Bible Study Faith or Works?

[sehad]

I have heard that we are saved by faith alone and I have heard some say that we are saved by works alone. I'm of the opinion that it takes both. What do you think and why? By asking why I want scriptural backing for your belief.

 

[thessalonian]

God's power working in and through us is what saves.

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

This is compatable with your both theory but puts it in a different light. The works we do are not OUR WORKS (which is what some find offensive) in the sense that we can do them on our own. It is God producing 30, 60, or 100 fold in and through us.

 

[JM]

Solo Christo! By Christ's work alone are we saved.

Sola Gratia, salvation is by Grace alone.

Sola Fide, and our justification by faith alone.

"The righteous man shall live by faith." (Galatians 3:6-11)

 

[thessalonian]

Perhaps you can show me where the Bible says we are justified by faith alone. I can show you where it says we are not. You might also want to check out Rom 2:4-8 and Mattt 25, sheep and goats which contradict your theology. I might add that in the context of walking in faith that produces works one can perhaps use the phrase, faith alone. The faith being neccessarily present and a reason for the works being performed. But it is an ongoing faith producing ongoing works.

 

[Georges]

Faith and works....Book of James, the brother of Jesus.

 

[ChristineES]

I will take it a bit further. If one has faith, then he will do works, it won't be a concious effort on his part. He will not even think about it, he will just do it.

 

[thessalonian]

I will take it a bit further. If one has faith, then he will do works, it won't be a concious effort on his part. He will not even think about it, he will just do it.

Ah irresistable grace. Grace cannot be irresistable biblically speaking. It is possible (in fact quite) for someone to have faith and not act upon it in a particular way that God directs them including works. Do you truly believe that you have done all the works in your life that God has given you to do? If you have not done them all you are capable of doing none for you can resist each one. Paul himself said "the good that I would do I do not while the evil that I would not do I do". Grace is not irresistable and the scriptures speak in many places of striving to do good so autopilot is not scriptural. Not to be contentious as I agree with you many times.

 

[JM]

Perhaps you can show me where the Bible says we are justified by faith alone. I can show you where it says we are not. You might also want to check out Rom 2:4-8 and Mattt 25, sheep and goats which contradict your theology. I might add that in the context of walking in faith that produces works one can perhaps use the phrase, faith alone. The faith being neccessarily present and a reason for the works being performed. But it is an ongoing faith producing ongoing works.

Pls, offer you understanding of each of these passage, so we may see how they "contradict" what I posted.

I might add that in the context of walking in faith that produces works one can perhaps use the phrase, faith alone.

:wink: Did I say anything different? What works can you do that adds to your salvation? Answer this question and then answer, how are we saved? You may want to see Paul's writtings where he tells us that we can't be saved by works, that works are produce by faith, and that faith is a gift of God and a fruit of the Holy Spirit. No where do Bible believers say we "need not works."

 

[JM]

I will take it a bit further. If one has faith, then he will do works, it won't be a concious effort on his part. He will not even think about it, he will just do it.

Ah irresistable grace. Grace cannot be irresistable biblically speaking. It is possible (in fact quite) for someone to have faith and not act upon it in a particular way that God directs them including works. Do you truly believe that you have done all the works in your life that God has given you to do? If you have not done them all you are capable of doing none for you can resist each one. Paul himself said "the good that I would do I do not while the evil that I would not do I do". Grace is not irresistable and the scriptures speak in many places of striving to do good so autopilot is not scriptural. Not to be contentious as I agree with you many times.

Irresistable Grace, I really don't like the term, I perfer Grace overcomes sin...I'll use conquering Grace.

John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;"

John 5:21, "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

John 10:16, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (See tract on Regeneration.)

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Ephesians 1:19-20, "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

1 Corinthians 4:7, "For who maketh thee to differ from another?"

As for the foundation of good works, we find there will and pleasure of IN GOD, not in man.

Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[thessalonian]

Let's not just talk past eachother here ( I may be guilty of that as well).

[quote:ccec4]I might add that in the context of walking in faith that produces works one can perhaps use the phrase, faith alone.

:wink: Did I say anything different? What works can you do that adds to your salvation? Answer this question and then answer, how are we saved? You may want to see Paul's writtings where he tells us that we can't be saved by works, that works are produce by faith, and that faith is a gift of God and a fruit of the Holy Spirit. No where do Bible believers say we "need not works."[/quote:ccec4][/quote]

Second part first. Well first of all a valid question is what does it mean to be "saved". For us it is not a permant, guaranteed situation from which we cannot fall. We are completely saved by grace, i.e. made a new creation, a child of God, right with God. That grace of salvation occurs when the Holy Spirit enters our soul at baptism. God is the saving element (Holy Spirit) which cleanses our soul. Prior to that nothing we do can be good or contribute to our salvation. Our works are filthy rags. In him our work is sanctified. It is in reality him working in and through us. It is not us adding to our salvation. It is not even salvation by works for of these works we cannot boast. They are by his power. "Without him we can do nothing. In him we can do all things.".

Perhaps you can show me where the Bible says we are justified by faith alone. I can show you where it says we are not. You might also want to check out Rom 2:4-8 and Mattt 25, sheep and goats which contradict your theology. I might add that in the context of walking in faith that produces works one can perhaps use the phrase, faith alone. The faith being neccessarily present and a reason for the works being performed. But it is an ongoing faith producing ongoing works.

Pls, offer you understanding of each of these passage, so we may see how they "contradict" what I posted.

The question is, when we go to the pearly gates will God ask an accounting of our time here on earth. The apparent answer is if we have not been about doing good, by his grace we are among the damned. If we don't have some good deeds in our bucket to present to him we didn't cut the grade. Now these works are not actually the cause of our salvation in one sense, i.e. that they are our works alone and we got ourselves in to heaven. They are a product of grace just as faith is actully a product of grace. Thus we are saved by grace alone. But in the sense that if we go to the gates without them we will not get in, I am sorry but they are a part of the salvation equation. God will give us opportunities to do good and the grace to do the good. That is where the failure lies in goats of Matt 25. He holds them accountable for what he asked them to do and they could not produce evidence of it. They had times in their lives where they saw the sick and naked and hungry and ignored them. When they ignored them they ignored Him! They ignored his grace! (once again irresistable grace is perhaps the doctrine I have the biggest problem with in scripture). They may have cried out "Lord, Lord" but they did not obey his commands and so fell off the path of salavation and the grace that they were in and he held them accountable for. If you agree with that then I have misstated your view and apologize.

Blessings

 

[Drew]

Since the topic of irresistable grace has been introduced, I will re-post a modified version of something I posted in past. This material challenges the notion that the John 6 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" text supports irresistable grace:

We start with the text of Jonh 6:37-40 as rendered in the NASB:

37. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

What exactly does “all that†in v37 and v. 39 refer to?

Calvinists will identify the "all that" in verses 37 and 39 as "those whom, in his great love, he elected long ago to save, and cannot help but be drawn into the Kingdom." We shall see that this is not the only possible conclusion when we consider the possible meanings of the "all that" found in verse 39 in light of the the content of verse 40, taking into account some significant structural similarities between v 39 and v. 40.

Note the parallel structure of verses 39 and 40 – they each have 3 clauses that map almost perfectly from one verse to the other. They both have the same A-B-C structure.

First, we should note the connective word "for" in verse 40. This establishes a logical connection between these two verses, suggesting an act of clarification on Jesus’ behalf. The "all that" in verse 39 whom the Father "has given" to Jesus is none other than "everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him" as per verse 40. You can probably see where I am going.

If we allow verse 40 to be used as a clarifying referent to disambiguate the "all that" in verse 39, the 2 verses taken together can be seen to be consistent with a reading that "all who freely come to believe in Jesus" are given to the Son by the Father. The people that are "given" are given in their state of already having freely (without an irresistable "tug") accepted Jesus' offer of salvation.

This text does not support an "irresistable grace" reading to the exclusion of other interpretations.

 

[Drew]

To address the issue of faith and works, I provide the following from Dallas Willard (author of "The Divine Conspiracy")

"....if we ask the 74 percent of Americans who say they have made a commitment to Jesus Christ what the Christian gospel is, you will probably be told that Jesus died to pay for our sins that if we will only believe he did this, we will go to heaven when we die. This summarizes very well the popular understanding of the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement. Incredibly, this leads many Christians to believe, “that God for some unfathomable reason, just thinks it appropriate to transfer credit from Chrsit’s merit account to ours, and to wipe out our sin debt, upon inspecting our mind and finding that we believe a particular theory of the atonement to be true-even if we trust everything but God in all other matters that concern us.â€Â

Perhaps there is a semantics ambiguity that muddles this entire debate - namely what exactly is meant by "faith" when people assert we are saved by faith alone. Whatever such a saving faith might be, I suspect that Willard is right in his implication that it must be more than mental assent to a "theory of atonement".

 

[thessalonian]

By the way JM, your post that I responded to above brought to mind a question I hadn't pondered much before and will in the coming hours. Are works a product of faith? I tend not to think so. But don't hold me to it yet. Of course the other must be considered, can faith or an increase in faith be attributed to works. I think these questions may point out flaws in the faith or works being the cause of salvation and the proper "blame" for salvation being grace. Grace cannot be a product of either for it is a gift of God.

 

[JM]

Thess, this will be my last post in this thread, it's not faith or works but faith and then works.

Peace.

 

[R7-12]

That works will automatically follow faith is an assumption.

For many, positive action may follow belief, however faith cannot exist without works, otherwise it would just be declared belief or intellectual acceptance of a perceived truth.

When Almighty God reveals His truth concerning a specific aspect of His word to an individual, and it is accepted and believed, that persons "hears."

That individual then applies that new truth in their lives because it is believed (and proven) to be true. This is faith. One acts because he or she trusts.

On a basic level, when we read in scripture something God requires of those whom He has called, we should put it into practice because we trust God, even though we may not fully understand the purpose of it. This is faith.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17, NKJV).

Commit your works to the Lord, and your thoughts will be established (Prov. 16:3).

Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and depart from evil (Prov. 3:7).

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.†Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believeâ€â€and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only (James 2:18-24).

The Bible is plain and clear on the matter. The problem is many have been confused by the false doctrines of mainstream Christianity and therefore cannot properly resolve the conflict such verses create in their box of accepted beliefs. As soon as something doesn't fit into it, it is judged to be false, heretical, ungodly, cultish, twisted, etc.

That is why many fundamental truths are rejected as false assertions.

God's chosen are saved by faith. Faith is revealed by how one lives in accordance with the covenant of God, as it is properly understood from the entire word of God, from Genesis to Revelation.

Our obedience to God doesn't save us but it does develop in us the character God wants, the character that will be necessary during the last days, the character that will be necessary to work with those who survive into the millennium, and the character needed at the time of the second resurrection to help all the rest who had not yet been called.

Obedience to God also shows we trust Him explicitly (total faith). That's why He will establish our thinking processes and sort out our minds correctly when we give our works to Him (i.e. do what He commands) from Prov. 16:3.

And that's why Abraham (and all who are written in the Book of Life) will be justified by works as it is written.

But please don't assume what these works are. Prove it by studying through the covenant agreement which we (from Adam onwards) are called to make with God through the blood of His son Jesus Christ.

R7-12

 

[Sothenes]

I have heard that we are saved by faith alone and I have heard some say that we are saved by works alone. I'm of the opinion that it takes both. What do you think and why? By asking why I want scriptural backing for your belief.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If you need works to be saved then you no longer have grace to be saved.

I've dealt with James after many hours of studying it and it doesn't say what other people try to make it say about works.

Don't forget that there are two opinions here (faith verses works) and one is the non-Christian opinion so you are already listening to some of the wrong people to listen to.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess, this will be my last post in this thread, it's not faith or works but faith and then works.

Peace.

I think I've made that point on this thread already. Thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[sehad]

I think noone will make the arguement that we are "saved" by our works, but the bible does mention in a few places of people being justified. We are saved by GOD's grace and mercy and NOTHING ELSE. But then comes the question, is being saved enough? Can you indeed to go heaven with just faith? The works come in when you ACT upon your faith. Jesus tells his disciples to go and teach the gospel. He told Abraham to leave his familiy. He told Moses to bring his people out of bondage. He told Namaan to dip in Jordan 7 times to be healed, so on and so on. We will act upon our faith if we indeed have it.

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

By faith Rahab was saved.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

By her works she was justified. If she just believed and did nothing to help, she would have died with the others. This suggests that we need both faith and works. Faith comes first but then comes the works. Our works are so that others may see Christ through us. Not all works are GOD working through us.

Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Matthew 25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Matthew suggests that our actions(works) define who we are. I can profess that I have faith and I am saved but the proof is in the pudding. Faith alone is not enough, there must be some action. This is how we are justified. If you have GOD on the inside, his love will show through in our actions and how we treat others. Certainly a lot of the works are GOD working through us, but you have to make yourself availabe and allow GOD to use you.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Works will not save you by any means, but the lack thereof can certainly keep you from remaining saved.

 

[Sothenes]

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

James acknowledges that you are saved without works:

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Anyone can pretend to be justified by works and not have faith.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You can't see where salvation comes or salvation goes but like the wind is every one that is born from above. You are trying to prove the spiritual with an earthly ruler and you need a heavenly ruler because the wind is invisible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that salvation is not of yourselves and work is of yourself.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can do works and stand in no relation to Jesus.

 

[sehad]

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

James acknowledges that you are saved without works:

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Anyone can pretend to be justified by works and not have faith.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You can't see where salvation comes or salvation goes but like the wind is every one that is born from above. You are trying to prove the spiritual with an earthly ruler and you need a heavenly ruler because the wind is invisible.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that salvation is not of yourselves and work is of yourself.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can do works and stand in no relation to Jesus.

I totally agree that you can do works and stand in no relation to Jesus. BUT works is something that comes out of your faith and being saved. Thus the reason why you can read above and see that my posts earlier say that you need BOTH.