Strengthening families through biblical principles.
Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.
My contention is that the purpose of John is to define the salvation of man and therefore anything needed for that purpose would be included in John. Since I don't see a requirement for WORKS one can conclude WORKS is not a prerequisite for salvation. This being based on the assumption that John would not give information about how to be saved that was incomplete.He gives information showing that Jesus is the Christ. Again, no checklist. Unless you are suggesting that John's writings are opposed to those of the other apostles. Is that your contention?
He only opposes the writings of other gospels if you contention that WORKS is a requirement to be saved is true.Where do you see an implication? Again, are you suggesting that John's writings oppose those of the other apostles?
Interesting interpretation. Getting further into it won't get us anywhere.Notice that John says, by believing that Jesus is the Christ you "might" have life in His name. He didn't say you will have life in His name. That indicates that there is something else necessary. If it was simply believing what John wrote then he should have said one will have life in His name. He doesn't say that. he says "might" have life in His name. The word might indicates that some other factor is in play.
Hmmm, I never heard that statement that obedience must precede salvation. I agree that your conclusion that works is the cause of salvation is true if your premise is true, but I don't agree with your premise the obedience must precede salvation. Again, I never heard that thought before (not the my hearing it or not hearing it makes it true/false).The question of why they obey isn't relevant to the argument. Your argument was that one condition was listed and that's all that's needed. I used the same argument. The verse doesn't state it but it does give us the answer. Since no one is yet saved, obedience must then precede salvation, thus it is a cause, not a result.
Yeah, we are rewarded for our works (which a caused by the Spirit) but again this does not prove WORKS is the cause or result of salvation.29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
(Mk. 10:29-30 NKJ)
Hmmm ... well this may be another issue we have. I gave two definitions of salvation. The one you state above and the one that is "the moment one is converted". I have been using the second one.Salvation is a a process. The Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past, present, and future, thus showing it is a process
Well, Jesus spoke of future events and that could be one explanation.We know that water baptism was given to every Christian. At the time Jesus said that there was no baptism of the spirit, it had not been given yet. That only leaves water baptism.
No, it is my argument that the 16th thru 20th century translators translated 1st century writings into 20th century vernacular to facilitate understanding (otherwise, what's the point ... are we all to learn Greek and then historical entomology in order to know what they are saying in the many manuscripts? ... I have enough trouble with English... giggle). That when I see the word WORKS I can go to a 20th century dictionary to ensure I proper understanding of the words they are using.So, is it your argument that we take a 21st century definition and impose it one a 1st century writing.
It is the "works" you don't seem to grasp.Well, it is obvious that one or both of us don’t understand the principle of faith that is stated in scripture. We disagree as to whom that person is.
I think you and I have run our course on these matters, so what you make of it will have to be entirely on you JLBAre you honestly, still trying to teach people they are full of the devil, because you read this verse and don’t understand what Paul is teaching?
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-22
The law of sin resides in our physical bodies, so Paul is teaching that we as Christians, are to live our lives according to the Spirit within us, and not according to the sin in our flesh.
The conclusion is to therefore walk according to the Spirit.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
If born again Christians live according to the desires of our flesh we will die; we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I know for a fact I'm a sinner.
We've done this drill a thousand times JLBSinners by definition are separated from Christ.
For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26
A saint on the other hand is someone who has been redeemed, as is therefore a person who is holy, consecrated to God, and therefore righteous; a person who practices righteousness.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7
- People who practice sinning and sinners.
- People who practice righteousness are righteous.
We have the God given ability to practice righteousness because the Righteousness One dwells within us, and leads us to practice righteousness, by His Spirit.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
We've done this drill a thousand times JLB
No sense beleaguering the point. Your tangent works for you, and probably you only believe it
1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Nice catch.It's interesting to me that as Paul grew as a Christian he didn't see himself getting more righteous. He saw himself as a worse sinner.
First, he was the least of the apostles. (1 Cor. 15:9)
Second, he was less than the least of all saints. (Eph. 38)
Third, he was chief of all sinners. (1 Tim. 1:15)
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief
St. Paul ---> "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Tim 1:15)You can read "I am" as past tense and it won't change it from present tense, "I am"
You can read "I am" as past tense and it won't change it from present tense, "I am"
I've conceded this point to you many times. Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to grasp the complexities of it:Paul said he was at the top of the list of those sinners Chrit’s came to save.
Once a sinner is saved they are a saint, and no longer a sinner.
If you didn’t know this then now you do.
Sinners are those who practice sin, and are disobedient to God; stubborn and willful, those who refuse to humble themselves and repent. Those who are separated from Christ. Hebrews 7:26
Sinner — Strong's G268 - hamartōlos
- devoted to sin, a sinner
- not free from sin
- pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
- all wicked men
- specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
- tax collectors, heathen
A saint is a person who is saved, sanctified and holy.
Saint —. Strong's G40 - hagios
- most holy thing, a saint
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
I see nothing above that I would disagree withSt. Paul ---> "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Tim 1:15)
St. John ---> "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
St. James ---> "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8)
Remember these Apostles were writing to believers.
I've conceded this point to you many times. Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to grasp the complexities of it:
To your point, specifically,
"Once a sinner is saved they are a saint, and no longer a sinner."
We know sins are not counted against mankind, per 2 Cor. 5:19
We also know that sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8
We also know that people are not devils. Your opinion may differ on this count
In any case, temptations and theft of Word from withIN still transpire in people, and does so via the tempter, the devil.
So it's fairly easy to see the culprit in these matters, and it's not our neighbors whom we are quite thoroughly commanded to LOVE throughout the scriptures.
Rather than trying to keep people out of heaven, which is not very productive, our time spent on trying to damn anyone would seem to be better and well spent directing such expositions to the real enemies of us all
Agree if you can. Mark 4:15 is and remains real for all
and every Word of God applies to everyone, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4