Re: what is needed to be saved
Agreed.
John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
But is the scripture silent. John 20:31 states the purpose of the book is salvation. I assume you agree to this that what ever is needed for salvation is in John. I assume we both agree faith is needed for salvation. Where in John does it say we must do works as a cause of our salvation. It should be there as the purpose of John is to give information on salvation.
He gives information showing that Jesus is the Christ. Again, no checklist. Unless you are suggesting that John's writings are opposed to those of the other apostles. Is that your contention?
I agree that just because something isn't stated does not mean it is not needed though I would say there is a implication. I can say you make coffee with hot water, sugar and coffee. One assumes nothing else is needed. It is possible coffee could also include milk, but till that statement is made it is implied that coffee doesn't include milk; otherwise, the purpose of giving the recipe for coffee incomplete.
But again, in John that the purpose of the book is salvation of men and therefore I think it is safe to assume everything needed for salvation is in that book. Where in John does it say we must do works as a cause of our salvation?
Where do you see an implication? Again, are you suggesting that John's writings oppose those of the other apostles? The purpose of John's book was to prove that Jesus is the Christ. It was necessary, to be saved, that one believe that Jesus is the Christ. Look at the passage closely.
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Jn. 20:31 KJV)
Notice that John says, by believing that Jesus is the Christ you "might" have life in His name. He didn't say you will have life in His name. That indicates that there is something else necessary. If it was simply believing what John wrote then he should have said one will have life in His name. He doesn't say that. he says "might" have life in His name. The word might indicates that some other factor is in play.
Agreed. But this does not answer the question: Why did you obey. Is obedience the cause of salvation or the effect of salvation (faith). The verse does not say. You must search for the answer elsewhere.
The question of why they obey isn't relevant to the argument. Your argument was that one condition was listed and that's all that's needed. I used the same argument. The verse doesn't state it but it does give us the answer. Since no one is yet saved, obedience must then precede salvation, thus it is a cause, not a result.
29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
(Mk. 10:29-30 NKJ)
According to Jesus, eternal life is given in the next age.
Peter tells us that salvation is to be revealed at the coming of Jesus Christ.
8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 receiving the end of your faith-- the salvation of your souls.
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things which angels desire to look into.
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (1 Pet. 1:8-13 NKJ)
Salvation is a a process. The Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past, present, and future, thus showing it is a process
Well, the verse doesn't clarify whether it refer to water baptism or spiritual baptism. Using your logic of no assumptions from silence ... I won't bother to continue analyzing the statement save to say Mark 16:9-20 is not found in older manuscripts and is therefore suspect.
We know that water baptism was given to every Christian. At the time Jesus said that there was no baptism of the spirit, it had not been given yet. That only leaves water baptism.
Regarding the absence in the Alexandrian writings, it's not surprising. Alexandria was a hot bed of Gnosticism and the Gnostics were notorious for editing the Scriptures. The passage is mentioned in the early Christian writings at least 200 years prior to the Alexandrian texts so it was in existence before those texts were written.
One would have to define "calls on the name of the Lord". I would save it is equivalent to 'believing on the Lord'. Thus, since this is the only condition for salvation the verse supports my contention that we are saved by FAITH ALONE. Aside: I could use verse references ... thank you Dr. Google for finding them for me
It was only one of several conditions listed
I agree that works are the Mosaic Law. Where does it say WORKS only consist of the Mosaic law.
When the experts translated the Greek to English the English word can be found in the dictionary.
Work = activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
Therefore, when you see WORK it means what the dictionary says. You can't write your own dictionary.
In other words, the translators didn't transcribe the Greek for MOSAIC LAW to WORK... there translated the Greek work for WORK to WORK.
So, is it your argument that we take a 21st century definition and impose it one a 1st century writing. That it's only the Mosaic Law can be seen in the context and in the historical setting. As I pointed out Paul said those who continue is good deeds are seeking eternal life. Would you suggest that Paul is contradicting himself?
The translators use the word WORKS in verse 9
In the Butch5 version of the bible you use: "Not of [Mosaic Law], lest any man should boast. I think you take too much liberty. Maybe this is a point of contention we cannot agree upon and may be the crux of our disagreement.
Again, there is no justification to say it's anything other than the Law. Paul explicitly states that they were not saved by works and explains how. That Jesus broke down the wall of separation and abolished the Law of Moses. It's right there.
This is the problem with proof texting. We can't just take one sentence, out of context, and apply whatever meaning we want to it. At least not and say we're exegeting the passage.
I don't see how this justifies your belief that WORKS = MOSAIC LAW only
Aside: At least you give a clear argument ... and apparently a long one .....
It's the context. Where do you find Paul talking about works and not the Law? And, again, if he meant works were anything one does, he'd be contradicting what he said in Romans 2.