Faith in themselves, not in God

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian,

You are also saying that the human will is stronger than God's which of course, is blasphemy and the sin of pride, I might add.

No the sin of pride is not reading my posts. I NEVER said that man's will was stonger than Gods.

And since you do not undertsand the power of the Holy Spirit, then I can see why you are worried about your salvation!! Until you receive the Holy Spirit, you will not understand that once God heals you of blindness you will always be able to see. "We become a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come."

Who says I am worried about my salvation? I trust that Jesus Christ will lead me to the heavenly kingdom. As long as I trust in him I am not worried about my salvation. You are distorting what I believe and as you can see I have little tolerance for that. Now answer the question. Do you sin?

It appears that you have a lot of bible study to do so that you not only understand that God's power is much stronger than either the human will or the devil, but that you won't contradict scripture too.

do you sin? Be sure and study John's letters before you answer. I wouldn't want you to be called a liar by the Bible.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian,

You are also saying that the human will is stronger than God's which of course, is blasphemy and the sin of pride, I might add.

No the sin of pride is not reading my posts. I NEVER said that man's will was stonger than Gods.

And since you do not undertsand the power of the Holy Spirit, then I can see why you are worried about your salvation!! Until you receive the Holy Spirit, you will not understand that once God heals you of blindness you will always be able to see. "We become a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come."

Who says I am worried about my salvation? I trust that Jesus Christ will lead me to the heavenly kingdom. As long as I trust in him I am not worried about my salvation. You are distorting what I believe and as you can see I have little tolerance for that. Now answer the question. Do you sin?

It appears that you have a lot of bible study to do so that you not only understand that God's power is much stronger than either the human will or the devil, but that you won't contradict scripture too.

do you sin? Be sure and study John's letters before you answer. I wouldn't want you to be called a liar by the Bible.

 

[thessalonian]

So are you saying that the Holy spirit is not stronger than the devil? Yes or no. Once you answer that qeustion, you will have also answered the questions you posed to me.

Apparently you didn't bother to read my post. I said "No, I don't think that the Holy Spirit is weaker than the devil. ". How many ways do I have to say no. Now you have not answered my question. Do you still sin? If the Holy Spirit is stronger than sin and God always gives you a way out when you sin, how is it that you sin? You have given no explanation. Do you sin?

But you contradicted yourself in your post. None of us is above God or the devil. We are ruled by one or the other. God tries to bring us to him, and the devil tries to keep us from God. So saying that the devil is not more powerful than the HS but that humans are, is saying that the devil is more powerful than the HS because who do you think keeps us from God? :o

I never said we are stonger than God. Forgive me for this analogy but it is a good one. Does the husband rape his wife in order to make love to her. He has the strength to do so. But it would not be love. Does it make the woman stonger than the man if she is not in the mood to make love and so asks him to refrain till a better time? God out of love for us does not force himself upon us even though he most certainly could. It does not make us stonger than him if he lets us excercise our will. Now I ask again, do you sin?

 

[Heidi]

Thessalonian,

You said;

"I do believe the Holy Spirit will not violate our will and if our will leads us to sin he will not stop us." How is this not saying that our will is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Again, who is stronger in us, the Holy Spirit or our will? :o Paul answers this:

Paul said, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

 

[thessalonian]

By the way, wasn't it you somewhere who said that those who do not do many works loose some of their reward or perhaps all of it? Now it seems to me that if we do not do all the works that God has for us to do to gain our full reward then we resist the Holy Spirit. So it seems you are contradicting yourself.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian,

You said;

"I do believe the Holy Spirit will not violate our will and if our will leads us to sin he will not stop us." How is this not saying that our will is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Again, who is stronger in us, the Holy Spirit or our will? :o Paul answers this:

Paul said, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

You must have missed my analogy above. Do you sin or don't you. It's a simple question. A yes or no will do.

 

[Heidi]

To whom are you talking? It couldn't be me because I have never said such a thing nor will you ever find a post of mine that says that. This is another perfect example of how you twist people's words.

 

[Heidi]

Thessalonian,

You said;

"I do believe the Holy Spirit will not violate our will and if our will leads us to sin he will not stop us." How is this not saying that our will is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Again, who is stronger in us, the Holy Spirit or our will? :o Paul answers this:

Paul said, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

You must have missed my analogy above. Do you sin or don't you. It's a simple question. A yes or no will do.

Do you know why Jesus left the thorn in Paul's flesh even though Paul begged for him to take it away, Thessalonian? Do you know what Christ's response was? :-? he said; "my grace is sufficient for thee." And since Paul's will did not want that sin, then who do you think decided to leave it in him? Do you know why God left the thorn in Paul's flesh, Thessalonian? Paul explains it. "So that I will not become conceited." Do you understand that passage?

 

[thessalonian]

To whom are you talking? It couldn't be me because I have never said such a thing nor will you ever find a post of mine that says that. This is another perfect example of how you twist people's words.

No I am not twisting what you said. I could be mistaken. I will look up what you said and see where I might have went wrong. If you think that we all have equal reward and do all that the Holy Spirit prompts us to do then my apologies.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian,

You said;

"I do believe the Holy Spirit will not violate our will and if our will leads us to sin he will not stop us." How is this not saying that our will is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Again, who is stronger in us, the Holy Spirit or our will? :o Paul answers this:

Paul said, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

You must have missed my analogy above. Do you sin or don't you. It's a simple question. A yes or no will do.

Do you know why Jesus left the thorn in Paul's flesh even though Paul begged for him to take it away, Thessalonian? Do you know what Christ's response was? :-? he said; "my grace is sufficient for thee." And since Paul's will did not want that sin, then who do you think decided to leave it in him? Do you know why God left the thorn in Paul's flesh, Thessalonian? Paul explains it. "So that I will not become conceited." Do you understand that passage?

The thorn was not a sin. It was an illness. God gives us the grace not to sin. Do you sin or don't you.

 

[Heidi]

Thessalonian,

You said;

"I do believe the Holy Spirit will not violate our will and if our will leads us to sin he will not stop us." How is this not saying that our will is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Again, who is stronger in us, the Holy Spirit or our will? :o Paul answers this:

Paul said, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

You must have missed my analogy above. Do you sin or don't you. It's a simple question. A yes or no will do.

Do you know why Jesus left the thorn in Paul's flesh even though Paul begged for him to take it away, Thessalonian? Do you know what Christ's response was? :-? he said; "my grace is sufficient for thee." And since Paul's will did not want that sin, then who do you think decided to leave it in him? Do you know why God left the thorn in Paul's flesh, Thessalonian? Paul explains it. "So that I will not become conceited." Do you understand that passage?

The thorn was not a sin. It was an illness. God gives us the grace not to sin. Do you sin or don't you.

You have shown that you not only twist people's words but the bible's as well.

2 Corinthians 7, "...there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of satan, to torment me." This says nothing about an illness but speaks of the devil's torment. Again, Paul begged God to take it away, but God chose not to.

So your question, which is trying to prove the bible wrong when it says that "the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world" will not work because you cannot prove the bible wrong no matter how much you try. Therefore, whatever sins are left in us are because only God knows how much each one of us can bear. "To whom much is given, much is required."

Therefore, your question of whether or not I still sin does not at all negate the fact that "the one who is in me is greater than the one in the world."

 

[Free]

You have shown that you not only twist people's words but the bible's as well.

2 Corinthians 7, "...there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of satan, to torment me." This says nothing about an illness but speaks of the devil's torment. Again, Paul begged God to take it away, but God chose not to.

If you think that by saying that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was an illness is twisting Scripture, then you are just as guilty. The Bible does not say what that thorn was and any attempt to put a name on it is pure speculation. Having said that, Paul does speak of having an illness:

Gal 4:13 You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first,

Gal 6:11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.
(Possibly a symptom of the ailment).

Onto something a little more interesting. In your quote of 2 Cor. 12:7, the "12" was missing and so I thought it was a quote from 2 Cor. 7. As it turns out, I found an interesting passage in 2 Cor. 7:

2Co 7:8 For even if I made you grieve with my letter, I do not regret it--though I did regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while.
2Co 7:9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us.
2Co 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

And that was written in the context of Christians whose grief brought them to repentance, "repentance that leads to salvation". How is it that Christians, who were in sin, can be said to be lead to salvation?

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian,

You said;

"I do believe the Holy Spirit will not violate our will and if our will leads us to sin he will not stop us." How is this not saying that our will is stronger than the Holy Spirit? :o Again, who is stronger in us, the Holy Spirit or our will? :o Paul answers this:

Paul said, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

You must have missed my analogy above. Do you sin or don't you. It's a simple question. A yes or no will do.

Do you know why Jesus left the thorn in Paul's flesh even though Paul begged for him to take it away, Thessalonian? Do you know what Christ's response was? :-? he said; "my grace is sufficient for thee." And since Paul's will did not want that sin, then who do you think decided to leave it in him? Do you know why God left the thorn in Paul's flesh, Thessalonian? Paul explains it. "So that I will not become conceited." Do you understand that passage?

The thorn was not a sin. It was an illness. God gives us the grace not to sin. Do you sin or don't you.

You have shown that you not only twist people's words but the bible's as well.

2 Corinthians 7, "...there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of satan, to torment me." This says nothing about an illness but speaks of the devil's torment. Again, Paul begged God to take it away, but God chose not to.

So your question, which is trying to prove the bible wrong when it says that "the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world" will not work because you cannot prove the bible wrong no matter how much you try. Therefore, whatever sins are left in us are because only God knows how much each one of us can bear. "To whom much is given, much is required."

Therefore, your question of whether or not I still sin does not at all negate the fact that "the one who is in me is greater than the one in the world."

I'm not trying to prove the Bible wrong but the words that you put to it that distort it. The interpretation you claim you do not do. :-? Now he could be talking about temptation in the passage but temptation is not sin. We cannot attribute our sins to God as your theory does. As Free says, Paul has an ailment and that is what most scholars, Protestant and Catholic, believe that he was speaking of as his thorn. The scriptures tell us that when we are tempted God always gives us a way out. In other words the Holy Spirit in us directs us out of the sin. Yet we still sin. If God gives us a way out and Paul is not taking it your words are blaming God for his sin because God has not freed him from it. It is never God's will to leave a man enslaved by his sin yet that is what you would have us believe about Paul. Jesus says "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" but you say that Paul was not freed from a sin. The truth was unable to free him because God wouldn't let it.

Now are you going to answer my question? Do you sin? I hope you read 1 John last night before answering.

 

[Heidi]

Then why was the reason given, "so that I will not become conceited" if the thorn was an illness that Paul couldn't help?

None of us will ever become sinless because then we would be worshipped right along with Christ. Read the passage in Romans where Paul says, "Why do I do that that I do not want to do and that which I want to do, I cannot." But then he thanks God for washing away his sins.

In addition, if we could ever become sinless then we could never grow could we? Unfrotunately, what most people don't realize is how much pride, envry, greed, , sloth, gluttony and anger we still have left in us. But because we have the Holy Spirit in us, he will convict us of sin every time we sin and bring us to forgiveness. So we are always growing toward perfection because "the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world." But we will never be as perfect as Christ so therefore, what saves us is not our works, but God's mercy.

 

[thessalonian]

Then why was the reason given, "so that I will not become conceited" if the thorn was an illness that Paul couldn't help?

In truth I think that the thorn was the illness and temptation that comes with illness. Temptation is not sin. Illness tends to bring one down and stand in the way of the work God wants us to do. Galations indicates that whatever the illness was it was an impediment to his minestry. In other places he indicates that he must press on with the Gospel, though it is apparently somewhat difficult for him.

None of us will ever become sinless because then we would be worshipped right along with Christ.

This sentence carries false logic with it. Angels are sinless, so do you worship them? Sinlessness DOES NOT equal diety. God is sinless no doudt but what you are saying is that Adam and Eve, who were sinless in the garden, were worthy of worship. You are also saying that after we die and when we are in heave we should be worshipped. We must in fact become sinless, for the scriptures say that there is no sin in heaven. It also says that nothing unclean shall enter. Thus we will not be arguing and lusting and lying in heaven.

Read the passage in Romans where Paul says, "Why do I do that that I do not want to do and that which I want to do, I cannot." But then he thanks God for washing away his sins.

I've read it many times and am very familiar with it. Paul sins. No question about it. God washed away those sins when he repented of them, no question about it. But to say that the Holy Spirit allows us to sin is contradictory to what scripture teaches. God allows temptation but it says that he will give us a way out so that we do not sin. If we sin it is quite clearly our fault, not his. Yes we can be forgiven and the sin can be washed clean afterwards, for "where there is sin grace abounds". It does not however mean that he intentionally allows us to sin. He came so that we might overcome sin in our lives. That we might root it out. James says "resist the devil that he will flee".Jas.4:7. Paul in Hebr 12 says that we are to resist sin to death.
Yet you have the verse in corinthians saying that Paul cannot resist the devil or make him flee because God won't allow it.

In addition, if we could ever become sinless then we could never grow could we? Unfrotunately, what most people don't realize is how much pride, envry, greed, , sloth, gluttony and anger we still have left in us.

I agree that there is alot of sin in us. But it is not because God leaves it there. It is because we do not acknowledge the sin that is still in us and we resist his grace. In the story of the banquet all were given invitations to the banquet. The garmets were freely given to them if they choose to enter. Yet the proud did not enter and one man even refused to put on the garmet that was given. The garmet in the parable is grace. God freely gives it, but if we do not put it on we are responsible, not him.

As for not being able to grow if we were sinless, I don't completely agree with that. We can learn from our mistakes but we don't have to make mistakes to learn.

But because we have the Holy Spirit in us, he will convict us of sin every time we sin and bring us to forgiveness. So we are always growing toward perfection because "the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world." But we will never be as perfect as Christ so therefore, what saves us is not our works, but God's mercy.

Well actually before we enter heaven we must become perfect. As perfect as Christ in fact. That is completely without sin. Nothing unclean enters heaven. NOTHING. Once again perfection is not without diety. God did not give us an impossible command "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". The Holy Spirit does convict us of our sin but he does not force us to repent. I am sorry. Further, the Holy Spirit provides the grace to keep us from sinning before it happens. So we do not have to sin in order to recieve God's mercy, but we do sin and his mercy is available to us if we accept it and turn toward him. That however is not a done deal. He will not force himself upon us.

Blessings