) vs 21 For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be.
Click to expand...
  • What can we conclude from this passage? Whatever the AOD is, it must be able to be seen. Jesus stated, when ye therefore see the aod. Now Jesus also stated that it will stand in the "holy place". Well, what exactly is the "holy place".. what is meant by this? Most have concluded that this is some form of image set up in the temple, or perhaps the false Mesiah himself sitting in the temple stating He is God, but is it? Now, If the false Messiah did this IN the temple, in the holy of holies, would one be able to see it?? I think not.
  • We need to expand our understanding of what the "Holy place" is. According to scripture, it encompasses much more than Just the Holy of Holies.
Lev. 6:16 And the remainder thereof shall Aaron and his sons eat: with unleavened bread shall it be eaten IN THE HOLY PLACE: IN THE COURT OF THE TABERNACLE OF THE CONGREGATION THEY SHALL EAT IT.
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  • Now this is interesting!! This passage clearly defines the "court of the tabernacle of the congregation" as also being the "Holy place". This court is part of the temple complex, but outside of the actual temple!!! Now this is Important, because in Revelation we read....
Rev. 11:2 " But the court (the holy place) which is without the temple LEAVE OUT for it is given unto the gentiles: and the holy city they shall tread forty and two months.
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  • The point I am trying to make. is, it appears that whatever the abomination of desolation is, must and will be seen, It will be able to be seen, becuase it occurs in the Holy place, in the court that has been given over to the gentiles for 42 months
  • Now I want to turn our attention Back to what Jesus said, but I also want to compare what Jesus stated, with an event that we witness, Spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Pay very, very close attention to the wording here, you will see that this event is the abomination of Desolation. First Matthew 24
Matthew 24: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.. VS 21 for then shall be great Tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Click to expand...
  • Now compare the following scripture with what Jesus stated
Daniel 11;45 and12-1 And he shall plant the tabernacles of His palace between the seas in the glorious mountian: yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. and at THAT TIME (what time? when he "plants the tabernacles of His palce) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people, AND THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE SUCH AS NEVER WAS , SINCE THERE WAS A NATION.
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  • NOW IF WE COMPARE THE TWO WE CLEARLY SEE WHAT THE ACTION CALLED THE "ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IS"
  • According to Daniel, the "abomination of desolation" HE spoke of, is when the false Messiah "plants" the tabernacles (tent) of His palace, in the Holy place. it will be when He rules from the temple mount for the entire 42 month period. You see I believe the abomination of desolation is not Just a single act, but a continuous "action", that begins at the stopping of the sacrifices, but will come its fulfillment at the end of the 42 month reign. I believe that when true identity of the false Messiah is revealed, The abomination of the desolator, His final act, will be to THEN step into the temple, and claim to be God. Why Now? Simple!! Up to this Point, all have "wondered after Him," and have freely accepted Him as God!! This will be His final act of rebellion towards God, and now its "Game time!" It is now we will witness the armies of Heaven being led by Christ, entering into the Kingdoms of the World, for they now have become the Kingdoms of Our Lord and Christ!!![list:zngk3tz2]All that being said, I must now establish Why I know there is a 3 1/2 time gap between the events.
  • Lets first take a look at the scripture in question. Daniel 12:11
And FROM THE TIME THAT the daily sacrifices shall be taken away, AND the abomination of desolation (be) set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Click to expand...
  • You state that you "believe" that this IS NOT a time split, Correct? Well do you "believe" the following is NOT a time split also? When you read the following verse, play close attention to the sentence structure.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that FROM the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, unto the Mesiah the prince, THERE SHALL BE SEVEN WEEKS, AND THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS....
Click to expand...
  • CAN YOU ESTABLISH THE CONTINUITY OF THE SENTENCE STRUCTURE IN BOTH OF THESE PASSAGES??
BOTH PASSAGES FIRST LIST THE TWO EVENTS. AFTER THE TWO EVENTS THE TIME SPLITE BETWEEN SAID EVENTS IS THEN ESTABLISHED.
  • How can one accept there is 69 weeks of years between the going forth of the commandment to restore Israel, and the Messiah's Appearence, but then deny there is a 1290 Day Split between the Daniel 12:11 Events?
[/list:u:zngk3tz2] to do so, one is establishing a criteria of how to interprate one scripture one way, but the second scripture another way!!! To deny there is a 1290 day time split of the events in Daniel 12:11, you would also have to deny the 69 weeks of years time split of daniel 9:25!!! The penman of Daniel's Prophecy has been very consistant of His writing style of the day, and i don't think we have the liberty to change our interpratation of them, Just because we understand one, but may not fully comprehend the other.... More to follow!! God Bless!!
 
Hi Josh,

As I understand it you believe that the abomination is the tent of the antichrist which will be set up at the end of his reign in the temple. May I explain why I can not agree.

First of all, the Hebrew word translated "abomination" is used 27 times in the OT and is always or most of the time (I did not look up all 27 occurrences) used of an idol. Therefore, I believe that we must have very strong scriptural evidence to conclude that the abomination that the antichrist will set up is something other than what the word is usually used for, i.e. an idol.

Secondly, we must understand the Hebrew and Greek words translated "holy". The Hebrew word is "kohdesh". Let me give you an idea how it is used by the Holy Spirit. The first occurrence is in Ex. 3:5, "...the place wherein thou standest is holy". What does that mean? It means that that ground is separated unto God. The second occurrence is in Ex. 12:16, "the first day there shall be an holy convocation". What does that mean? It means that the first day shall be separated unto God. We read in Ex. 22:31, "ye shall be holy unto Me". Israel was separated from all nations unto God. Ex. 28:2, "thou shalt make holy garments". Those garments were to be separated unto God. Ex. 28:6, "put the holy crown upon the mitre". The crown was separated unto God. My point is that the Hebrew word translated "holy" in Dan. 11:45 means "separated", nothing less and nothing more. And the Greek word translated "holy" means, as one would expect, the same thing. If you would like proof of that please let me know. The Hebrew word used in Lev. 6:16 is the adjectiveal form. It is used of Israel, of water etc.

In other words, the word "holy" does not tell us what is holy, it tells us only that it is separated unto God. To find out what is separated, we must consider the context. Having said that let's return to Daniel 11:45 to determine where the antichrist will "plant the tabernacle". That verse reads, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain....". There's only one holy (separated unto God) mountain mentioned in God's Word, it is of course, Zion, just outside Jerusalem. The temple will be, of course, in the city of Jerusalem. Therefore, the antichrist will not place his tabernacles in the temple. so this line of thought, at least, does not prove a period of time between the ending of the sacrifice and the placing of the abomination.

You suggested that the phrase Dan. 12:1, "at that time" refers to the time when the antichrist will set up his tabernacle. But verse 2 reads, "And (note that verse 2 is connected by the word "and" to verse 1) many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake....". This is obviously the resurrection. The resurrection is, I hope you agree, is at the second coming of Christ, which is certainly not during the reign of the antichrist. Therefore, I believe that the phrase "at that time" refers to the end times, which is the subject of Dan. chapters 8-12.

I puzzled over this statement for quite a while. You wrote, "When you read the following verse, play close attention to the sentence structure.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that FROM the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, unto the Mesiah the prince, THERE SHALL BE SEVEN WEEKS, AND THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS....
CAN YOU ESTABLISH THE CONTINUITY OF THE SENTENCE STRUCTURE IN BOTH OF THESE PASSAGES??
BOTH PASSAGES FIRST LIST THE TWO EVENTS. AFTER THE TWO EVENTS THE TIME SPLITE BETWEEN SAID EVENTS IS THEN ESTABLISHED. How can one accept there is 69 weeks of years between the going forth of the commandment to restore Israel, and the Messiah's Appearence, but then deny there is a 1290 Day Split between the Daniel 12:11 Events? "

First of all, I do not believe restoring and building are two events in the same sense that the stopping of the daily sacrifices and placing the abominaiton are two events. In the former both are complimentory. That is to say, restoring a city means to rebuild it. But the latter are very obviously two very separate events. Therefore, no, I do not see the connection. Secondly, sentence structure apart from context does not, in my view, prove anything. Surely you aren't suggesting that every passage that has the same sentence structure means the same thing.

While we're on the subject of the alleged time gap between the ceasing of the sacrifices and the abomination, I would like us to go right to the verse that speak of both in the same verse, Dan. 9:27, "....in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abomination........". We are specifically told that both will happen in the midst of the week. I really don't understand how you came to a different conclusion.

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Joyce said:
Hi Josh,

As I understand it you believe that the abomination is the tent of the antichrist which will be set up at the end of his reign in the temple. May I explain why I can not agree.

First of all, the Hebrew word translated "abomination" is used 27 times in the OT and is always or most of the time (I did not look up all 27 occurrences) used of an idol. Therefore, I believe that we must have very strong scriptural evidence to conclude that the abomination that the antichrist will set up is something other than what the word is usually used for, i.e. an idol.

Secondly, we must understand the Hebrew and Greek words translated "holy". The Hebrew word is "kohdesh". Let me give you an idea how it is used by the Holy Spirit. The first occurrence is in Ex. 3:5, "...the place wherein thou standest is holy". What does that mean? It means that that ground is separated unto God. The second occurrence is in Ex. 12:16, "the first day there shall be an holy convocation". What does that mean? It means that the first day shall be separated unto God. We read in Ex. 22:31, "ye shall be holy unto Me". Israel was separated from all nations unto God. Ex. 28:2, "thou shalt make holy garments". Those garments were to be separated unto God. Ex. 28:6, "put the holy crown upon the mitre". The crown was separated unto God. My point is that the Hebrew word translated "holy" in Dan. 11:45 means "separated", nothing less and nothing more. And the Greek word translated "holy" means, as one would expect, the same thing. If you would like proof of that please let me know. The Hebrew word used in Lev. 6:16 is the adjectiveal form. It is used of Israel, of water etc.

In other words, the word "holy" does not tell us what is holy, it tells us only that it is separated unto God. To find out what is separated, we must consider the context. Having said that let's return to Daniel 11:45 to determine where the antichrist will "plant the tabernacle". That verse reads, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain....". There's only one holy (separated unto God) mountain mentioned in God's Word, it is of course, Zion, just outside Jerusalem. The temple will be, of course, in the city of Jerusalem. Therefore, the antichrist will not place his tabernacles in the temple. so this line of thought, at least, does not prove a period of time between the ending of the sacrifice and the placing of the abomination.

You suggested that the phrase Dan. 12:1, "at that time" refers to the time when the antichrist will set up his tabernacle. But verse 2 reads, "And (note that verse 2 is connected by the word "and" to verse 1) many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake....". This is obviously the resurrection. The resurrection is, I hope you agree, is at the second coming of Christ, which is certainly not during the reign of the antichrist. Therefore, I believe that the phrase "at that time" refers to the end times, which is the subject of Dan. chapters 8-12.

I puzzled over this statement for quite a while. You wrote, "When you read the following verse, play close attention to the sentence structure.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that FROM the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, unto the Mesiah the prince, THERE SHALL BE SEVEN WEEKS, AND THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS....
CAN YOU ESTABLISH THE CONTINUITY OF THE SENTENCE STRUCTURE IN BOTH OF THESE PASSAGES??
BOTH PASSAGES FIRST LIST THE TWO EVENTS. AFTER THE TWO EVENTS THE TIME SPLITE BETWEEN SAID EVENTS IS THEN ESTABLISHED. How can one accept there is 69 weeks of years between the going forth of the commandment to restore Israel, and the Messiah's Appearence, but then deny there is a 1290 Day Split between the Daniel 12:11 Events? "

First of all, I do not believe restoring and building are two events in the same sense that the stopping of the daily sacrifices and placing the abominaiton are two events. In the former both are complimentory. That is to say, restoring a city means to rebuild it. But the latter are very obviously two very separate events. Therefore, no, I do not see the connection. Secondly, sentence structure apart from context does not, in my view, prove anything. Surely you aren't suggesting that every passage that has the same sentence structure means the same thing.

While we're on the subject of the alleged time gap between the ceasing of the sacrifices and the abomination, I would like us to go right to the verse that speak of both in the same verse, Dan. 9:27, "....in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abomination........". We are specifically told that both will happen in the midst of the week. I really don't understand how you came to a different conclusion.

In Christ,

Joyce
Click to expand...
Hello again Joyce.....
  • Here we go again!!! You stated...
  • You think I believe that the abomination is the tent of the Antichrist, Which will be "set up" at the end of His reign in the temple. Nothing could be farther from the truth. PLease put meaning behind my Words. I stated, that I believe the abomination of Desolation, is not only a single act, but a continuious "action" or event that lasts the entire span of the reign of the antichrist. I never stated that the "planting of the tabernacles of His palace occurs at the end of His reign, nor did I state that it was set up IN the temple. I supplied you with scripure, clear scripture that shows very clear evidence that the "Holy place" is much more than Just the "holy of Holies. Instead of discerning this, you went into an explanation of what the term "holy" means". Does this change what is being discussed here? I then compared how Daniel 11:45-12:1 is the very same event of Matthew 24: 15-21, which I guess you decided to overlook? Why??
  • Sister, I still think you may have some "preconcieved" Ideas blurring your understanding as to what I am trying to explain. Your responses reveal this. For instance you write...
  • In the midst of the week, he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and FOR the overspreading of abomination...... You then state, "We are speciflly told that both of these events occur in the Midst of the week, I really don't understand how you came to a different conclusion..."
This is a simple one, and I begiin with a question.. ARE we told that both of these events occur in the midst of the week?? If so, can you please provide scripture to prove this. The only thing Daniel 9:27 states is, "FOR" the overspreading of abominations, the sacrifices are taken away. Does this clearly establish that both events occur at the same time?? To the contrary.. The only thing this event establishes, is, The stopping of the sacrifices, brings on the second event, the abomination. One can only ASSUME that both events occur simultaineously, but there is no scriptural evidence anywhere in God's Word to establish this. The fist event Causes the second, but it doesn'r necessarily mean they occur "simultaineously." You see, this is one of those "assumed truths" we have embraced for so Long, It is nearly impossable for us to see things any other way!!! This is how I came to a different conclusion. I think it takes a greater leap of faith to believe that the events occur at the same time, than what is being stated. The first event does cause the second, They are connected, but not simultaineous. If we take this passage in its entirety, it reads, "And FOR the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (even) UNTO THE CONSUMATION (OR END) and that determined (at the end) shall be poured out on the desolate."You see, this passage of scripture also seperates both events!!!
  • You state that "Mt zion" is outside jerusalem... Scripture please... Here is one
Lets take the Lord's identification of what mount Zion is...
Zec 8:3 Thus saith the Lord God I am returned unto Zion, and WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSDALEM, And Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth, and the mountain of the Lord of Hosts, THE HOLY MONTAIN
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  • you state that the "glorious holy Mountain is "mt. Zion" Outside Of Jerusalem, the Lord says different!!
The glorious Holy mountain spoken of in daniel is the Temple mount, no more, no less, If you want to disagree, take it up with the Lord, these are His words, not mine!!! More later....God bless!!
 
Dear Josh,

I have made a clear cut rule for myself. When discussion starts to turn ugly, I bow out. Your message is starting to get there, I'm bowing out.

In Christ,

Joyce
 
Joyce said:
Dear Josh,

I have made a clear cut rule for myself. When discussion starts to turn ugly, I bow out. Your message is starting to get there, I'm bowing out.

In Christ,

Joyce
Click to expand...
Well, my apolagies If you think what I shared was "ugly", wasn't meant to be!!! I guess we are Just both Looking up that Prophecy mountian from Different sides, and have drawn different conclusions. I find it somewhat amazing though... The Lord stated that the closer we get to His return, the more we would know, and the more would be revealed. We are all seeing through the glass darkly Now, and will not have complete KLnkowledge of things till Christ comes!! May the Lord bless you on your Journey, and If you can remember One word about end time events, Its "Duplication"!
 
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