Hi Josh,
Thank you again for your kind response. And I will comment on it to the best of my ability as well.
I am going to address your comments out of the order in which you gave them, because I may now understand the crux of our disagreement.
You wrote, "Up till now we have only witnessed the first 3 1/2 years of the time of Jacob's trouble!! If this is accepted AS the day of the Lord, What must also be percieved to be fulfilled? ". As I understand it, you are assuming that everything that is written after Rev. 6 12-17 which speaks of the events revealed when the sixth seal is opened will occur in the day of God's wrath. Assuming that I am understanding you correctly let me comment on that.
Dr. E.W. Bullinger suggests that everything that occurs when the 7th seal is opened, which includes all the vials and all the trumpets etc. up until the coming of the Lord is a fuller explanation of what will occur under the fifth and sixth seals. Yes, I can already hear a loud cry of rejection-ha. But let me tell you why I believe that it is a very good suggestion.
We read in Rev. 6:12-4 that under the sixth seal "heaven departed as a scroll when it rolled together". And that "the stars of heaven fell" and "the sun became black and the moon became as blood". Now let's look at Rev. 8:12 which speaks of events revealed under the 7th seal. We read that "the third part of the sun and moon.......was darkened". But under the sixth seal we read that the sun "became black" and the moon "became as blood", i.e. literally, darkened. If the sun and the moon were darkened under the sixth seal how could only a third of them be darkened afterwards? I believe it is obvious that they can't be. Therefore, I agree with the suggetion that the seventh seal is a more complete explanation of previous seals.
And that eliminates the assumption of the seventh seal revealing the event of the day of God's wrath.
Now let me go to the other comments.
I'm sorry I don't understand your point about John being told to prophecy. I would appreciate a clarification. Thank you.
You wrote, "The true seventieth week of Daniel, the Time of Jacob's trouble consists of 3 1/2 years of "birthpains" (wars and rumors of wars) in the first half, Followed by the 42 month reign of the false Messiah, in the second half. At the end of His 42 month reign, His real identity is made known.(II Thess, 2:3) This is also the end of the 70th week".. I agree 100% with that.
But then you wrote, "This is also when the abomination of desolation occurs 1290 days after the stopping of the sacrifices (Daniel 12:11) ....... (matthew 24:29)".
Let me comment on your explanation of the 1, 290 days you gave in your seocnd message. You wrote, "concerning the 1290 days, and what appears to be a 30 day, or one month descepancy, one only needs to understand the Jewish calendar. Normally 1260 days would cover a "42" month period of time, However, every sixth year the jewish calendar, would have what is called a "pregnant year". To make up the extra 5 days per year they would loose do to them operating on a 30 day month. It is still technically considered 42 months. The false messiah's reign will occur, according to the Jewish calendar, when "a pregnant month" is present".
In a different thread you agreed that we must not go to man's writings to interpret scriputre, i.e. that we must always interpet scripture with scripture. There is absolutely nothing in God's Word that tells us that the years of the reign of the antichrist will be a "pregnant year". Also, it is my understanding that it is not every sixth year, as you suggest, but every 17 years that the adjustment is made. But again, this is not revealed, as far as I know in the Bible, and just like today's newspapers, should not, in my opinion, be used in the interpretation of God's prophecy. The Bible should be interpreted by what is written in the Bible.
Then you wrote, "Blessed is he that comes to the 1335th day", reveals a 45 day period After the time of Jacob's trouble. A special blessing Is proclaimed on those who make it through this time period, for I believe it is in this time period the wrath of God is poured out. (mankind won't survive too Long considering all the water is Poisoned).".
But Jacob's trouble is only 1,260 days, so where did the extra 45 days come from? Let me say something about the "wrath of God". I shared in the beginning of this message my reasons for believing that the 7th seal does not reveal events that will occur after those of the 6th seal, but it reveals a fuller explanation of the events revealed under previous seals. So I will ask you to re-consider the lenght of time of God's wrath. We read in Rev. 18 of the destruction of Babylon which will take place in the time of God's wrath. We are told several times that it will be "in one hour". Therefore, there is scriptural evidence to conclude that the day of God's wrath will be anything like 45 days.
Also, we are told any number of times that those who make it through the 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation will receive the special blessing of reigning with Christ. I do not know of any verse that tells us of a special blessing for those who make it another 45 days, do you?
That being the case, I believe that Dan. 12:11 speaks of the time between the taking away of the daily sacrifice and the placing of the abomination (the same time) and "the time of the end" of verse 9. So I repeat, there is no time between the placing of the abomination and the ending of the sacrifice, i.e. they both occur at the middle of the 70th week.
On the subject of the ending of the sacrifice, you wrote, "Amos 5:20 reveals God's heart attitude toward the restarting of the regular sacrifices. This will be nothing but a total rejection of HIS provisional sacrifice which HE gave in His son Jesus".
It is widely accepted that the Jews have been and will be wrong in continuing the sacrifices because Christ's sacrifice was all suficient for the sins of man. There is no question that Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient. But even though that is true, that does not mean that Israel should never again offer sacrifies. God's ways are not our ways.
Please consider Is. 56:6-8, "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant; even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon Mine altar; for Mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. The Lord Which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, 'Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him'".
To what time period does this passage refer? I believe the clue is found in the phrase, "The Lord Which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, 'Yet will I gather others". Is this gathering of Israel after the 70 year captivity or is it the gathering for the millennium? In order to answer that question we must determine who are the "others" referred to in this passage. Given that it speaks of the gathering of Israel and "others", I believe we must conclude that the "others" are Gentiles. There is nothing in the Word of God that tells us that Gentiles were gathered for the return to Jerusalem after the 70 year captivity, but there is Scriptural evidence that Gentiles will be gathered for the millennial reign.
Is. 49:22 also tells of the gathering of Gentiles for the millennial reign. "See I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up My banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens you nursing mothers. They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground; they will lick the dust at your feet. Then you will know that I am the Lord".
Is. 56:6-8 will be fulfilled in the millennium. And we read in this millennial passage "their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon Mine altar". Therefore, I believe that in spite of the fact that Christ's sacrifice was certainly sufficient, we must not assume that God has put away the Mosaic Law, including the sacrifices. His ways are not our ways. Please, please see also Ezek. 36:27, Ezek. 43:19-21, 25 and 27, 44:10-11, 45:17, Zech. 14:21 and Mal. 3:2-4,. These are also millennial prophecies that speak of animal sacrifices called for by God in the millennium. If you require more proof that believing Israel was still to offer sacrifices even after Christ's death on the cross, please let me know and I will be happy to provide more scriptural evidence from the NT.
Because the sacrifices will be instituted by God in the millennium, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion that "The sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week (by God) using the hand of this army".
Then you wrote, "Now, there is a dual reason WHY this event is occuring. We read in Ezekiel 38:16 " I will bring thee against my land so the HEATHEN may know me." This is the climax of the "birthpains". I believe that the first 16 verses of Ezek. 38 are post-millennial. They are spoken of Rev, 20:7-9. I don't really see how this impacts our question so I will save the scriptural proof of that and will share it if you feel it is germaine.
I agree with your paragraph that states that the first 14 verses of Matt. 24 is the first half of the 70th week, i.e. the bith pains. But I don't see how that proves that those seen when the sixth seal is opened are those martyrs. As I mentioned in my last message, we are specifically told that those revealed when the sixth seal is opened are those in white robes, and those in whtie robes are the martyrs of the tribulaion, which is the second half of the 70th week.
Let me quote what you wrote about that in your second message and comment on it here. You wrote, "you conclude that those in the white robes come out "the great tribultaion period" is that what the word states?? The true wording is "these are they that came out of "great tribulation". This is not referring to a specific time frame, but a condition. If one had to be killed for there testimony, wouldn't you consider that great trouble?
According to the NIV Greek Interlinear that verse reads literally, "these are the ones coming out of the affliction, the great....". ( I don't understand why they translated as "affliction: because it is the same Greek word used in Matt. 24:21 which obviously refers to the great tribulation.) In Greek the definite article "the" limits what it it modifies. In this case the "the" limits the tribulaiton to the great tribulation. In fact the definite article is also used before the word "great", once again limiting it. So the Greek makes it very clear that it is the great tribulation that is the subject of Rev. 7:14, not an indefinite period of trouble.
You wrote of, "the blood red moon event, all occiuring in the Midst of the week when the sacrifices are stopped)...." Let me share with you the reasons I do not agree that the "blood red moon event" is a different event than the sun and moon being darkened.
1) Joel does not say that the moon will be "blood red", he wrote that the moon shall be "turned into blood" (Joel 2:31). And Rev. 6:12 also does not say that the moon will be "blood red", it says that "the moon became as blood". In point of fact, the phrase "became as" tells us quite specifically that it is a metaphor. Because it is a metaphor it must be the same event as the sun and moon being darkened.
2) Also, unless you believe that the moon will literally be turned into blood, we must conclude that it is a figure of speech. If it is a figure of speech it enhances the truth that the moon will be darkened, which is what we are told in a number of passages will happen at the end of the week, not in the midst of it.
3) The opening of the fifth seal reveals tribulation martyrs (which is proved by the Greek) in white robes. Birth pains martyrs do not have white robes. Therefore, the opening of the sixth seal reveals what comes after the end of the tribulation, not before it. Again, the Greek does not allow the interpretation that those in the whtie robes seen when the 5th seal was opened are martyrs of anything but the great tribulation.
I will comment on this same subject that you wrote about in your second message. You wrote, "We can establish when the sun and moon are darkened, by association with another event. Read Joel 3:13. it states "put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. this 'reaping" occurs when the sun and moon are darkened, correct? (vs. 15) Although we don't specificlly see the sun and moon darkened in Revelation, what we do see is when the reaping from the sickle does occur, subsequently, when the sun and moon are darkened!!!! This event occurs in Revelation 14:15-20. This reaping prepares the World to face the vials of the wrath of God. This is when the sun and moon are darkened... The blood red moon event, occurs much much earlier in the order of events according to revelation".
I will tell you that I have read this about 8 times, and I am still not sure I understand where you're coming from. Sorry to be so slow. I need to ask a few questions which may help me.
You wrote that "This reaping prepares the World to face the vials of the wrath of God". I don't see that. How is reaping a preparation? And who reaps what? But let me go to the question of when this reaping will take place.
I will have to leave it at that, because I don't think I really understand your point yet. I'm very sorry.
Now to your second message.
You wrote, "You have concluded because the wording is somewhat the same, the event is the same, But is the wording actually the same?? Look at it again... concering the time of Jacob's trouble, it is stated, "alas for that day is great, so that none is like it." all this is stating, is that up till this event happens, there hasn't been anything like it."
Let's take a yet closer look at Jer. 30:7. The phrase under discussion is "so that none is like it". To begin with, the verb "is" is not in the Hebrew, so it should read, "so that none like it". So it is not, as you suggest, limited to the past.The Holy Spirit is saying through Jeremiah that Jacob's trouble is so great that there is none like it. If it was limited to the past it would have to say, "there has not been anything like it". But because the verb is not given in the Hebrew, we cannot say that the phrase is limited to the past. Therefore, because logic will not allow for there to be two different events that will be the worst, I believe that Jacob's trouble is the same as the great tribulation.
I look forward again to your response.
In Christ,
Joyce
