Ezekiel

[JudaicChristian]

My genealogies are from the bible and covenantal.

So, according to what you are saying, what kind of genealogy is that? An endless one or a foolish one?

How about the book of Genesis? What kind of genealogy is that? An endless one or a foolish one?

How about the beginning of the book of Chronicles. What kind of genealogy is that? An endless one or a foolish one?

The book of Matthew and New Testament starts with a genealogy. So what kind of genealogy is that? And endless one or a foolish one?

I find these verses are quoted by those who want to dodge the genealogy issue and proofs they give lest it shows something they don't want to see.

Some folks have Paul saying "Avoid all genealogies, which all are endless and foolish". But that's not what he said. He said to avoid endless (tiring) and foolish ones.

Suppose there were cars in Paul's time. Paul could have said to Timothy, avoid clunker cars, for that is not profitable to transport you to preach the gospel. Does that mean Timothy should not drive a car because they are all clunkers? Or is that the type of car he should not use?

Let's not read more into passages than what they are saying. But then again, if a passage clearly says something such as Ephraim shall become a multitude of nations, or I, the Lord will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, etc. etc, then by gads that's what it means, and there is no reason to song and dance around it.

There seems to be no end to those who promote their genealogy as being the Elect. Is God a respecter of persons? Other peoples came out of Egypt with the Hebrews and Moses, and they became the nation of Israel, and the faithful of Judah, the Jews.

 

[Sinthesis]

[

Lot of believers don't care about God's Promises, especially His promises to Israel.

You should know that Jesus made it very clear that if you are not obedient to Jesus, you are not Abraham's descendants. In other words, Jesus only cares about your spiritual condition.

Very good. Now see if you can reconcile the above idea with your other two observations about Christ's promise of peace.

So are you saying we have peaceful Christian society and the world like Ezekiel describes? Not!

Jesus bring literal peace, not imaginary peace. Are you happy with this earth filled with hatred and wars? Not me. I am looking forward to Jesus' return!!! Come Lord Jesus!!!

 

[Sinthesis]

More foolishness. Your ten lost tribes were Hebrews. Western Civilization is primarily Gentile, but grafted into the People of God on an individual basis.

Not to derail anything, but since Ezekiel is talking to the house of Israel, the ten tribes are relevant. I understand that not everyone believes in the origins of the Western nations, but it does answer my questions, for I have yet for anyone to adequately explain to me (apart from the Western nations) then what Genesis 35:11 and Genesis 48:19 really means. All I hear is song and dancing around those verses like they are unimportant. Well then, maybe the Messianic promises don't mean much either since they were included with the promise of many nations and great population size of Israel. If God reneged on the promise that his people would be a light to the nations (as opposed to non-Israelite Gentiles supposedly fulfilling that role today), then Messianic promises go out the window by default. I don't know about anyone else here, but that severely bothers me. I don't believe in an anemic God. He keeps His promises.

God has kept His promises.

Gen 35:11 was fulfilled by the united and split kingdoms.
Gen 48:19 was fulfilled through the Northern Kingdom in the split after the death of Solomon. Think of Ephraim's blessing as a parallel to Ishmael's blessing of Gen 17:20.

 

[tim-from-pa]

God has kept His promises.

Gen 35:11 was fulfilled by the united and split kingdoms.
Gen 48:19 was fulfilled through the Northern Kingdom in the split after the death of Solomon. Think of Ephraim's blessing as a parallel to Ishmael's blessing of Gen 17:20.

Well, if that suits you, then fine. It doesn't me as I see that rather anemic. In addition, the whole of the fate of the house of Israel does not rest on these two verses, but many others in Isaiah, Hosea and other passages of Genesis to name a few. For example, they were to spread in all directions. These people were to inherit the earth, they were to control the gates of their enemies, they were to be a large population size. They were to be known as "sons of the living God" (one can look to John for that definition), etc. etc. None of these descriptions fit the Jews.

Sorry, many tribes or many people in tribes in a crowded little spot of land on this earth hardly fits the bill, nor does it constitute a multitude of nations. If that's the best God can do, then an atheist has nothing to fear from Him. I doubt he'd have the power to send anyone to hell if that's the best he can do (and this is why Thomas Payne lost his faith because he knew that God did not keep His promises to the Jews---- so it did not cut muster with him, either. If only he knew back then true Israel)

 

[shad]

[
Very good. Now see if you can reconcile the above idea with your other two observations about Christ's promise of peace.

Of course it does. Are you Jesus' follower? Why cann't you trust the bible?. Ezekiel and other prophets prophesied about Jesus bringing peace.

 

[shad]

There seems to be no end to those who promote their genealogy as being the Elect.

I dont believe elect are genealogy, they are faithful Christians.

In any case, we dont know who is right until Jesus returns.

 

[saintjim]

Its preposterous to assume that God is through with the Jewish people and his promises to them under replacement theology pretence of being one of His tribes - ie Ephraim / british Israelism etc
It takes willful ignorance to misapply the Israel covenants and prophecies with a slap to God's face because of all He has done for the gentiles-- its not enough to live and reign with Him?
I suspect the proponents of such are not born again but are Biblically lazy and will end up in the ditch like many other pseudo believers as Christ mentioned:D
sj

 

[shad]

Its preposterous to assume that God is through with the Jewish people and his promises to them under replacement theology pretence of being one of His tribes - ie Ephraim / british Israelism etc
It takes willful ignorance to misapply the Israel covenants and prophecies with a slap to God's face because of all He has done for the gentiles-- its not enough to live and reign with Him?
I suspect the proponents of such are not born again but are Biblically lazy and will end up in the ditch like many other pseudo believers as Christ mentioned:D
sj

It seems that you too dismissing Jesus' corrections of Jewish misunderstandings.

 

[veteran]

Shad, Christ is The Root which all branches are to be attached. Paul made a distinction in Rom.11 that believing Israel is brought back into their 'own' branch. Now if Paul believed that in Christ there's no more such thing as a flesh Israelite receiving the original promises and covenants, then why did he show that? And further, why did God promise to save a remnant of Israel to Himself, even in Elijah's days? (Rom.11:1-5).

Both believing Israel and Gentiles are to be one in Christ Jesus, but that doesn't mean God's promises to Israel went away, and that's what many today are trying to tear down. It won't work, because God was specific in the OT prophets that He's going to gather both houses of Israel back to the land for His Salvation. Just because many Churches today wherein are many Gentiles won't cover those prophecies does not mean they're justified in creating a whole new theology which goes against what God promised about the restoration of Israel under our Lord Christ Jesus.

 

[shad]

Veteran,

I believe you are mistaking about Paul's explanation. Jesus was very clear about obedience. God promises are all conditional; obedience is the condition.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Veteran,

I believe you are mistaking about Paul's explanation. Jesus was very clear about obedience. God promises are all conditional; obedience is the condition.

Actually, that's only partly true. If we are talking about the covenant under Moses, the benefits were contingent on their obedience. But when we are talking about the other covenants such as the Abrahamic or Davidic, those were unconditional. I could expand for hours why that is, but I'll make it simple by one example. If the promises to Abraham's seed were contingent on their behavior, we'd have no Messiah today considering that the lineage of the Kings were corrupt--- therefore God could have taken the promises away which included Christ because they misbehaved and had no faith. The promise of Messiah came by faith, i.e. the faith of Abraham (his faith) would make it come to pass whether all his kids were good or not. The issue is not the offspring receiving it, but those of faith, i.e. the fathers such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In other words, God promised them many good things because they believed God. Now how would they take it if God promised the fathers these blessings, and then reneged on it because their kids misbehaved? That would be a two-faced God--- Satan would promise things like that, but not God.

God punished their kids for a season, but never, ever took away the promises to Israel. (c.f. Lev26:40-45).

Again, I think as most mainline teachings misconstrue "chosen". There are chosen of race (family) and there's chosen of grace. Apparently, the latter is being confused with the former, which were the covenants to Israel. It is possible to be chosen of God, blessed by God, given all the Abrahamic Blessings, and Kings with all their splendor reign from Israel, and still be a child of hell, but chosen nonetheless. Then, there's chosen of grace, i.e. whosoever will come and drink of the water freely. These are two different animals, but the purpose of God worked through each mutually so that one affects the other in His plan.

Biblical theology became too "Gentilized" and people do not realize that most of the Bible is a book about Israel--- they lost their roots and "another" people overtook it.

 

[shad]

Actually, that's only partly true.

We will see who is right very soon when Jesus comes back.

 

[veteran]

I think tim put it very well; don't think I could present it that well. What it's really pointing to, is the idea of an election by God Himself. In John 17, our Lord Jesus said a prayer to The Father concerning a chosen election whom The Father gave to Christ before the foundation of the world. He said they were not of this world, even as He was not of this world. Our Lord said even as The Father sent Him into the world, so also these (Apostles) were sent into the world. To be an Apostle means to be 'a sent one'.

John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

God did not just make a roulette turn and throw out His Plan of Salvation using chance cause and effect. He ordained His elect for service in The Gospel for us, for our benefit. He sanctified and glorfied them already, as Apostle Paul shows in Romans 8, predestinated them for service. These were chosen to take The Gospel forth, so that others who believe as they through their preaching might all become one in Christ Jesus.

Apostle Paul is one of the best Biblical examples of a chosen elect, because until he was called by Christ into service, he was persecuting the Church instead. Christ converted Paul on the road to Damascus by divine intervention, which is a mark of a chosen elect. If what Saul (Paul) was doing before our Lord converted him is an example of what an elect can be found doing until called into service, then how can we judge God's choice? It is the works afterward which we should recognize, and that's why Apostle Paul began to be accepted because of God's works through him. Like our Lord said, many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[shad]

We shall see.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Yes, thanks Veteran, that's from years of studying about the covenants. The reason many do not know about it is because the shepherds do not know about it, nor teach it. Folks therefore only see one side of the coin on the ground, and because it comes up heads they don't see there's a tails. But when many are only playing with half a deck, the results do not work out right and there is confusion.

I do wish people would come out of their own world and admit there may be more to these things than they think instead of trying to defend something that's only part of the picture. I know I did when confronted with truth. And not only with this subject, but others I learned as well. I find it's amazing that some will debate one's area of expertise when they did no 5 minutes of detailed study themselves. Not saying this to be offensive, but to point out that it's like a kid who understands basic math telling a calculus professor that his theorems are wrong because he never heard of them! It's a tad frustrating. 2

 

[shad]

I find it's amazing that some will debate one's area of expertise when they did no 5 minutes of detailed study themselves.

Don't belittle others who dont agree with you.

 

[Sinthesis]

[
Very good. Now see if you can reconcile the above idea with your other two observations about Christ's promise of peace.

Of course it does. Are you Jesus' follower? Why cann't you trust the bible?. Ezekiel and other prophets prophesied about Jesus bringing peace.

I am a Christian, and I do trust the Bible. I do not trust your ability to discern the meaning of prophecy. It took real peace for the martyrs to stand for Christ. Peace contingent on Jesus violently dispatching all opposed to Him is eerily close to the Muslim definition of peace.

I'm sorry Jesus has not brought you peace. :gah

 

[tim-from-pa]

Shad:

That's right, I should not belittle. That's because I take in extra meat (doctrine). I'm not really disagreeing with many of them (as I'm not solely directing this at you), but they disagree with me. I believe more and they believe less. As Paul has stated:

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.


So, from this passage I will try not to "despise" anyone who is obviously judging me. But in fairness to myself, I really do believe the former comes as a reaction to the latter which I endured for years. This particular thread is not so bad, but I had myself banned from other Christian forums because of what I believe, thus the reason I claimed I'm being judged. So my analogy, thank you, is quite fitting. It's time to stand up despite the judgments.

I have yet for anyone to explain the promises to Abraham other than how the likes of Veteran and I say, other than the feeble attempts in the posts above. But these are the core and foundational promises of the bible. To miss this is like playing chess without understanding the goal is to capture the King (people are just jumping pieces instead).

I said enough and made my case. And the book in my signature below says it all, if people would just take the time to read it.

 

[shad]

Shad:

That's right, I should not belittle. That's because I take in extra meat (doctrine).

What makes you think you are studying more than them and your opponents are in the wrong? You don't know who is in line with God until Jesus judges. You are not the judge.

 

[shad]

I'm sorry Jesus has not brought you peace. :gah

Are you pro-military? Why do you have to kill you enemy to have peace? I dont think you have Jesus' peace as long as you have hateful attitude against your enemy. Christians should be consistent in everything they practice and support.

Christianity is all about way of life. We should walk the walk, not talk the talk. Talk is cheap. Jesus is not cheap.