F.U.D.(Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)

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Do you think you can lose your salvation?

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JM

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Can you lose your salvation?

No. Jesus keeps us, how else could a sinnful creature be saved? We sin by the minute, that does not mean we lose and gain our salvation by the minute.

Many teach F.U.D. (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) today but is it found in the Bible?
____________________________________________________
Quote found on http://www.dyeager.org/fud/losesal.php

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. (2 Peter 2:20-21)

Whoops! What does this mean? Is my salvation in question? Many today teach such doctrine. But is it true? On the face of it, it would appear so. In looking at these passages, we must look at the whole counsel of God, not just these two, in order to make our case.

Let's deal with the passage in Peter first. To take just these verses is a critical mistake. Chapter two starts out with a warning about false teachers, with the thought continuing throughout the chapter. They are "wells without water" (17) "for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever" (17). And when we arrive at verse 20, the subject is still false prophets. It is not about Christians, it is a warning for Christians. But notice the wording of Peter, he uses the phrase "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". Does this imply they were saved? Hardly. James gives us a commentary on what knowledge is good for in terms of salvation.

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe; and tremble! (James 2:19)
Are the demons saved by their knowledge? I don't think so. Knowledge does not imply salvation! There is an important distinction between the two. The passage in Peter is talking about false prophets who were never saved in the first place, it does not, can not, apply to Christians.

But the passage in Hebrews is not so simple. "enlightened" means to make see, and both enlightened and illuminated are born-again references[2]. But it gets worse. "tasted" is a word implying a total experience[3]. Thus, the people referred to in this verse are believers!

Yikes! Does this means a Christian can lose their salvation (many take that view)? But what can they not be renewed to, salvation? NO! The word used here is repentance. We equate repentance with salvation, but that's not necessarily so. To fully understand this, we look to another passage in Hebrews and a few other of Paul's writings. (As a side note, we will see a similarity of phrases, which hints of Paul's authorship of Hebrews).

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)

Paul was always concerned with his running a race. He did not fear losing his salvation, but being unfruitful. He exhorts us to lay aside any weight hindering us, and run with endurance the race before us. As Christians, it's important to remember the kind of race it is. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. That's the reason we need endurance. But Paul brings out similar ideas in his other writings.

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

It's clear here Paul is talking of rewards, not salvation. Even if a person loses all their rewards by living a carnal and unfruitful life, they are still saved. But this race theme echoes in his writings

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. (1 Corinthians 9:24)
Paul's first focus was always heavenly, not earthly. It's sad today we frequently lose this focus. But still, the issue is the jeopardy of heavenly rewards, not salvation. Paul makes the distinction between the two clear. Thus, the conclusion about the passage in Hebrews is the following:

The primary reference of this passage is to Jewish believers in the sense of them being called out of Judaism. Thus, this is NOT a Salvation passage. It is talking of the fruits, the making of our lives into useful ministries. … Those who have lost their first love (Revelation 2). As we emphasize the idea that Jesus did the whole deal, we run the risk of sitting back on our security and not recognizing that we are in a race. Paul was preoccupied with this idea of being in a race. Only Christians are in this race, Paul was not running a race with sinners. Paul's fear was not that he would lose his salvation, but that he would have an unproductive life and have his witness curtailed.[4]

Now that we have dealt with two troublesome passages, finding out what they don't mean, you may ask is there any evidence we can't lose our salvation? Certainly.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

Notice the explicit phrase here, "they shall never perish". If you could lose your salvation, you would perish, and Jesus would be a liar, thus it must not be possible. But also notice there are two hands here, the Father and the Son. The picture is of one hand over the other, a complete enclosure, so that "no one is able to snatch them out". That's comforting, because I'm a man, and if no one can snatch them out, I can't snatch myself out.

But there's a problem, you may say. Can't I walk away? I don't think so. Later Jesus, just before his betrayal, had this to say in his prayer to the Father.

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)
It's not up to us to maintain our salvation. Jesus does all the work. Whose job is it to keep the sheep? Certainly not the sheep, they are too stupid. It's the shepherd's job to keep the sheep. And one of Jesus' seven "I AM" statements in John is "I AM the good shepherd" (John 10:11). If Jesus is the shepherd, he isn't going to lose any sheep. By myself, I'm sure I could screw it up, but fortunately, it's not my job.

But there are several other considerations to think of. Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by faith, not by works. In fact, even the faith to believe is a gift from God! Logically, if I didn't do anything to obtain salvation, can I do anything to lose it? I don't think so. If God chose us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), will he unchoose us later? That would imply he can change, and God does not change (Hebrews 13:8 ). Thus if you are chosen, you will remain so. This idea of being chosen disturbs many people, for they think "what if I haven't been chosen, and I'm believing in vain". But anyone who comes to Jesus will be accepted (John 6:37 - Note: The free will vs. predestination arguments result from a lack of understating of physics and is too involved to be discussed here, just be assured if you come to Jesus, he will accept you and will not turn you away).

But Paul has another issue in Ephesians. In chapter 1 verses 13-14, he speaks of being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of promise. Now I may be strange, but if God seals something, I don't see how it could be unsealed. But Paul goes on to speak of the Holy Spirit as "the guarantee of our inheritance". The old King James uses the word "earnest", as we would use today in earnest money when purchasing a house. The earnest money means you are serious about the transaction. And God is serious about completing his transaction. We get this earnest "until the redemption of the purchased possession (Revelation 5), to the praise of His glory". What God starts, he finishes.

But some would call this whole idea of eternal security "cheap grace". If we don't do anything for it, somehow it lessens the whole thing. Totally wrong. Jesus made the supreme sacrifice, to call it cheap is to demean and belittle his whole experience. Paul, of course, in Romans deals with people who think grace means they can do anything they want.

But there is another issue that is disturbing, illustrated in the following two verses.

"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (Matthew 7:22)
First, it's clear these are heavy hitters. Casting out demons is nothing to take lightly. These people obviously are performing some miraculous things. But the disturbing idea is what comes next.

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:23)
The real problem is NOT can you lose your salvation (you can't), the real problem is, were you ever saved in the first place? This is perhaps a more disturbing question than losing your salvation. First off, we are not speaking of sincere doubts, we at some point all have those. Remember satan and his FUD campaign. Have you made a sincere prayer of commitment to Christ? If so, you don't have a problem. If not, do it now.

But after that, how can we be assured of salvation? The Bible speaks of several ways. First, it's important to realize we must NOT consider our feelings. They are easily manipulated by the enemy to deceive us. And if we have a great feeling, what happens when we don't have it? Are we unsaved until we get that feeling back? Hardly. It's simply that feelings are not a reliable assurance of our eternal security. We must trust in the Word of God.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. (1 John 5:9-10)
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)
Nowhere does it say anything about feelings. We are not to rely on them. But there are ways to be assured. Both Paul and John speak of this.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Romans 8:16-17)
What does this mean? How does His Spirit bear witness with our spirit? One way is simple, and often taken for granted. Do you believe the Bible? His Spirit wrote it. If you agree with it, your spirit and His are in agreement. This is not a minor point. Most people certainly don't believe the Bible is the very Word of God. It's just something we as Christians take for granted. But Paul says it's one way we can know we are children of God. Also in that great chapter we call Romans 8 is the following.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:14)
Have you ever been led by the Spirit? If so, Paul says it's because you are a son of God. In this great chapter are two ways we can be assured we are children of God. But John also speaks of the assurance of salvation in his letters.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. (1 John 3:24)
Do you keep his commandments? If you do, it's more evidence you are saved. Not that you have to be perfect, that is not John's point. But that we strive to always keep his commandments. And what are they? We don't have to guess, John tells us.

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)
There are two ideas. First, believe on Jesus Christ - John says the same thing as Paul in Romans 10:9. But he adds one other method for assurance of salvation - love one another. So here is another way to test your salvation - do you have love for the brethren? If we don't understand exactly what that might imply, John further amplifies this concept.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. (1 John 3:14)
And what kind of love is he talking about? The Greek word for love is agapao. Simply put, it means totally given over to or devoted. But you don't need to know Greek to understand this, as John explains.

But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3:17-18 )
We have several ways in the Bible to be assured of our salvation.

His spirit bearing witness with our spirit. (Romans 8:16-17). This occurs by the Word of God.
Being led by God (Romans 8:14)
Keeping God's commandments (1 John 3:23-24)
Love (agapao) for the brethren (1 John 3:14, 17-18 )
Unfortunately, we frequently rely on feelings and experiences, which not only are unreliable, but can easily be used by the enemy to deceive us. Satan himself can transform into an angel of light (2 Cor 11:13-14). We must anchor ourselves firmly to the rock of the Word of God.

In conclusion, it is not possible for a person to lose their salvation, for it's not theirs for the keeping, it's Jesus' responsibility. We contribute nothing. Secondly, we must run the race set before us with endurance. Thirdly, it is possible to have assurance of salvation. The Bible provides at least four different ways, but we must be careful not to rely on feelings or experiences, as they can deceive us.

Finally, think of Paul's final words to Timothy, just before his execution at the hands of the Romans.

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. (2 Timothy 4:7)
Good advice from a man who would know.
 
John here:
First, one needs to first be saved, huh?! Are you saved? What is your proof?
Just because one boasts that they are?? No you say, "Jesus keeps us".
Well then, why not me, or the new gay bishop, or the Rev. 18:4 'Partakers'?? And, on & on it goes.....!

Second, there IS a sin [not] unto death, and there IS A SIN UNTO DEATH!
1 Jn. 5:16-17. The sin not unto death, is just that! The early on testing. See James 1:15. And the sin UNTO DEATH is the FINISHED MATURITY of ones 'stubborn will'. Regardless of being a professed Christian or not. Gen. 4:7. And evil doctrines, homosexual sins or what have you is sin when OPENLY SEEN as such! (when one is convicted of it)

And Forum, who here is the guilty party (parties or denomination) as seen in Luke 12:47-48? Think about it, I AM TELLING THE WORLD THAT I AM SAVED, I AM SAVED!!??

So if this were the case, then Pope Paul 11 is corect also. While telling 'believers in voodoo that they would not betray their traditional faith by converting to Christianity.' If Jesus keeps Schofield, (I AM SAVED!) then why not 'believing' voodoos & Catholics & the new Episcopalian gay bishop?? No, homosexuality is sin, and when un/repented & forsaken it leads the individual into the SIN UNTO DEATH. (as will any known sin's MATURITY!) Christ is REJECTED in His Word's of Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9!

---John
******

Scofield said:
Can you lose your salvation?

No. Jesus keeps us, how else could a sinnful creature be saved? We sin by the minute, that does not mean we lose and gain our salvation by the minute.

(just a tad bit removed)
 
John

Perhaps you should read what he posted again, you have taken what he said and implyed to it meaning that is not there.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvatoin, we are saved by grace.

You want to say what about that gay preist or this sinner or that sinner, gee wizz what about you, certainly you have pleanty of sin that someone else could say look at that guy how can he be saved.

Salvatin is not what we do it is what he has done already.

Listen the bible says this, you how judge are guilty of the same things you judge others for.

So stop lookinf at men and start looking to God. Sheshhhhh
 
Henry said:
John

Perhaps you should read what he posted again, you have taken what he said and implyed to it meaning that is not there.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvatoin, we are saved by grace.

You want to say what about that gay preist or this sinner or that sinner, gee wizz what about you, certainly you have pleanty of sin that someone else could say look at that guy how can he be saved.

Salvatin is not what we do it is what he has done already.

Listen the bible says this, you how judge are guilty of the same things you judge others for.

So stop lookinf at men and start looking to God. Sheshhhhh

**********
Poster:
Are you saying that you believe that a person is Once Saved Always Saved? That IS the bottom line of a santanic doctrine! (Pay ATTENTION at the word doctrine!) I suspect that if your belief is such (which I never had suspected by reading your past posts) then you most likely see no bearing of Eze. 13:22-23 either!?

"Because with LIES ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and STRENGTHENETH the hands of the WICKED, [that he should not *RETURN* from his wicked way, [*BY PROMISING HIM LIFE*] ... I will deliver [*MY PEOPLE*] out of your hand: and ye shall [KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD]".

RETURN? FROM WHERE?? REMEMBER, THAT THESE ONES WERE *PROMISING THEM LIFE! THESE ARE PROFESSED CHRISTIANS AS IN THE LAMB OF GOD [LAMB OFFERING] OF THE OLD TESTAMENT! ALL WERE TO BE SAVED BY FAITH!! And Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 what DOES GOD AGAIN TELL US!

You can have communion with this stuff if you desire. But it is NOT FOR ME! Rev. 18:4 to 'me' is an eternal life or an eternal death decision, that
is for ALL SAVED ONES TO MAKE!!

---John
 
Scofield said:
Can you lose your salvation?

No. Jesus keeps us, how else could a sinnful creature be saved? We sin by the minute, that does not mean we lose and gain our salvation by the minute.

Many teach F.U.D. (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) today but is it found in the Bible?

What is strange about this "F.U.D." business is the assumption that those who do not believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved" proposition is the simple fact that we do not live in "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" as is claimed. If you were to ask me "are you assured of going to heaven," I would simply ask, it depends upon tense of your question. If you mean right now, then I can say yes, I am assured of heaven if I were to die this very instant. Why? Because I know I have no serious sins on my soul per 1 John 5:16-17. As I type this, my conscience is clear, and I know I am right with God. On the other hand, if this is a future tense, such as next week, or next month, there is no way I can say that I will not falter, commit a serious sin that is deadly which goes unrepentant and I will loose my quest for salvation if I were then to die.

Mr. Scofield presents a paper here from a link that attempts to prove otherwise, so let's see…

____________________________________________________

Quote found on http://www.dyeager.org/fud/losesal.php

This is the link provided, and the excerpt from it follows:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. (2 Peter 2:20-21)

This is two of the quotes I present to disprove OSAS, quotes that are quite powerful and tough ones to refute, so let's see how it is handled here:

Whoops! What does this mean? Is my salvation in question? Many today teach such doctrine. But is it true? On the face of it, it would appear so. In looking at these passages, we must look at the whole counsel of God, not just these two, in order to make our case.

Let's deal with the passage in Peter first. To take just these verses is a critical mistake. Chapter two starts out with a warning about false teachers, with the thought continuing throughout the chapter. They are "wells without water" (17) "for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever" (17). And when we arrive at verse 20, the subject is still false prophets. It is not about Christians, it is a warning for Christians. But notice the wording of Peter, he uses the phrase "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". Does this imply they were saved? Hardly. James gives us a commentary on what knowledge is good for in terms of salvation.

Let's first see what Peter actually said in verse 15, where my NAB says "Abandoning the straight road, they have gone astray, following the road of Balaam, the son of Bosor…" etc., would seem to indicate that at one time, they were on the straight road! And if they had "gone astray," there must have been a period of time when they were not astray, but again, traveling "on the straight road."

The author of this paper wants us to think these individuals were never saved, whereas, the evidence is clear in scripture that they most probably were, at least on that road to salvation to "being saved" (which we Catholics insist is the condition of all of us here on earth, we being actually saved at the judgment before God and thus won the victory of heaven through our faith and obedience to the ordinances of Jesus Christ.)

Now, let us also examine verse 20: "For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their condition is worse then their first." (Catholic NAB) And if we continue into verse 21, we read, "For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them."

How does one "escape the defilements of the world" if not to come to Jesus Christ in faith and obedience? Does this not also require "knowledge of our Lord" that we would be induced by His graces bestowed on us to come to Him for salvation? If they are not "saved," how did they escape the "defilements of the world"? Look at what verse 21 is saying; if we are ignorant of Christ and His gospel message, we are far less responsible for the consequences of leaving that truth, then never having known of it. Our guilt is based upon our knowledge, deep knowledge, of the truth and then ignoring it or especially, later on, turning our back on it.

The author utterly fails to make the case that such individuals were "false teachers" from the git go, that they were always in that condition, and that there was never a time that they were on the road to salvation. The text, in fact, tells us the direct opposite, that indeed, they were at one time, "saved" or that they had reacted favorably to the gospel message, later on to reject it.

I pray to God always that I will never revert back to a condition where by the proverb alluded to in verse 22 applies: …"The dog returns to its own vomit" and "A bathed sosw returns to wallowing in the mire."

The author then turned to James:

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe; and tremble! (James 2:19)

Are the demons saved by their knowledge? I don't think so. Knowledge does not imply salvation! There is an important distinction between the two. The passage in Peter is talking about false prophets who were never saved in the first place, it does not, can not, apply to Christians.

What James 2:19 does not say is, those same demons, in their condemnation, have ever been on the road to salvation, as in hell, there is no salvation! (I am speaking of what they can do when in hell, not what they could have done as living souls on earth, IF "demons here also mean the condemned souls in hell.) They certainly believe in the existence of God!

We Catholics understand this concept quite well, thank you very much! Such knowledge is not consent and love for God and neither is it a commitment to do God's will, but rather, a belief in the God against who they are revolting! The agony of knowing the existence of God, but are utterly compelled to hate and despise Him must be a pain that is indescribable!

The author now returns to the Hebrews 6:4-6 quote:

But the passage in Hebrews is not so simple. "enlightened" means to make see, and both enlightened and illuminated are born-again references[2]. But it gets worse. "tasted" is a word implying a total experience[3]. Thus, the people referred to in this verse are believers!

Yikes! Does this means a Christian can lose their salvation (many take that view)? But what can they not be renewed to, salvation? NO! The word used here is repentance. We equate repentance with salvation, but that's not necessarily so. To fully understand this, we look to another passage in Hebrews and a few other of Paul's writings. (As a side note, we will see a similarity of phrases, which hints of Paul's authorship of Hebrews).

OK, but so far, the author has dug himself a mighty big hole here, so let's see how he extricates himself here:

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)

Paul was always concerned with his running a race. He did not fear losing his salvation, but being unfruitful.

"Unfruitful"? Why would he fear even that if his salvation is so secure? Is it not just possible that being "unfruitful" could also include being totally and completely apostate from the faith? That is exactly the condition, Hebrews 6:4-6 is describing!

Interestingly, I often quote Hebrews 12:1 as the scriptural proof that salvation is not secure, but rather, we must always be on our guard. Satan does not cease to tempt us when we are "saved," Mr, Scofield! In fact, I dare say, Satan's temptation efforts increase, not subside after the aurora and the euphoria of that wonderful tent revival trip to the altar experience wears-off. Been there, done that, Mr. Scofield! (I went for days on "cloud nine" of euphoria when it happened to me in my tender youth!) Satan still comes around and tempts us to return to the pit of sin we once were in and to come "wallow around some more" just for good measure!

He exhorts us to lay aside any weight hindering us, and run with endurance the race before us. As Christians, it's important to remember the kind of race it is. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. That's the reason we need endurance. But Paul brings out similar ideas in his other writings.

What "weight"? If our salvation is so secure, why run at all? What are we running from, or what is the goal we are running too? We are obviously running from the temptation to sin, and the goal is obviously our salvation in heaven! It is so obvious, I am flabbergasted that the author of this paper would attempt to turn it around to say something it simply does not say!

The author now goes to Paul again:

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

(Picking myself off the floor is utter amazement) Look what the author quotes! Did he ever consider what this "loss" is that he "suffers" even while he is still "saved"? I presume he realizes that this occurs at the particular judgment of the soul, recently before God Almighty in judgment, but before he can be admitted into heaven, a little "wood, hay" and "straw" must be burned-away before he can go there, or otherwise, acquire a garment that is now "white as snow" that no defect can enter into heaven!

I have recently given this condition a new "place name." I call it the Vestibule of Heaven.

Why do I call it that? Simple, so that in my devious way, I can slowly and surely get you used to the idea of a third state in the spiritual realm, the first being heaven, another being hell and the third state?

Well, I might as well let the cat out of the bag and give it the title the Church has given it - PURGATORY! :)

It's clear here Paul is talking of rewards, not salvation. Even if a person loses all their rewards by living a carnal and unfruitful life, they are still saved. But this race theme echoes in his writings

Well, yes, in reference to the "gold, silver, " and "precious stones" but I am not so sure about the "wood, hay" and straw." For it is these "works" (Oops, that terrible word again!) that are tested, and those that are chaff, (sins that are not deadly per 1 John 5:16-17 perhaps) then I see where the "suffering of loss" comes in. Nevertheless, we are still saved. When we are in this "third state," we can at least have the joy of anticipation, and when the purging is complete, heaven awaits!

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. (1 Corinthians 9:24)

I wish the author would have elaborated on what this "prize" is. Speaking to born-again Christians (having been baptized) why does he tell them about running a race? Is not their salvation save and secure at this time? Even while we Catholics believe that baptism actually saves, we also believe that the salvation promised can be squandered away, like the prodigal son who squanders his inheritance in Christ's famous parable. Will the author quote this as proof that even while the Prodigal Son does all of this, he is still saved? I won't know until I finish my response to this paper, but the problem with that spin is, the Prodigal Son returned to his father in remorse and sorrow! Of course the Father took him back! God always forgives when the sinner returns to Him in remorse!

What if the Prodigal Son never returned to his father in the parable? What if, instead, the son continued in his desolute ways, to die in the pig sty he worked in instead in the warmth of his father's house?

Paul's first focus was always heavenly, not earthly. It's sad today we frequently lose this focus. But still, the issue is the jeopardy of heavenly rewards, not salvation. Paul makes the distinction between the two clear. Thus, the conclusion about the passage in Hebrews is the following:

The primary reference of this passage is to Jewish believers in the sense of them being called out of Judaism. Thus, this is NOT a Salvation passage. It is talking of the fruits, the making of our lives into useful ministries. … Those who have lost their first love (Revelation 2). As we emphasize the idea that Jesus did the whole deal, we run the risk of sitting back on our security and not recognizing that we are in a race. Paul was preoccupied with this idea of being in a race. Only Christians are in this race, Paul was not running a race with sinners. Paul's fear was not that he would lose his salvation, but that he would have an unproductive life and have his witness curtailed.[4]

What is a "heavenly reward" if not heaven itself? I do understand the theory of greater rewards in heaven for the great saints, compared with the soul who barely makes it in the door, but I see the counter of two cups, one very large one and one very small one, both being filled to overflowing with water. Are not both cups being "satisfied completely" with the water they are receiving?

No, it is not the degree of these heavenly rewards that Paul is worried about here, but rather salvation itself. No one can "suffer a loss" in heaven, where there is no loss, only joy; there is no pain, only total and complete bliss; no absence from God but a total and complete Beatific Vision of God that no one can describe.

I have once heard the question, what if a soul here on earth were given a microsecond glimpse of the full effects of heaven, could it ever return to earth and into the body it occupies? The answer, no, the soul could not reenter the body, it being now in complete joy in heaven! The body would instantly die and the soul never can return!

Now that we have dealt with two troublesome passages, finding out what they don't mean, you may ask is there any evidence we can't lose our salvation? Certainly.

Huh? Is the author serious here? Never have I seen an attempt to spin scripture to say something it never says, even to reverse what scripture actually says! What a disappointment! Sorry, Mr. Scofield, but you need to find another treatise, another paper that presents a better case for the assertion that "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a prevailing a true doctrine, something totally and completely absent from the first 1500 years of church history, even well into the so called "Protestant Reformation" where main-line Protestant church eschew such a doctrine!

Now, let's see what else the author of the paper has for us:

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

Notice the explicit phrase here, "they shall never perish". If you could lose your salvation, you would perish, and Jesus would be a liar, thus it must not be possible. But also notice there are two hands here, the Father and the Son. The picture is of one hand over the other, a complete enclosure, so that "no one is able to snatch them out". That's comforting, because I'm a man, and if no one can snatch them out, I can't snatch myself out.

So long as I stay faithful to Christ, His gospel message and His edicts, I remain one of "His sheep." I will "never parish" so long as I continue to believe in Him. That is the great promise of Christ here. And indeed, "no one is able to snatch them out" (of His hand) which certainly includes Satan, who can still tempt, but what by our own free will of choice that I "take myself out of His hand"? Jesus is laying down a covenential promise of what He will do for our salvation when we come to him in faith and obedience. What is unspoken here is our need to hold up our end of the bargain - to stay faithful to Him that he may fulfill His promise to us. It is that simple, sir…

But there's a problem, you may say. Can't I walk away? I don't think so. Later Jesus, just before his betrayal, had this to say in his prayer to the Father.

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

It's not up to us to maintain our salvation. Jesus does all the work. Whose job is it to keep the sheep? Certainly not the sheep, they are too stupid. It's the shepherd's job to keep the sheep. And one of Jesus' seven "I AM" statements in John is "I AM the good shepherd" (John 10:11). If Jesus is the shepherd, he isn't going to lose any sheep. By myself, I'm sure I could screw it up, but fortunately, it's not my job.

Let me first post some scripture that opposes this idea (some already discussed here):

WHY THERE IS NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Mt 10:22
But whoever holds out till the end will escape death. (NAB)

Mt 24:13
The man who holds out to the end, however, is the one who
will see salvation. (NAB)

Mk 13:13
Nonetheless, the man who holds out till the end is the one
who will come through safe. (NAB)

Lk 9:62
Jesus answered him, "Whoever puts his hand to the plow but
keeps looking back is unfit for the reign of God." (NAB)

Rom 5:2
... we boast of our hope for the glory of God. (NAB)

COMMENT: Why "hope" if salvation is so secure?

Rom 8:24-25
In hope we are saved. But hope is not hope if its object is
seen; how is it possible to hope for what he sees? And hoping
for what we cannot see means awaiting it with patient
endurance. (NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
For all these reasons, let anyone who thinks
he is standing upright watch out lest he fall! (NAB)

1 Cor 4:3-5
It matters little to me whether you or any human court
pass judgment on me. I do not even pass judgment on myself.
Mind you, I have nothing on my conscience. But that does
not mean that I am declaring myself innocent. The Lord is
the one to judge me, so stop passing judgment before the
time of his return. He will bring to light what is hidden
in the darkness and manifest the intentions of hearts. At
that time, everyone will receive his praise from God. (NAB)

1 Cor 9:27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after
having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. (NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure should
take care not to fall. (NAB)

2 Cor 6:3
We avoid giving anyone offense, so that our ministry may
not be blamed. On the contrary, in all that we do we
strive to present ourselves as ministers of God, acting
with patient endurance amid trials, difficulties,
distresses, beatings, imprisonments, and riots; as men
familiar with hard work, sleepless nights and fastings...(NAB)

Gal 5:1-4
1. For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do
not submit again to the yoke of slavery. 2. It is I, Paul,
who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised,
Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3. Once again, I declare
to every man who has himself circumcised that he is
bound to observe the entire law. 4. You are separated from
Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you
have fallen from grace. (NAB)

Phil 2:12
So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my
urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your
salvation, not only when I happen to be with you but
all the more now that I am absent. It is God, who, in
his good will toward you, begets in you any measure of
desire or achievement. (NAB)

Phil 3:11-14
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the
dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of
it or have already attained perfect maturity , but I
continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it,
since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ
[Jesus]. 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider my-
self to have taken possession. Just one thing: for-
getting what lies behind but straining forward to what
lies ahead. 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal,
the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus.(NAB)

1 Tim 4:1
Not the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times
some will turn away from the faith by paying attention
to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions...(NAB)

1 Tim 5:15
For some have already turned away to follow Satan. (NAB)

Heb 3:12-15
12 Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an
evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living
God. 13 Encourage yourselves daily while it is still
"today," so that none of you may grow hardened by the
deceit of sin. 14 We have become partners of Christ if
only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until
the end, 15 for it is said:

Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
"Harden not your hearts as it the
rebellion." (NAB)

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have
once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift
and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good
word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and
then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance
again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for
themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Heb 6:11-12
Our desire is that each of you show the same zeal till the
end, fully assured of that for which you hope. Do not grow
lazy but Imitate those who through faith and patience, are
inheriting the promises. (NAB)

1 Pet 1:13-15
So gird the loins of your understanding; live soberly; set
your hope on the gift to be conferred on you when Jesus
Christ appears. (NAB)

2 Pet 2:15
Abandoning the straight road, they have gone astray,
following the road of Baslaam, the son of Bosor, who
loved payment for wrongdowing,...

2 Pet 2:20-21 20
For if they, having escaped the defilement of the world
through the of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again
become entangled and overcome by them, their last
condition is worse then their first. 21 For it would have
been better for them not to have known the way of righteous-
ness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy
commandment handed down to them.

Now, I think this listing of scripture quotes is overwhelming to say the lest, but let me now turn to Jesus' words quoted here, which I bring down in a copy/paste operation:

But there's a problem, you may say. Can't I walk away? I don't think so. Later Jesus, just before his betrayal, had this to say in his prayer to the Father.

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

It's not up to us to maintain our salvation. Jesus does all the work. Whose job is it to keep the sheep? Certainly not the sheep, they are too stupid. It's the shepherd's job to keep the sheep. And one of Jesus' seven "I AM" statements in John is "I AM the good shepherd" (John 10:11). If Jesus is the shepherd, he isn't going to lose any sheep. By myself, I'm sure I could screw it up, but fortunately, it's not my job.

First of all, who are those souls that Christ says, "I kept them in Your name"?

First of all, Christ, being God, knows full well who will remain with Him, and those who will abandon Him. Being God, He knows all things. The problem is, does His knowledge if these things abridge the free will to either remain with Him or to abandon Him. Calvin had this problem: He could not understand how God can "preknow" the outcome of our decisions, yet not interfere with our decisions!

The great St. Thomas Aquinas, probably the greatest theologian the Church ever had, was the first to postulate the idea of The Natural Law. I am not the intellectual that can sit here and claim to be up to St. Thomas, not by a long shot! But I can expound upon an elementary idea of what this Natural Law is.

It goes something like this:

I intuitively know in my heart that it is wrong to hit another, simply because that individual may hit back! Therefore, buy the natural law, if it is wrong for him to hit be back, it is wrong for me to hit in the first place! Get the idea?

In other words, we have instilled within all of us, the "natural" knowledge of right and wrong. This is why the "T" in the five-point Calvanistic "TULIP" is so wrong, since by that theory man is so totally depraved, he cannot have even this inherent knowledge! Yet we see it in ourselves, others and in mankind is seen in the history of man.

Now, here is the kicker………..

That natural law, inherent in us, also tells us that, if a robber forces me at gun-point to fill his bag of loot, I cannot be held responsible for being his accomplice simply because I had not the free will to choose otherwise! For me to be guilty, I must have chosen to do so by my own free will of choice.

Also known inherently is the sincerity of love. What man would choose that his wife love him out of demand and law, rather then out of her own free will of choice? The answer is obvious. A man most desires his wife to love him freely and unhindered by demands that she do so.

The natural law is an all encompassing law of God of the Universe He created, which includes the physical/mathematical laws of that nature He created. Thus the natural law is God's law as well! And if it is God's law, and we are created in His image, then it is the natural conclusion that God want us to love him out of our own free will of choice! That also means that to have this superior love from all of us, God "takes a chance" if you will, and allows us the free will to either choose Him, and to then later on, abandon Him. Love that comes to Him in the victory of salvation at the end of human life must be so precious to Him!

And Jesus, in his statement quoted, knows who they are by his divine predestination, a predestination that does not disturb the free will of choice that would have them remain faithfully in Him! (And Yes, Catholics believe in predestination, but not the way Calvin thought of it.)

But there are several other considerations to think of. Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by faith, not by works. In fact, even the faith to believe is a gift from God! Logically, if I didn't do anything to obtain salvation, can I do anything to lose it? I don't think so. If God chose us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), will he unchoose us later? That would imply he can change, and God does not change (Hebrews 13:8 ). Thus if you are chosen, you will remain so. This idea of being chosen disturbs many people, for they think "what if I haven't been chosen, and I'm believing in vain". But anyone who comes to Jesus will be accepted (John 6:37 - Note: The free will vs. predestination arguments result from a lack of understating of physics and is too involved to be discussed here, just be assured if you come to Jesus, he will accept you and will not turn you away).

Again, Paul is speaking about the "works of the law" which do not save. Remember, Paul had to fight the tendency for the early Jewish Christians to revert back to the old laws that are now put aside, the old covenant of the law being fulfilled. James, on the other hand, spoke of "works" that should and must accompany Faith in good works, else our faith is dead in it's tracks.

But Paul has another issue in Ephesians. In chapter 1 verses 13-14, he speaks of being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of promise. Now I may be strange, but if God seals something, I don't see how it could be unsealed. But Paul goes on to speak of the Holy Spirit as "the guarantee of our inheritance". The old King James uses the word "earnest", as we would use today in earnest money when purchasing a house. The earnest money means you are serious about the transaction. And God is serious about completing his transaction. We get this earnest "until the redemption of the purchased possession (Revelation 5), to the praise of His glory". What God starts, he finishes.

Being "sealed" is the same concept that God knows all things, even our destination if faith, yet at the same time, does not interfere with the free will of choice that we choose what path we may choose. One may be predestined to salvation on earth, but that is not to say that this soul chooses salvation outside of his own free will. God simply knows what he will choose, period. To say that we can be "unsealed" is simply a misunderstanding of the omniscience of God that we will never understand until we are with Him in heaven.

But some would call this whole idea of eternal security "cheap grace". If we don't do anything for it, somehow it lessens the whole thing. Totally wrong. Jesus made the supreme sacrifice, to call it cheap is to demean and belittle his whole experience. Paul, of course, in Romans deals with people who think grace means they can do anything they want.

On the other hand, to say that the Sacrifice on the Cross is so efficient, that even while we are saved, yet sin greviously, it then becomes a "license to sin!" If the author goes that far, then why not also say that the sacrifice of the cross is so efficient, it even eliminates hell and ALL souls are saved ipso facto as the blood ran down the rugged wood of the cross! Of course, that is not so, is it, as we must come to Him, believe in Him, and commit to obey His edicts and commands that the blood of the cross applies, yet leaving open once again, the free will of chose that we may even reject him later, and indeed, by like the "sow who returns to wallow in her own mire…"

But there is another issue that is disturbing, illustrated in the following two verses.

"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (Matthew 7:22)

First, it's clear these are heavy hitters. Casting out demons is nothing to take lightly. These people obviously are performing some miraculous things. But the disturbing idea is what comes next.

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:23)

The real problem is NOT can you lose your salvation (you can't), the real problem is, were you ever saved in the first place? This is perhaps a more disturbing question than losing your salvation. First off, we are not speaking of sincere doubts, we at some point all have those. Remember satan and his FUD campaign. Have you made a sincere prayer of commitment to Christ? If so, you don't have a problem. If not, do it now.

BINGO! (Famous "Catholic" word!) I just knew the author would get to this! But so blatantly?

All I have to do is simply ask the question: If there is a reality that one is not saved in the first place, then how in the whole wide world can you say you are sincere in your faith, that you will never fail Christ, abandon him, yet we see this happening every day? I will bet you 20 bananas that every one who has apostatized from the faith will tell you, they were sincere in their own minds about their salvation! It simply boils down to, how do we really know? How can I really know I will not loose my faith in total apostasy? The answer is obvious; I simply don't know! No body can know, even the saints did not know until they were given their "spotless white gowns" when they entered heaven as a result of their victory in judgment before Almighty God! No wonder Paul tells us to "win the race" and to "persevere to the end."

But after that, how can we be assured of salvation? The Bible speaks of several ways. First, it's important to realize we must NOT consider our feelings. They are easily manipulated by the enemy to deceive us. And if we have a great feeling, what happens when we don't have it? Are we unsaved until we get that feeling back? Hardly. It's simply that feelings are not a reliable assurance of our eternal security. We must trust in the Word of God.

How about the "feelings" that may come from a guilty conscience if we grievously sin? Is that now how we are convicted of sin, that we fall into remorse for that sin and seek repentance once again from that sin? I sure would love to see the authors' take on John 20:22-23 where Christ gives to His apostles the power to forgive or retains the sin of men! How is it that Christ gives this authority to them if indeed, once we are saved, we cannot loose that salvation? Why the need to have a man, (priest of bishop) hear our confession that we may be returned to a "state of grace" once again, we get on the right path for salvation?

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. (1 John 5:9-10)

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

Of course! And that includes being baptized, receive Him often in the Eucharist, and when we do sin once again, take advantage of the authority of John 20:22-23 that we may be returned to that "state of grace" we all need to be in as we journey in life to the day we come before God in judgment.

Nowhere does it say anything about feelings. We are not to rely on them. But there are ways to be assured. Both Paul and John speak of this.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Romans 8:16-17)

What does this mean? How does His Spirit bear witness with our spirit? One way is simple, and often taken for granted. Do you believe the Bible? His Spirit wrote it. If you agree with it, your spirit and His are in agreement. This is not a minor point. Most people certainly don't believe the Bible is the very Word of God. It's just something we as Christians take for granted. But Paul says it's one way we can know we are children of God. Also in that great chapter we call Romans 8 is the following.

I wish the author could speak about the convictions of the conscience when we sin again, noting a slight reference to the Bible as if it were his only source of such revelation, but that is another thread... I believe that the bible is the "written" Word of God, wondering how the author believe this. By what authority does he believe the Bible he holds in his hands is the "Word of God"? Who told him? Again, another thread…

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

Have you ever been led by the Spirit? If so, Paul says it's because you are a son of God. In this great chapter are two ways we can be assured we are children of God. But John also speaks of the assurance of salvation in his letters.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. (1 John 3:24)

What if the day comes that you or I cease to "keep the commandments"?

Do you keep his commandments? If you do, it's more evidence you are saved. Not that you have to be perfect, that is not John's point. But that we strive to always keep his commandments. And what are they? We don't have to guess, John tells us.

No, it is evidence that you are most likely heaven-bound if you die right now! What about tomorrow if you were to cease obeying the commandments, hummmmmmmmmmmmm?

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)

There are two ideas. First, believe on Jesus Christ - John says the same thing as Paul in Romans 10:9. But he adds one other method for assurance of salvation - love one another. So here is another way to test your salvation - do you have love for the brethren? If we don't understand exactly what that might imply, John further amplifies this concept.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. (1 John 3:14)

And what kind of love is he talking about? The Greek word for love is agapao. Simply put, it means totally given over to or devoted. But you don't need to know Greek to understand this, as John explains.

But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3:17-18 )

What do you mean by "believe on (or in) Jesus Christ? To simply believe in Him, even declare that you will follow Him, yet you ignore other things Christ would have us do, may not be entirely a "belief" in Christ. I believe in Christ, but I also, to the best of my ability, conform to what it is He wants me to do, including conforming to the authority of the very Church He founded. I also love God and Christ, His divine Son, to the maximum of my ability, not to say that I love him enough - I am inadequate to do so completely.

What is interesting is the reference to "good works" in 1 John 3:17-18, which are certainly not the works, Paul speaks of, which is the "works of the law" that will never save, but rather "works" that must accompany our faith, if faith is to be alive and not dead. My quotes from James illustrate this as well, the works that perpetuate our faith that will result in the salvation we seek.

"Are you saved?"

That is the cry of the Fundamentalist who believes that there is a defining moment in our life where we accept Jesus as our personal savior and Lord as being that point where we are indeed, "saved," never to fear the specter of future sins, through our own free will of choice, that are not only simply turning our backs of the savior we have embraced, but now becomes the savior we reject as well. We Catholics rather like the term, "being saved" since this is the continuing mission throughout our lifetime. We are only saved absolutely when we have died and have passed the test of judgment before Almighty God.

We have several ways in the Bible to be assured of our salvation.

His spirit bearing witness with our spirit. (Romans 8:16-17). This occurs by the Word of God.

Being led by God (Romans 8:14)

Keeping God's commandments (1 John 3:23-24)

Love (agapao) for the brethren (1 John 3:14, 17-18 )

Unfortunately, we frequently rely on feelings and experiences, which not only are unreliable, but can easily be used by the enemy to deceive us. Satan himself can transform into an angel of light (2 Cor 11:13-14). We must anchor ourselves firmly to the rock of the Word of God.

The problem is, every one of the references do not indicate a finality of our salvation. In every case, we can reject the spirit we once had in abundance, but now close the door in the temple of our bodies. We may be "led by God" now, but we can spurn that leadership and then be led by Satan! He still lurks to tempt us, knowing how me may be successful, else why does he waste his time in tempting us if our salvation is so secure?

In conclusion, it is not possible for a person to lose their salvation, for it's not theirs for the keeping, it's Jesus' responsibility. We contribute nothing. Secondly, we must run the race set before us with endurance. Thirdly, it is possible to have assurance of salvation. The Bible provides at least four different ways, but we must be careful not to rely on feelings or experiences, as they can deceive us.

Totally and completely refuted by my reply here! Salvation is NOT secure, we can, by our own free will of choice, continue in the influence of the grace God gives us to continue with Him, or to deny Him once again and return to the sinful life we once led.

Finally, think of Paul's final words to Timothy, just before his execution at the hands of the Romans. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. (2 Timothy 4:7)

Good advice from a man who would know.

Of course it is good advice! Noting that Paul had to "fight" to achieve his salvation! He "finished the race" by keeping Christ's commandments, and certainly by keeping faith in Him! And if he does so by his own free will of choice, how wonderful the joy for God that Paul has done so by that free will of choice!

God takes the chance with us, in our free will, that we may choose to reject Him.

O' how much joy he receives when that love comes to Him willingly in a choice that embraces Him to the end! :)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your
children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings,
but
YOU WERE UNWILLING!
Matt 23:37
 
Typical Roman junk...that's all you proved. I don't think you read the first post at all and if you did take off the Latin glasses, your focus will become a lttle better.

Bill, I'm going to take a little break from the net. A couple of days. I'll read your posts when I get back.

In the mean time, guys and gals, keep protesting against the abuse of tradition. (pro means positive, keep that in mind. Protestant are affirming the positive Word of God against traditions of man)
 
Scofield said:
Typical Roman junk...that's all you proved. I don't think you read the first post at all and if you did take off the Latin glasses, your focus will become a lttle better.

Bill, I'm going to take a little break from the net. A couple of days. I'll read your posts when I get back.

In the mean time, guys and gals, keep protesting against the abuse of tradition. (pro means positive, keep that in mind. Protestant are affirming the positive Word of God against traditions of man)

Have a good rest, Mr. Schfield. Perhaps when you get back you can do a good refutation of what I have told you.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.


- St. Vincent Pallotti -
 
justin Martyr a "first" century sola scriptura Chr

tells us of the certainty through Holy baptism


I am well aware of Jesus who warn's us if we think we are standing firm be carful so that we do not fall.

I am well aware of those sanctified and Jesus tells us they fell away.

But Iam also very much aware of his promises to us.
The promises he made about Holy baptism.

I just trust Jesus word by returning to his sacrament of holy baptism
i am certain of my salvation.

He clothes me with himself My Jesus can't fall away and through baptism
He alone keeps Me! If it was up to me i most certainly would fall away from his truth.

But since my salvation is in His capable hands can never fall away .

Jesus makes me certain by his holy baptism.

Justin Martyr AD 89-166 a defender of the Christian faith and infant baptism
a convert to the christian faith and who lived and knew better than many of us living today the practice of the last Living apostles
and directly the beloved apostle John
put baptismal regeneration (being born again this way) !

We lead them
to a place where their is "water" and they are regenerated in the same maner in which we are selves are regenerated. In the name Of God The Father The Lord of all and of our savior Jesus Christ and of the Holy Ghost
then they receive the washing with water for Christ sake"Unless you be born again you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Justin Martyr born 89 died 166

in his apology one notices this "first" century Christian does not question that John 3:3 refers to water baptism and the holy spirit go together as a sacrament that gives us Knew birth! He makes it clear in his apology that John 3:5 is talking water Baptism regenerates us.

Is their any wonder why the reformed do not like Lutheran people to refer to this first century christian or other early christian's born a little latter than him.

and again many in the baptist tradition's would be totaly surprised at the method's this ((((first)))) century Christian knew were
ok to use for the sacrament of holy baptism.

it was not just immersion.

Gods blessing's
 
Re: justin Martyr a "first" century sola scriptura

thor said:
tells us of the certainty through Holy baptism


I am well aware of Jesus who warn's us if we think we are standing firm be carful so that we do not fall.

I am well aware of those sanctified and Jesus tells us they fell away.

But Iam also very much aware of his promises to us.
The promises he made about Holy baptism.

I just trust Jesus word by returning to his sacrament of holy baptism
i am certain of my salvation.

He clothes me with himself My Jesus can't fall away and through baptism
He alone keeps Me! If it was up to me i most certainly would fall away from his truth.

But since my salvation is in His capable hands can never fall away .

Jesus makes me certain by his holy baptism.

Justin Martyr AD 89-166 a defender of the Christian faith and infant baptism
a convert to the christian faith and who lived and knew better than many of us living today the practice of the last Living apostles
and directly the beloved apostle John
put baptismal regeneration (being born again this way) !

We lead them
to a place where their is "water" and they are regenerated in the same maner in which we are selves are regenerated. In the name Of God The Father The Lord of all and of our savior Jesus Christ and of the Holy Ghost
then they receive the washing with water for Christ sake"Unless you be born again you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Justin Martyr born 89 died 166

in his apology one notices this "first" century Christian does not question that John 3:3 refers to water baptism and the holy spirit go together as a sacrament that gives us Knew birth! He makes it clear in his apology that John 3:5 is talking water Baptism regenerates us.

Is their any wonder why the reformed do not like Lutheran people to refer to this first century christian or other early christian's born a little latter than him.

and again many in the baptist tradition's would be totaly surprised at the method's this ((((first)))) century Christian knew were
ok to use for the sacrament of holy baptism.

it was not just immersion.

Gods blessing's

****
One might do a read on Matt. 4 to find the once saved of perhaps God's first of creation? talking to Christ Himself, & using his santanic wisdom to [quote promises]. And you talk of [tradition] too??? B-R-A-I-N dead tradition! :robot: See Mark 7:7!

"Howbeit in VAIN do [ye] worship me, teaching for DOCTRINE the commandments of men." Thanks, but NO CAN DO! "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS". (Not man's foolish traditions! :cry: )

----John
 
Does your faith suffer from fear and doubt?

Are you not able to trust the work of God, Christ's death and His blood shed in your place?

Would you like me to take the Bible and show you how you can know you are saved, without a doubt?
 
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