Faith alone?

[Walpole]

Alone = to the exclusion of all others or all else

If faith alone saves, then you must believe a dead faith - a faith apart from anything else - is a salvific one. (cf. James 2:26)

 

[JLB]

Alone = to the exclusion of all others or all else

If faith alone saves, then you must believe a dead faith - a faith apart from anything else - is a salvific one. (cf. James 2:26)

Believing without obeying is demonic believing.


You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19


Demons believe in God, but they continue to obey Satan.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

He gives information showing that Jesus is the Christ. Again, no checklist. Unless you are suggesting that John's writings are opposed to those of the other apostles. Is that your contention?

My contention is that the purpose of John is to define the salvation of man and therefore anything needed for that purpose would be included in John. Since I don't see a requirement for WORKS one can conclude WORKS is not a prerequisite for salvation. This being based on the assumption that John would not give information about how to be saved that was incomplete.

Where do you see an implication? Again, are you suggesting that John's writings oppose those of the other apostles?

He only opposes the writings of other gospels if you contention that WORKS is a requirement to be saved is true.
Speaking of which, what were the WORKS of the guy beside Jesus on the cross?

Notice that John says, by believing that Jesus is the Christ you "might" have life in His name. He didn't say you will have life in His name. That indicates that there is something else necessary. If it was simply believing what John wrote then he should have said one will have life in His name. He doesn't say that. he says "might" have life in His name. The word might indicates that some other factor is in play.

Interesting interpretation. Getting further into it won't get us anywhere.

The question of why they obey isn't relevant to the argument. Your argument was that one condition was listed and that's all that's needed. I used the same argument. The verse doesn't state it but it does give us the answer. Since no one is yet saved, obedience must then precede salvation, thus it is a cause, not a result.

Hmmm, I never heard that statement that obedience must precede salvation. I agree that your conclusion that works is the cause of salvation is true if your premise is true, but I don't agree with your premise the obedience must precede salvation. Again, I never heard that thought before (not the my hearing it or not hearing it makes it true/false).
I argue that people obey because they have faith, because they trust the word of God. Thus WORK are and effect of salvation where salvation is the point in time one is converted. Thus one is saved (converted) before WORKS occur.

Your syllogism (IMO)
Premise 1: Works precedes salvation
Premise 2: We are depraved. No one pleases God; no one seeks God.
Premise 3: Faith is needed for salvation
Conclusion: I chose to do works even though I don't have reason to do so because I don't have faith (believe God) and despite my depravity which would prevent me from obeying
Your reasoning doesn't make sense IMO

My Syllogism
Premise 1: Salvation requires faith that God's word is true using the Bible only as God's instructions (that gets rid of the R.Cs)
Conclusion: Once saved my faith causes me to obey

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
(Mk. 10:29-30 NKJ)

Yeah, we are rewarded for our works (which a caused by the Spirit) but again this does not prove WORKS is the cause or result of salvation.

Salvation is a a process. The Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past, present, and future, thus showing it is a process

Hmmm ... well this may be another issue we have. I gave two definitions of salvation. The one you state above and the one that is "the moment one is converted". I have been using the second one.
If SALVATION is to be defined as a process then I agree the WORKS is a necessary part of salvation for Faith without works is dead.

We know that water baptism was given to every Christian. At the time Jesus said that there was no baptism of the spirit, it had not been given yet. That only leaves water baptism.

Well, Jesus spoke of future events and that could be one explanation.

So, is it your argument that we take a 21st century definition and impose it one a 1st century writing.

No, it is my argument that the 16th thru 20th century translators translated 1st century writings into 20th century vernacular to facilitate understanding (otherwise, what's the point ... are we all to learn Greek and then historical entomology in order to know what they are saying in the many manuscripts? ... I have enough trouble with English... giggle). That when I see the word WORKS I can go to a 20th century dictionary to ensure I proper understanding of the words they are using.

Bedtime ...have a good one

 

[Fastfredy0]

It’s obvious you don’t understand the principle of faith that is stated in scripture.

Well, it is obvious that one or both of us don’t understand the principle of faith that is stated in scripture. We disagree as to whom that person is.

 

[Hopeful]

Well, it is obvious that one or both of us don’t understand the principle of faith that is stated in scripture. We disagree as to whom that person is.

It is the "works" you don't seem to grasp.
The works Paul downplayed were the works of the Mosaic Law.
Circumcision, dietary law, feast keeping, temple worship, etc.
Those are the "works" that will not gain a man salvation.
Hearing, believing, repentance from sin, water baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, enduring faithfully till the end, obedience, etc. are not works FOR salvation.
They are the result of faith in God and in His word.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hearing, believing, repentance from sin, water baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, enduring faithfully till the end, obedience, etc. are not works FOR salvation.
They are the result of faith in God and in His word

Agreed

 

[smaller]

Are you honestly, still trying to teach people they are full of the devil, because you read this verse and don’t understand what Paul is teaching?


I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-22


The law of sin resides in our physical bodies, so Paul is teaching that we as Christians, are to live our lives according to the Spirit within us, and not according to the sin in our flesh.


The conclusion is to therefore walk according to the Spirit.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1



If born again Christians live according to the desires of our flesh we will die; we will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

I think you and I have run our course on these matters, so what you make of it will have to be entirely on you JLB

I know for a fact I'm a sinner. No dodging the obvious

And as such, I know the need for God's very real Mercy in Christ

So good luck to you in your honesty quest

fini to u

 

[JLB]

I know for a fact I'm a sinner.

Sinners by definition are separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


A saint on the other hand is someone who has been redeemed, as is therefore a person who is holy, consecrated to God, and therefore righteous; a person who practices righteousness.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

• People who practice sinning and sinners.
• People who practice righteousness are righteous.

We have the God given ability to practice righteousness because the Righteousness One dwells within us, and leads us to practice righteousness, by His Spirit.



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:12-14






JLB

 

[smaller]

Sinners by definition are separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


A saint on the other hand is someone who has been redeemed, as is therefore a person who is holy, consecrated to God, and therefore righteous; a person who practices righteousness.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

• People who practice sinning and sinners.
• People who practice righteousness are righteous.

We have the God given ability to practice righteousness because the Righteousness One dwells within us, and leads us to practice righteousness, by His Spirit.



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:12-14






JLB

We've done this drill a thousand times JLB

No sense beleaguering the point. Your tangent works for you, and probably you only believe it

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[Quantrill]

We've done this drill a thousand times JLB

No sense beleaguering the point. Your tangent works for you, and probably you only believe it

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

It's interesting to me that as Paul grew as a Christian he didn't see himself getting more righteous. He saw himself as a worse sinner.

First, he was the least of the apostles. (1 Cor. 15:9)

Second, he was less than the least of all saints. (Eph. 38)

Third, he was chief of all sinners. (1 Tim. 1:15)

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

It's interesting to me that as Paul grew as a Christian he didn't see himself getting more righteous. He saw himself as a worse sinner.

First, he was the least of the apostles. (1 Cor. 15:9)

Second, he was less than the least of all saints. (Eph. 38)

Third, he was chief of all sinners. (1 Tim. 1:15)

Quantrill

Nice catch.

Paul was self deprecating for a very good, even Divine reason. Because he understood that he, like all of us, are comprised of good and wait for it, evil, internally. Romans 7:21

The evil portion we are technically advised to both resist and even to hate, even whilst in the midst of it.

When we see this "personally" scriptures we often don't understand will illuminate, such as Luke 14:26 which many attempt to say means to "love others" less than God, but that doesn't really cut it in the light of evil present within us.

Sin is, after all, of the devil, 1 John 3:8, so it's technically not even ourselves we resist, but the tempter that operates internally in everyone, per Mark 4:15

yet

is seldom spoken of...

The other interesting part is that this also causes us to see only in part, as through the proverbial glass darkly, effectively eliminating anyone from claims of having "all truth."

And, another interesting aspect is you'll see right through anyone claiming to be legally obedient, because, you see, the evil present within no one is "legally obedient." It's quite laughable when the wraps come off to even make such claims or see others make them

Yes, my evil present is legally obedient....sure it is, harumph

It also explains why believers seldom see eye to eye, and the endless cascade of splits and pointless debates, which I would suggest are quite utterly and thoroughly, demonically based

I'll admit the tempter in my own flesh is incapable of being civil, and even less capable of being compliant to the scriptures

I would conclude from this we all have a love/hate relationship with God, and this actually does inspire a very real and healthy fear of God (personally experienced)

 

[JLB]

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
1 Timothy 1:12-15

Of all the sinners Christ came to save, Paul considered himself the main one; the chief.


This certainly doesn’t mean Paul was a sinner after he was saved. That’s utterly ridiculous. A sinner is someone who is separated from Christ.


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


A sinner is someone who is lost; separate from God


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Like 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

• A just person is someone who is right with God, righteous, justified, reconciled with God.

• A sinner must repent, turn to God, and be reconciled to Him, in order to be saved.

Here are a few passages from Paul’s writings —


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

• let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

• Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Sinners are those who practice sin, and are disobedient to God; stubborn and willful, those who refuse to humble themselves and repent. Those who are separated from Christ. Hebrews 7:26

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

A saint is a person who is saved, sanctified and holy.

Saint —. Strong's G40 - hagios​

1. most holy thing, a saint

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.


It’s sad that you don’t know the difference between a sinner and a saint; a child of God.




Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20





JLB

 

[JLB]

Third, he was chief of all sinners. (1 Tim. 1:15)

Can you explain the difference between a saint, and a sinner?

 

[Quantrill]

Can you explain the difference between a saint, and a sinner?

That is an odd question in light of my statement you quoted.

Paul said he was the 'chief' of all sinners.

Was he telling the truth, or lying?

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

This certainly doesn’t mean Paul was a sinner after he was saved. That’s utterly ridiculous. A sinner is someone who is separated from Christ.

You can read "I am" as past tense and it won't change it from present tense, "I am"

 

[Walpole]

You can read "I am" as past tense and it won't change it from present tense, "I am"

St. Paul ---> "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Tim 1:15)


St. John ---> "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)


St. James ---> "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8)


Remember these Apostles were writing to believers.

 

[JLB]

You can read "I am" as past tense and it won't change it from present tense, "I am"

Paul said he was at the top of the list of those sinners Chrit’s came to save.


Once a sinner is saved they are a saint, and no longer a sinner.


If you didn’t know this then now you do.


Sinners are those who practice sin, and are disobedient to God; stubborn and willful, those who refuse to humble themselves and repent. Those who are separated from Christ. Hebrews 7:26

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

A saint is a person who is saved, sanctified and holy.

Saint —. Strong's G40 - hagios​

1. most holy thing, a saint

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.






JLB

 

[smaller]

Paul said he was at the top of the list of those sinners Chrit’s came to save.


Once a sinner is saved they are a saint, and no longer a sinner.


If you didn’t know this then now you do.


Sinners are those who practice sin, and are disobedient to God; stubborn and willful, those who refuse to humble themselves and repent. Those who are separated from Christ. Hebrews 7:26

Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos​

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   1. not free from sin
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         1. tax collectors, heathen

A saint is a person who is saved, sanctified and holy.

Saint —. Strong's G40 - hagios​

1. most holy thing, a saint

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.






JLB

I've conceded this point to you many times. Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to grasp the complexities of it:

To your point, specifically,

"Once a sinner is saved they are a saint, and no longer a sinner."

We know sins are not counted against mankind, per 2 Cor. 5:19

We also know that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8

We also know that people are not devils. Your opinion may differ on this count

In any case, temptations and theft of Word from withIN still transpire in people, and does so via the tempter, the devil.

So it's fairly easy to see the culprit in these matters, and it's not our neighbors whom we are quite thoroughly commanded to LOVE throughout the scriptures.

Rather than trying to keep people out of heaven, which is not very productive, our time spent on trying to damn anyone would seem to be better and well spent directing such expositions to the real enemies of us all

Agree if you can. Mark 4:15 is and remains real for all

and every Word of God applies to everyone, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

 

[smaller]

St. Paul ---> "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Tim 1:15)


St. John ---> "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)


St. James ---> "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8)


Remember these Apostles were writing to believers.

I see nothing above that I would disagree with

We are well advised to consider that we all remain, as Paul did, with evil present within us. Romans 7:21

Considering that we are the enemies of Satan, temptations of various sorts are an ongoing and internal matter for all, particularly for believers. We should not then see only ourselves in these matters, but the adversary that we engage, internally.

We do come before God with an evil conscience, which we should always and perpetually seek to divide ourselves from. Not cover it up, hide it, and provide excuses and dismissals for.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

And it does not mean taking a bath with physical water, but the washing of the water of the Word of Life

Those who seek to condemn themselves or other believers on any basis are certainly not promoting their or others best interests

Neither should we be pawns of our own evil conscience. Honesty understands it's not us, but our adversary

Divide there, and conquer

 

[JLB]

I've conceded this point to you many times. Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to grasp the complexities of it:

To your point, specifically,

"Once a sinner is saved they are a saint, and no longer a sinner."

We know sins are not counted against mankind, per 2 Cor. 5:19

We also know that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8

We also know that people are not devils. Your opinion may differ on this count

In any case, temptations and theft of Word from withIN still transpire in people, and does so via the tempter, the devil.

So it's fairly easy to see the culprit in these matters, and it's not our neighbors whom we are quite thoroughly commanded to LOVE throughout the scriptures.

Rather than trying to keep people out of heaven, which is not very productive, our time spent on trying to damn anyone would seem to be better and well spent directing such expositions to the real enemies of us all

Agree if you can. Mark 4:15 is and remains real for all

and every Word of God applies to everyone, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

Adding scripture references to your opinion doesn't change anything.


A sinner are those separated from Christ.


A Saint is one who is holy, sanctified by the blood of Jesus.


If you don't know the difference it's not surprising .