Faith and Works

[glorydaz]

When was faith instituded?

Foreseeing-Beforehand-would justify

Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV

Note the words foreseeing, would justify, beforehand. They clearly indicate that faith was not instituted at that time. It was to be a future event.

All this was done "by faith". They were all justified by their faith..faith had been "instituted", they just had to wait until Jesus had been resurrected to obtain the reward for their faith.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But
now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. ......

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Joe67]

Jesus has the keys of hell and death through faith and grace.

The key of hell through faith frees us from our burdens under sin at the call of God and promise of God to leave our father's house and go to a place that God will shew us.

The key of death through grace gives us works of ministry to the strangers and aliens as we are set apart for ministry to gather the elect of God into the sheepfold.

We are God's workmanship in both works. Neither of these works are works of law.

Look at Abraham's and Rahab's works listed in James. They are not works of the law. They are not works that the camp of Abraham or the nation of Rahab would have praised them for these works. These are works that are shameful and full of reproach and life endangering.

Joe

 

[veteran]

***The message of James does not mix faith and works in salvation. Salvation, or justification is by faith alone. The message of James does not contradict Paul, but compliments Paul because James defines true faith. True faith involves a change of life. The order must be kept strait. Christians do not do works to become saved. Christians do works because they are saved, and this is the message of James 2.

Exactly. When God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in Moriah (chosen by Yahaveh), God had already given Abraham the Promise that Salvation would go forth through his seed, specifically his son Isaac. Abraham believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness by Faith. Even when Abraham had prepared the altar to sacrifice Isaac in obeying God, Isaac asked Abraham where the lamb for slaughter was. Abraham answered that God will provide a lamb for burnt offerring, still showing his Faith in the test. Then God told Abraham because he had not withheld his only son, that He would bless Abraham and multiply his seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand upon the sea shore.

It's in that way which Faith is justified or proven by works. What good would it be if Abraham had believed only, and had no works to back it up? And if God tested Abraham like that, it shows He will also test our Faith through works. What good are we to The LORD if we have Faith only, and not works to prove our Faith? How can we serve Him without our Faith including works? And God's blessings came after... Abraham proved his Faith, which is the pattern if we want God's blessings in our own lives.

 

[chestertonrules]

It is a mistake to focus on what James wrote and miss out on what Paul wrote

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Is James right?

According to Paul he is!

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Romans 2
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

1 Cor 9
27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 Tim 6
11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

 

[RichardBurger]

I was doing a little Bible study the other day, and I think I have a clearer idea (at least in my mind) of how faith and works intermingle.

I started off reading John the Baptist's message in Luke 3. When the people ask how they should respond to John's message of repentance, he gives different groups of people specific actions that they should take, such as sharing clothing and food with those who are in need.

snip ---

It later states "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?"
He isn't justified by a work of the Law that says "if I do such and such, then God owe's me salvation." He is justified by a work of faith that says "I believe that God has promised such and such, and therefore I will respond in obedience."

snip --

So, I see works as a vehicle for our faith. Works by themselves without faith, however, are just man's stinking attempts to earn God's favor. It can't be done.

What I see is that Abraham was justified, before Isaac was born, just because he (Abraham) believed what God told him. --- Today we are saved, and kept saved, just because we believe God's word (message) of grace given to us through Paul.

 

[chestertonrules]

What I see is that Abraham was justified, before Isaac was born, just because he (Abraham) believed what God told him. --- Today we are saved, and kept saved, just because we believe God's word (message) of grace given to us through Paul.

James 2
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

[glorydaz]

What I see is that Abraham was justified, before Isaac was born, just because he (Abraham) believed what God told him. --- Today we are saved, and kept saved, just because we believe God's word (message) of grace given to us through Paul.

James 2
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Justified before men, but not before God....faith justifies us before God.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

 

[chestertonrules]

[

James 2
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Justified before men, but not before God....faith justifies us before God.

That's not what the bible says. You are inserting your doctrine into scripture.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

That's not all he says. Grace enables salvation, but we must cooperate with God's grace in order for it to be effective:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[glorydaz]

[

James 2
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Justified before men, but not before God....faith justifies us before God.

That's not what the bible says. You are inserting your doctrine into scripture.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

That's not all he says. Grace enables salvation, but we must cooperate with God's grace in order for it to be effective:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Actually, that's exactly what scripture says, so I'm not the one inserting doctrine, you are.
The verse you give has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Our good works are a consequence of our being justified.
Let's not put the cart before the horse.

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="glorydaz ]

Actually, that's exactly what scripture says, so I'm not the one inserting doctrine, you are.
The verse you give has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Our good works are a consequence of our being justified.
Let's not put the cart before the horse.[/quote]


Are you reading the same bible I am? Sowing comes before reaping. Will you please read this slowly:

Gal 6


Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[glorydaz]

Are you reading the same bible I am? Sowing comes before reaping. Will you please read this slowly:

Gal 6


Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

You deny the scripture I post and then you accuse me of not reading slowly enough.

Reaping and sowing has nothing to do with being justified before God.
If we reaped what we'd sown, we'd get death.
We can't reap eternal life until we believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

We are justified by our faith in Jesus Christ.
Good deeds are a by-product of having Christ in us.

Let's try this again...Abraham was justified by believing God. That happened before Isaac was even conceived. The result of his belief and justification was his obedience and offering his son Isaac.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

We can't put the cart before the horse. They don't even go side by side. First comes faith and justification and then good deeds follow.

 

[chestertonrules]

was counted unto him for righteousness.

We can't put the cart before the horse. They don't even go side by side. First comes faith and justification and then good deeds follow.[/quote]


Do you believe this or not?

Gal 6

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[glorydaz]

We can't put the cart before the horse. They don't even go side by side. First comes faith and justification and then good deeds follow.

Do you believe this or not?

Gal 6

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Of course I do...those who reject the Gospel, and trust only in the rites and ceremonies of the law for salvation, will reap endless disappointment and misery. Those who trust in Christ, and receive the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit, will reap life everlasting.

Those who have been born again are new creatures...we walk after the spirit.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

And do you believe this?

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

And this?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Joe67]

The following is faith that is made complete through the working of grace.

Rom 4:16-18
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. KJV

Through the power of faith God calls things that are not as though they were.

Through the wisdom of grace he raises the dead.

Joe