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Faith alone?

Blade

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Faith alone! That means faith alone! Period!
No sacraments ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
No repentance Lk 3:3
No suffering Mk 8:34 Mk 10:21 Phil 1:29
No hope rom 8:24
No charity 1 cor 13:2 1 cor 13:13
No love of God duet. 6:5
No grace Jn 1:16-17
No nothing but faith alone!
Alone means alone!
How many times is "Faith alone" used in the word? Do we know? .. yes it is not faith alone. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
For what I posted one can't just stop there.. one has to read what came before and after.
 

Butch5

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Faith alone! That means faith alone! Period!
No sacraments ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 acts 8:36-38 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
No repentance Lk 3:3
No suffering Mk 8:34 Mk 10:21 Phil 1:29
No hope rom 8:24
No charity 1 cor 13:2 1 cor 13:13
No love of God duet. 6:5
No grace Jn 1:16-17
No nothing but faith alone!
Alone means alone!
But the only place in Scripture that speaks of faith alone says that a man is NOT justified by faith alone.
 
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JLB

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But the only place in Scripture that speaks of faith alone says that a man is NOT justified by faith alone.


Amen.


There is no such scripture that teaches “faith alone”.


Faith without the action or ”work” of obedience is incomplete and dead, just as a body without the spirit is dead.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Contextually, the “works” James is referring to is the action of obedience; specifically Abraham’s obedience to offer his son on the altar.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21





JLB
 

Butch5

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Amen.


There is no such scripture that teaches “faith alone”.


Faith without the action or ”work” of obedience is incomplete and dead, just as a body without the spirit is dead.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Contextually, the “works” James is referring to is the action of obedience; specifically Abraham’s obedience to offer his son on the altar.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21





JLB
The word "alone" was added by Luther.
 
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Fastfredy0

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But the only place in Scripture that speaks of faith alone says that a man is NOT justified by faith alone.
While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.” Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

In summary, James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word. James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.


https://www.gotquestions.org/sola-fide.html Sola Fide (faith alone)
 

Butch5

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While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.” Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

In summary, James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word. James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.

Icould
https://www.gotquestions.org/sola-fide.html Sola Fide (faith alone)
You're not reasoning logically. The lack of mention of another requirement doesn't teach faith alone. The passage simply deals with a particular issue. Since Paul's opponents argued that it was required that Christians to also keep the Law of Moses, the argument was a faith vs. the Mosaic Law argument. If we're arguing between Faith with the Law vs. Faith without the Law, there is no reason to mention other requirements. The issue isn't are there other requirements, the issue is, does one need to keep the Law. Both sides agreed that Faith was necessary, one side argued that the Law of Moses was also necessary.

But James doesn't argue about salvation, but rather Justification. To show that the reasoning is the issue I could make a counter claim using the same argument you've suggested and say that one is saved by obedience alone.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb. 5:9 KJV)

Since there's no other requirement listed one is saved by obedience alone.
 

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Man shall live by every word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

Faith works through love, Gal 5:6

The difficulty in these matters is that the evil present within all of us is never cooperative with any of the things of God

Ask me how many "works" adherents have evil present and I'd say all

Ask me how many "works" adherents have evil present that does acceptable works for God and I'd say zero

Ask me how many can even muster basic honesty on this particular subject and it thins out the herd rather quickly

And there might even be one or 2 braggarts that will claim they never have an evil thought and you will have pinpointed a demonic slave-liar in open sight

Therefore we should submit to Gods Denigration of our own evil, with gladness, even while that evil continues to resist loving our neighbors as ourselves

The law was always against the lawless, 1 Tim 1:9

The evil present within us all is very much lawless, and sin is of the devil

Few are capable of being honest about it

Even fewer will concede that our own evil present can never please God, ever

But, nevertheless, God does happen to love honesty, even when that honesty stings

Most of us are so wrapped up in saving our own sorry hides that we forget Jesus did teach us to hate our life, and the lives of others, Luke 14:26

Instead of singing Jesus loves me, it could be easily and equally the exact opposite case, simultaneously

Why?

See above, and try to be honest, well, at least part of you anyway. The evil in man can never actually be honest, even if and while the person tries to be honest

God loves a good conundrum...you may eat freely...BUT

Freely apparently has its limits

At some point in your believing life, you may have realized that our relationship with God is a factual two way street, and one way runs directly away from Him

And going headlong into God thinking He accepts our evil present is quite a ridiculous claim in any case of sights
 

JLB

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Ask me how many can even muster basic honesty on this particular subject and it thins out the herd rather quickly


Are you honestly, still trying to teach people they are full of the devil, because you read this verse and don’t understand what Paul is teaching?


I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-22


The law of sin resides in our physical bodies, so Paul is teaching that we as Christians, are to live our lives according to the Spirit within us, and not according to the sin in our flesh.


The conclusion is to therefore walk according to the Spirit.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1



If born again Christians live according to the desires of our flesh we will die; we will not inherit the kingdom of God.





JLB
 

Fastfredy0

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You're not reasoning logically. The lack of mention of another requirement doesn't teach faith alone.
When many, many verses state that what is needed to be saved is faith and nothing else is needed then it is logical to believe nothing else is needed unless it can be found else where. You gave a verse that included WORKS and I said why WORKS did not apply. You are free to disagree with my reasoning.

There are numerous verses stating we are NOT saved by works. Your turn to explain them.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. AMP When you get to heaven you can brag about how you teamed up with the all mighty and together the two of you saved yourself. Kudos to you. Brings new meaning to the word gift/grace ... something you have to work for
Isaiah 64:6 And all our deeds of righteousness are like filthy rags; You state your 'filthy rags' are a part of your propitiation of God
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of [breaking] all of it. You say you are saved by faith and works, yet your works show you have fallen short and broken the whole law (unless you are sinless as some report on this site)
Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. Justification is needed for salvation. You state you are saved/justified by works which contradicts scripture IMO.
Galatians 2:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Your answer is YES.
...not to mention all the verses that say you are saved by faith and nothing else is mentioned.



Since Paul's opponents argued that it was required that Christians to also keep the Law of Moses, the argument was a faith vs. the Mosaic Law argument. If we're arguing between Faith with the Law vs. Faith without the Law, there is no reason to mention other requirements. The issue isn't are there other requirements, the issue is, does one need to keep the Law. Both sides agreed that Faith was necessary, one side argued that the Law of Moses was also necessary.
Not sure I follow. Seems I am on the side of Paul and you are on the side of the opponents. I would think you would rather be on Paul's side.


But James doesn't argue about salvation, but rather Justification.
Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus.
There seems to be a contradiction. I argue that Paul speaks of being justified in God's eyes and James speaks of being justified in the eyes of men (I could expand, but keeping this short). How do you explain the contradiction?


And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb. 5:9 KJV)
Agreed. All those that have faith in Christ will obey him. The verse does not say (as you imply) that works saved him. It just says those that are saved will have works. In other words, the verse does not say whether WORKS is the cause or the effect of Salvation. Your bias assumes WORKS to be the cause. I, though I have a bias, say the verse does not explicitly address the question: IS ONE SAVED BY WORKS?
I grant that if this was the only verse in the bible I would put my money on your contention, but many verses (some of which I cited) contradict your interpretation and thus an alternate explanation is needed.
 

Walpole

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The only place where the words "faith alone" appear in Scripture are a condemnation of it.

Alone = separate, apart, or isolated from others; to the exclusion of all others or all else


Romans 8:24 ---> "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

St. Paul tells us we are saved by hope. Hence the statement that we are saved by "faith alone" is demonstrably fallacious. Furthermore, of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity, St. Paul says the greatest is not faith, but rather charity.

1 Cor 13:13 ---> "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
 

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Are you honestly, still trying to teach people they are full of the devil, because you read this verse and don’t understand what Paul is teaching?


I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-22


The law of sin resides in our physical bodies, so Paul is teaching that we as Christians, are to live our lives according to the Spirit within us, and not according to the sin in our flesh.
I wish you had included the "cure" for the law of sin.
It is mentioned in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
The conclusion is to therefore walk according to the Spirit.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
If born again Christians live according to the desires of our flesh we will die; we will not inherit the kingdom of God JLB
 

Butch5

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When many, many verses state that what is needed to be saved is faith and nothing else is needed then it is logical to believe nothing else is needed unless it can be found else where. You gave a verse that included WORKS and I said why WORKS did not apply. You are free to disagree with my reasoning.
[/QUOTE]
We're not given a checklist in Scripture. Unless there is a passage that states unequivocally that faith alone saves, that argument is fallacious. It's an argument from Silence. The argument is that since something isn't stated it isn't needed. Again, that's fallacious. On the other hand we are given additional requirements as I've already pointed out. Christ became eternal salvation for those who obey. That shows that obedience is necessary. Jesus said, 'he who believes and is baptized shall be saved'. That shows us that baptism is necessary. Paul said, 'whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved'. That shows us that calling on the name of the Lord is necessary.

There are numerous verses stating we are NOT saved by works. Your turn to explain them.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. AMP When you get to heaven you can brag about how you teamed up with the all mighty and together the two of you saved yourself. Kudos to you. Brings new meaning to the word gift/grace ... something you have to work for
Isaiah 64:6 And all our deeds of righteousness are like filthy rags; You state your 'filthy rags' are a part of your propitiation of God
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of [breaking] all of it. You say you are saved by faith and works, yet your works show you have fallen short and broken the whole law (unless you are sinless as some report on this site)
Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. Justification is needed for salvation. You state you are saved/justified by works which contradicts scripture IMO.
Galatians 2:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Your answer is YES.
...not to mention all the verses that say you are saved by faith and nothing else is mentioned.

[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of verses that say one is not saved by works. As I pointed out, the works are the Mosaic Law. We don't get to define that terms that Paul uses, we have to use his terms. If we read Paul's statements in context we see that in virtually every place he talks about works, he mentions the Law of Moses. You posted Ephesians 2:8. Let's look at the context.



8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:8-19 KJV)



What we see here is Paul explaining to the Gentiles how it is that they are not saved by works. Paul says that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition. This is a reference to the temple. In the temple there was a wall which the Gentiles could not pass. Only the Jews could pass it. This wall separated the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul is saying that in Christ this separation, this wall, has been done away with. He goes on to say that Christ has abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances. That's the Law of Moses
 

Butch5

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Fastfredy0

Continued.

Isaiah 64:6, lets look at it in context.

15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.
KJV Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!
3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
12 Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?

KJV Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. (Isa. 63:15-65:7 KJV)



It's pretty clear from the context here that Isaiah is pleading with God on behalf of Israel. It is Isaiah who said that Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags. God didn't say that. Isaiah is recognizing Israel's sins before God and he humbles them. There is nothing here that would indicate that God sees man's righteous acts as filthy rages.



Looking at James 2:10. Here again we see reference to the Mosaic Law. If you read the 15th chapter of Acts you'll see that there were those from Jerusalem, who believed, who said that the Gentiles must also keep the Law of Moses in addition to faith in Christ. The whole chapter is about Paul, the Apostles, and the Elders, in the church at Jerusalem wrestling over the question, do the Gentiles need to keep the Law. Notice that the translators capitalized the word Law. They understand that he's referring to the Mosaic Law.



Galatians 2:16. Again, the works of the Mosaic Law. Notice again that Law is capitalized.

Galatians 3:2. Again, the works of the Law. Probably the biggest issue Paul faced in his ministry was that of the Judaizers. These we men who believed who came from the church in Jerusalem telling Paul's converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to keep the Law of Moses. This is the background for Paul's arguments that one isn't saved by works. He's not saying there is nothing else required for salvation than faith. He's arguing that it's not necessary to keep the Law of Moses.



And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Acts 15:1-2 KJV)



Here's the conclusion of the matter.



22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, (Acts 15:22-25 KJV)



So Paul and Barnabas went up to Jerusalem to meet with the Apostles and Elders to settle the question, do the Gentiles need to keep the Law. Notice the letter they sent acknowledging that some had gone out from them subverting the souls of the Gentiles telling them they needed to keep the Law of Moses. Again, this is the background for all of Paul's teaching on works.
 

Butch5

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Fastfredy0

Continued.

Not sure I follow. Seems I am on the side of Paul and you are on the side of the opponents. I would think you would rather be on Paul's side.
The argument was faith with the Law vs. faith without the Law. It wasn't faith with baptism vs. faith without baptism. It wasn't faith with helping old ladies cross the street vs. faith without helping old ladies cross the street. In other words the argument was strictly limited to keeping the Mosaic Law. He's not saying works are "anything" a person does, as many Christians claim. He was specifically addressing the works of the Mosaic Law, not any other works. If he did that then he'd have contradicted himself because in Romans 2 he said that those who continue in doing good deeds were seeking eternal life. If works played no role in salvation then doing them would not be seeking eternal life.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, (Rom. 2:5-8 KJV)

Here Paul states plainly that doing good deeds is seeking eternal life.

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus.
There seems to be a contradiction. I argue that Paul speaks of being justified in God's eyes and James speaks of being justified in the eyes of men (I could expand, but keeping this short). How do you explain the contradiction?
The problem with that idea is that there were no men there. It was Abraham, Isaac, and God. No men were there. Abraham was justified before God.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba. (Gen. 22:1-19 KJV)

Paul also references this passage.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. (Heb. 11:17-19 KJV)
Agreed. All those that have faith in Christ will obey him. The verse does not say (as you imply) that works saved him. It just says those that are saved will have works. In other words, the verse does not say whether WORKS is the cause or the effect of Salvation. Your bias assumes WORKS to be the cause. I, though I have a bias, say the verse does not explicitly address the question: IS ONE SAVED BY WORKS?
I grant that if this was the only verse in the bible I would put my money on your contention, but many verses (some of which I cited) contradict your interpretation and thus an alternate explanation is needed.
You've just refuted your argument. I used the same argument that you used. You said the verses you cited didn't give any requirement but one. Thus that one requirement is all that is necessary. I used your argument. I cited a passage that essentially says one is saved by obedience, with no other requirement. If your argument is correct, then so is mine. The problem is that we then have two exclusive ways to be saved. There can't be two. That leaves us with two options. Either there's an error in Scripture, or this line of argumentation is invalid. The fact that we can both use the same argument to draw mutually exclusive points shows clearly that this line of argumentation is wrong. And, it is. It's the fallacy of the Argument from Silence. It's like saying the Bible doesn't tell us that the apostles went to the bathroom, therefore they never did. We obviously know that they did, thus that line of reasoning is incorrect.

You said, "I grant that if this was the only verse in the bible I would put my money on your contention, but many verses (some of which I cited) contradict your interpretation and thus an alternate explanation is needed."

You've made my point. Since there are other passages that speak of other requirements for salvation your contention that it is by faith alone cannot stand. Jesus said those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. He added baptism. Paul said, 'whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved'. He added calling on the Lord. Paul said that Christ became eternal salvation to those who obey. He added obedience. We see there are more than just one requirement.
 

Fastfredy0

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Re: what is needed to be saved
We're not given a checklist in Scripture.
Agreed.

Unless there is a passage that states unequivocally that faith alone saves, that argument is fallacious. It's an argument from Silence.
John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
But is the scripture silent. John 20:31 states the purpose of the book is salvation. I assume you agree to this that what ever is needed for salvation is in John. I assume we both agree faith is needed for salvation. Where in John does it say we must do works as a cause of our salvation. It should be there as the purpose of John is to give information on salvation.

The argument is that since something isn't stated it isn't needed.
I agree that just because something isn't stated does not mean it is not needed though I would say there is a implication. I can say you make coffee with hot water, sugar and coffee. One assumes nothing else is needed. It is possible coffee could also include milk, but till that statement is made it is implied that coffee doesn't include milk; otherwise, the purpose of giving the recipe for coffee incomplete.
But again, in John that the purpose of the book is salvation of men and therefore I think it is safe to assume everything needed for salvation is in that book. Where in John does it say we must do works as a cause of our salvation?


On the other hand we are given additional requirements as I've already pointed out. Christ became eternal salvation for those who obey. That shows that obedience is necessary.
Agreed. But this does not answer the question: Why did you obey. Is obedience the cause of salvation or the effect of salvation (faith). The verse does not say. You must search for the answer elsewhere.


Jesus said, 'he who believes and is baptized shall be saved'. That shows us that baptism is necessary.
Well, the verse doesn't clarify whether it refer to water baptism or spiritual baptism. Using your logic of no assumptions from silence ... I won't bother to continue analyzing the statement save to say Mark 16:9-20 is not found in older manuscripts and is therefore suspect.

Paul said, 'whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved'. That shows us that calling on the name of the Lord is necessary.
One would have to define "calls on the name of the Lord". I would save it is equivalent to 'believing on the Lord'. Thus, since this is the only condition for salvation the verse supports my contention that we are saved by FAITH ALONE. Aside: I could use verse references ... thank you Dr. Google for finding them for me


As I pointed out, the works are the Mosaic Law.
I agree that works are the Mosaic Law. Where does it say WORKS only consist of the Mosaic law.
When the experts translated the Greek to English the English word can be found in the dictionary.
Work = activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
Therefore, when you see WORK it means what the dictionary says. You can't write your own dictionary.
In other words, the translators didn't transcribe the Greek for MOSAIC LAW to WORK... there translated the Greek work for WORK to WORK.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The translators use the word WORKS in verse 9
In the Butch5 version of the bible you use: "Not of [Mosaic Law], lest any man should boast. I think you take too much liberty. Maybe this is a point of contention we cannot agree upon and may be the crux of our disagreement.


What we see here is Paul explaining to the Gentiles how it is that they are not saved by works. Paul says that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition. This is a reference to the temple. In the temple there was a wall which the Gentiles could not pass. Only the Jews could pass it. This wall separated the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul is saying that in Christ this separation, this wall, has been done away with. He goes on to say that Christ has abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances. That's the Law of Moses
I don't see how this justifies your belief that WORKS = MOSAIC LAW only

Aside: At least you give a clear argument ... and apparently a long one .....
 

Fastfredy0

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It's pretty clear from the context here that Isaiah is pleading with God on behalf of Israel. It is Isaiah who said that Israel's righteousness was as filthy rags.
Good point. I withdraw the verse as an argument

I see your argument relies on the definition of WORKS. That we are not saved by WORKS of the MOSAIC LAW but we are saved by other WORKS.
Seems we are at an impasse and I am not motivated enough to go there next.

Gee... you are still typing .. :shame
 

Fastfredy0

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The argument was faith with the Law vs. faith without the Law. It wasn't faith with baptism vs. faith without baptism. It wasn't faith with helping old ladies cross the street vs. faith without helping old ladies cross the street. In other words the argument was strictly limited to keeping the Mosaic Law. He's not saying works are "anything" a person does, as many Christians claim. He was specifically addressing the works of the Mosaic Law, not any other works.
Took awhile, but I understand your point. You define WORKS differently than I.


If works played no role in salvation then doing them would not be seeking eternal life.
Perhaps we have another definition issue regarding SALVATION. Clarification may be needed.
1) Salvation can be the point at which one is saved or
2) Salvation can be the process by which one is saved (including sanctification for example)

I have been talking to the first definition.
I agree that WORKS is part of the second definition.



The problem with that idea is that there were no men there. It was Abraham, Isaac, and God. No men were there. Abraham was justified before God.
Ah, you misunderstood what I meant. These posts are getting long. I will not try to explain. I see how you could think I meant "A" when I meant "B".



You've just refuted your argument. I used the same argument that you used. You said the verses you cited didn't give any requirement but one. Thus that one requirement is all that is necessary. I used your argument. I cited a passage that essentially says one is saved by obedience, with no other requirement. If your argument is correct, then so is mine. The problem is that we then have two exclusive ways to be saved. There can't be two. That leaves us with two options. Either there's an error in Scripture, or this line of argumentation is invalid. The fact that we can both use the same argument to draw mutually exclusive points shows clearly that this line of argumentation is wrong. And, it is. It's the fallacy of the Argument from Silence. It's like saying the Bible doesn't tell us that the apostles went to the bathroom, therefore they never did. We obviously know that they did, thus that line of reasoning is incorrect.
I think it is more likely that there is a misunderstanding. These posts are getting tangled. For example, I wasn't clear as to what verses I was referring to that you were referring too ... or something like that .... LOL. This median is not always conducive to clear communication.
That being said, you do a much much better job than most. Kudos to you for that and props for addressing my verses.
 

Butch5

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Re: what is needed to be saved

Agreed.


John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
But is the scripture silent. John 20:31 states the purpose of the book is salvation. I assume you agree to this that what ever is needed for salvation is in John. I assume we both agree faith is needed for salvation. Where in John does it say we must do works as a cause of our salvation. It should be there as the purpose of John is to give information on salvation.
He gives information showing that Jesus is the Christ. Again, no checklist. Unless you are suggesting that John's writings are opposed to those of the other apostles. Is that your contention?
I agree that just because something isn't stated does not mean it is not needed though I would say there is a implication. I can say you make coffee with hot water, sugar and coffee. One assumes nothing else is needed. It is possible coffee could also include milk, but till that statement is made it is implied that coffee doesn't include milk; otherwise, the purpose of giving the recipe for coffee incomplete.
But again, in John that the purpose of the book is salvation of men and therefore I think it is safe to assume everything needed for salvation is in that book. Where in John does it say we must do works as a cause of our salvation?
Where do you see an implication? Again, are you suggesting that John's writings oppose those of the other apostles? The purpose of John's book was to prove that Jesus is the Christ. It was necessary, to be saved, that one believe that Jesus is the Christ. Look at the passage closely.

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Jn. 20:31 KJV)

Notice that John says, by believing that Jesus is the Christ you "might" have life in His name. He didn't say you will have life in His name. That indicates that there is something else necessary. If it was simply believing what John wrote then he should have said one will have life in His name. He doesn't say that. he says "might" have life in His name. The word might indicates that some other factor is in play.
Agreed. But this does not answer the question: Why did you obey. Is obedience the cause of salvation or the effect of salvation (faith). The verse does not say. You must search for the answer elsewhere.
The question of why they obey isn't relevant to the argument. Your argument was that one condition was listed and that's all that's needed. I used the same argument. The verse doesn't state it but it does give us the answer. Since no one is yet saved, obedience must then precede salvation, thus it is a cause, not a result.

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
(Mk. 10:29-30 NKJ)


According to Jesus, eternal life is given in the next age.

Peter tells us that salvation is to be revealed at the coming of Jesus Christ.

8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 receiving the end of your faith-- the salvation of your souls.
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things which angels desire to look into.
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (1 Pet. 1:8-13 NKJ)


Salvation is a a process. The Scriptures speak of salvation in three tenses, past, present, and future, thus showing it is a process
Well, the verse doesn't clarify whether it refer to water baptism or spiritual baptism. Using your logic of no assumptions from silence ... I won't bother to continue analyzing the statement save to say Mark 16:9-20 is not found in older manuscripts and is therefore suspect.
We know that water baptism was given to every Christian. At the time Jesus said that there was no baptism of the spirit, it had not been given yet. That only leaves water baptism.

Regarding the absence in the Alexandrian writings, it's not surprising. Alexandria was a hot bed of Gnosticism and the Gnostics were notorious for editing the Scriptures. The passage is mentioned in the early Christian writings at least 200 years prior to the Alexandrian texts so it was in existence before those texts were written.
One would have to define "calls on the name of the Lord". I would save it is equivalent to 'believing on the Lord'. Thus, since this is the only condition for salvation the verse supports my contention that we are saved by FAITH ALONE. Aside: I could use verse references ... thank you Dr. Google for finding them for me
It was only one of several conditions listed
I agree that works are the Mosaic Law. Where does it say WORKS only consist of the Mosaic law.
When the experts translated the Greek to English the English word can be found in the dictionary.
Work = activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
Therefore, when you see WORK it means what the dictionary says. You can't write your own dictionary.
In other words, the translators didn't transcribe the Greek for MOSAIC LAW to WORK... there translated the Greek work for WORK to WORK.
So, is it your argument that we take a 21st century definition and impose it one a 1st century writing. That it's only the Mosaic Law can be seen in the context and in the historical setting. As I pointed out Paul said those who continue is good deeds are seeking eternal life. Would you suggest that Paul is contradicting himself?
The translators use the word WORKS in verse 9
In the Butch5 version of the bible you use: "Not of [Mosaic Law], lest any man should boast. I think you take too much liberty. Maybe this is a point of contention we cannot agree upon and may be the crux of our disagreement.
Again, there is no justification to say it's anything other than the Law. Paul explicitly states that they were not saved by works and explains how. That Jesus broke down the wall of separation and abolished the Law of Moses. It's right there.

This is the problem with proof texting. We can't just take one sentence, out of context, and apply whatever meaning we want to it. At least not and say we're exegeting the passage.
I don't see how this justifies your belief that WORKS = MOSAIC LAW only

Aside: At least you give a clear argument ... and apparently a long one .....
It's the context. Where do you find Paul talking about works and not the Law? And, again, if he meant works were anything one does, he'd be contradicting what he said in Romans 2.
 

Butch5

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Took awhile, but I understand your point. You define WORKS differently than I.



Perhaps we have another definition issue regarding SALVATION. Clarification may be needed.
1) Salvation can be the point at which one is saved or
2) Salvation can be the process by which one is saved (including sanctification for example)

I have been talking to the first definition.
I agree that WORKS is part of the second definition.




Ah, you misunderstood what I meant. These posts are getting long. I will not try to explain. I see how you could think I meant "A" when I meant "B".




I think it is more likely that there is a misunderstanding. These posts are getting tangled. For example, I wasn't clear as to what verses I was referring to that you were referring too ... or something like that .... LOL. This median is not always conducive to clear communication.
That being said, you do a much much better job than most. Kudos to you for that and props for addressing my verses.
You're welcome! I look at the context of each passage. What I find is that whenever Paul is talking about not being saved by works, he talks about the Mosaic Law. In the one or two passages that he speaks of works not of the Law he shows their necessity. Regarding salvation, I see it as a process. Scripture uses the term in the past, present, and futures tenses. That suggests to me that it is a process. Peter talks about salvation being revealed at the coming of Christ. If that's when it's revealed, then I don't have it now. I have the promise of it. Paul calls it the down payment in Ephesians 1. The KJV calls it the earnest.

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:14 KJV)

Paul calls their being saved an earnest until the redemption of the purchased possession. The redemption is yet future.

The posts do get long. I'm sorry about that. It is necessary though to explain where I'm coming from. I'm coming from a different perspective on the Scriptures than anyone else on this board, so I have to explain that or people will look at what I say through their own understanding of Scripture which most often doesn't align with mine.

Thanks for the discussion! I enjoy them. We may not always agree, but it's always a good discussion. There aren't too many of those.
 

JLB

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When many, many verses state that what is needed to be saved is faith and nothing else

No verses state any such thing.


I have asked you several times to post a verse that says we are saved by “faith alone”.


It’s obvious you don’t understand the principle of faith that is stated in scripture.


Faith


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17


The “work” that the scripture refers to here is the “work” of obedience.


Here is the biblical example —


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


The “work” was to obey the Lord, to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


That’s why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Look in Hebrews 11 and you will discover that each person obeyed the word by which they received faith from God.


In addition we must also have grace with faith to be saved.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8



Faith must have grace.

Grace is the God given ability to obey the word of faith.




JLB
 
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