FAITH, TO BELIEVE

[Messenger]

I'm glad you chose these scriptures but I must point that Paul is speaking about two different groups of people. There is the (we and us) and the (you). Paul makes it clear that in THIS scripture the ones he is speaking about as being "predestined" are the Apostles. That is not to say that there are not other scriptures that may uphold your beliefs. But this one does not.

False.

In this letter to the Ephesians (in the previous post), God is speaking here to the saints...all the saints; those who were separated by the grace of God the Father in eternal election; whose sins were paid for: internally sanctified by the Spirit of God. That's what "saints" means. Makes no difference if God speaks through Paul, Timothy, Titus, etc.

The Bible is a Spiritual Book, for God Himself is the Author (John 4:24).
God teaches His People the proper hermeneutic: Compare scripture with scripture.

Here again, God, through Paul, is speaking unto "the church of God", unto "the saints" (same group of people):

1 Corinthians 2:9-14
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us (the saints) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we (the saints) might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Comparing spiritual with spiritual means, when we are trying to determine the meaning of a word or phrase in the Bible we look to see how God used that word or phrase everywhere else in the Bible. In this way we can let the Bible be its own dictionary. As we come to Truth, we begin to understand how all the verses harmonize, and by God's Grace (His Spiritual Power (Eph. 3:7) which works in the hearts of all His Elect Children) the Gospel becomes simpler all the time.

An excellent study tool is the Strong's Concordance, but while using it you will need a King James Bible.

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

As you study, by God's Grace, after awhile you will begin to understand the Hebrew and Greek words and their meaning; and you will soon discover that many times, even though they hopefully made their best effort, the translators were not always accurate in their translation.

Regarding the "saints" then, begin to search the Scriptures on who the saints are. The whole Bible has much to say about the Purpose of God in His choosing of them, His predestination of them, and His Justification of them... all from the Foundation of the World, before they were even born!

All for His Glory!

 

[Brother Mike]

First, it's important to understand that not everyone can become saved. For in order for a person
to become saved, he must be a part of the election of grace:

Well now, lets hope God picked you then. Some he picks, sets them up like God did Pharaoh then destroys them just like Pharaoh. Who can reply against God? I hope your one of the ones that is not being set up, and fully elected. You just never know what God is going to do.



Mike.

 

[Messenger]

First, it's important to understand that not everyone can become saved. For in order for a person
to become saved, he must be a part of the election of grace:

Well now, lets hope God picked you then. Some he picks, sets them up like God did Pharaoh then destroys them just like Pharaoh. Who can reply against God? I hope your one of the ones that is not being set up, and fully elected. You just never know what God is going to do.

Mike.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good;
and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil:
for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

 

[Deborah13]

In this letter to the Ephesians (in the previous post), God is speaking here to the saints...all the saints; those who were separated by the grace of God the Father in eternal election; whose sins were paid for: internally sanctified by the Spirit of God. That's what "saints" means. Makes no difference if God speaks through Paul, Timothy, Titus, etc.

I never said Paul was not speaking to the "saints" at the church at Ephesus. I said he was speaking about two groups. (we and us = Apostles) (you=the saints).
The "saints" at the church, I quote "we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ " are you and I in this group, No.

I told you that I was not saying that there may be other scriptures which support your belief, just that this one does not. So if you want me to agree with you, quote from THAT scripture to show me I am incorrect about THAT scripture.

An excellent study tool is the Strong's Concordance, but while using it you will need a King James Bible.

Usually I quote only from the KJV as that is the Bible that I have always used. But in this case, the more modern English is more familiar to the ear of many others who do not use the KJV.
The portions of 1 Corinthians that you quoted says nothing about Elect, Chosen, or predestination. I agree the "we" is the "saints".

1 Corinthians 2 NASV
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,

So here we see the what is being spoken of as predestined is the "hidden wisdom" of God. First received by the Apostles and taught to the "saints" of the churches, both Jew and Gentile. But the only way the anyone can understand is because of the Holy Spirit, indwelling the "saints".

The "saints" are all those in the body of Christ who have "by grace, through faith, not works" received the gift of salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, through our blessed Savior, by His works of Cross and resurrection.

I believe we are too, the seed of Abraham by faith in the One Seed, Christ Jesus. And we are part of the elect through Him, He is the predestined, Chosen One, the Seed of the promise.

 

[Messenger]

The "saints" are all those in the body of Christ

Absolutely!

 

[Brother Mike]

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good;
and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil:
for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Well, since your elected, I just hope with some of the thoughts you have had that you stay elected. I mean, Judas was following Jesus, and God had to fulfill those scriptures. Right at the super table Got set Judas Heart against Jesus and it was hell for him. Do the best you can and hope God does not elect you to be an example of those truly elected in his body of Grace.

You just never know what God is going to do, or who He is going to make an example of to benefit his truly chosen.

Scary stuff.

Mike.

 

[WIP]

Let's watch the tone in these messages. We are here together not to tear each other down but to build each other up and grow.

 

[Deborah13]

John 16:7-11 KJV
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

You see this is why man's sin will be judged. Because he does not believe in Jesus. Well, if it's God's doing that the man does not believe, then it's not the man's sin that he doesn't believe. God won't let him believe but then judge him because he doesn't believe?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Referring to Pentecost, right? when properly speaking the church began.

Blessings.

That would be when the Holy Spirit was given to man. When the Comforter was sent.

 

[Messenger]

Well, since your elected, I just hope with some of the thoughts you have had that you stay elected. I mean, Judas was following Jesus, and God had to fulfill those scriptures. Right at the super table Got set Judas Heart against Jesus and it was hell for him. Do the best you can and hope God does not elect you to be an example of those truly elected in his body of Grace. You just never know what God is going to do, or who He is going to make an example of to benefit his truly chosen. Scary stuff. Mike.

Jeremiah 17:10
I, Jehovah, search the heart, I try the reins,
even to give to each man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his doings.

TGBTG!

 

[Deborah13]

Rom. 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Yes, but in this scripture Paul is talking about the physical, nation of Israel.

Faith is not a "condition" to become saved by grace, but faith is given as a gift to all the election of grace.

scripture please.

Faith accompanies the gift of God, which is Jesus Christ (Rev. 19:11) given to all the elect;
it is by His Faith, not their own faith. Faith belongs exclusively to God's Elect:

Scripture please?

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

I'll concede to this one, as it is not very clear as to what and who is the "chosen", whether he is referring to the faith of the chosen Apostles or a general faith share by all believers. At any rate, he in v4, refers to this faith as being in common with Titus.

The faith of a man who is not saved, the natural man, can never please God. (Rom. 8:8)

I agree and I believe posted that in another post. Natural man can do good things, feed the poor, etc. but what he does is for himself, not to glorify God and that is what it is all about.

So, the works of faith (1Thes. 1:3) and believing are done by someone who is already saved,
the new spiritual man!

Again I agree with your statement. However 1 Thess. speaks of one "work of faith". I believe this is specific "work of faith."

1 Thessalonians KJV
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

I looked at this in the Greek, if someone can see that I have misunderstood the Greek please correct me.
Work of faith is a noun phrase, not a verb, so it is not talking about something that we do. It is some thing we have. V4, "election" is also a noun not a verb, so it is speaking of a choice that was made.
The whole church is being complemented for their witness to others, so much so that the Apostles are assured of this choice.

Good scriptures. We agree on much. I do not think that any of my salvation is of myself. It doesn't really matter when or how God gave us faith, He still provided it and it is through this faith and by His grace, we are saved. Plus the Father is the one who must draw, Jesus said, no one could come to Him unless the Father drew him. It is His righteousness that justifies us.

Blessings to you

 

[Messenger]

Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Yes, but in this scripture Paul is talking about the physical, nation of Israel. Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post Faith is not a "condition" to become saved by grace, but faith is given as a gift to all the election of grace. scripture please. Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post Faith accompanies the gift of God, which is Jesus Christ (Rev. 19:11) given to all the elect; it is by His Faith, not their own faith. Faith belongs exclusively to God's Elect: Scripture please?

God used the nation of Israel in the Bible as a picture of the Kingdom of God;
the true Israel of God is spiritual. Do you know who the true Israel of God is?

Salvation has nothing to do with any works/conditions anyone can meet in the flesh to become saved, because all our works are as filthy rags in God's sight; and nothing the natural man does can please God; e.g. repenting and believing.

God already has redeemed all He planned to save (Gal. 3:13) before they were even born (2 Tim. 1:9) solely by the riches of His Grace! (Eph. 1:7). Remember, Faith and Repentance are given by God (Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 2:25; John 3:27), and accompany Salvation... they are the fruit/evidence of true salvation!

 

[josefnospam]

John 15:16 "Ye have not choosen me, but I have choosen you and ordained you.........."
Acts 13:48....."as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"
Ephesians 1:4..............According as he hath choosen us in him BEFORE the foundations of the world.........."
Pslm 47:4 "He shall choose out inheritance for us........"
Plsm 65: "blessed is the man whom thou chooses.........."
Matt 20:16 "for many are called BUT few choosen

 

[josefnospam]

2 Thes. 2:13 .......God has choosen you FROM THE BEGINING to Salvation......"
John 13:18 ' " I speak not of of you ALL, I KNOW whom I have choosen.."
John 16:19 ......"but I have choosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
John11:27 and 28 But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP hear my voice , and I know them andc they follow me."
God choose his people before the world was created.
He came to this world to pay for our sins and to justify all those he choose before he made the world
We therefore as his bloodbought Children, will Give ALL honor and glory to him and NEVER to any man.
If your not glorying in him, who are you Glorying in? Yourself or some other?

Just a few scriptures that speak of who God choose and when and why..........Not a compleate list

 

[gr8grace]

2 Thes. 2:13 .......God has choosen you FROM THE BEGINING to Salvation......"
John 13:18 ' " I speak not of of you ALL, I KNOW whom I have choosen.."
John 16:19 ......"but I have choosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
John11:27 and 28 But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP hear my voice , and I know them andc they follow me."
God choose his people before the world was created.
He came to this world to pay for our sins and to justify all those he choose before he made the world
We therefore as his bloodbought Children, will Give ALL honor and glory to him and NEVER to any man.
If your not glorying in him, who are you Glorying in? Yourself or some other?

Just a few scriptures that speak of who God choose and when and why..........Not a compleate list

2 Thess 2:13~~airew 0138 aor mid ind 3s ---verb to choose ....middle voice indicates 2 wills, ours and Gods. Choosing based on what the creature has done with God's invitation.

John 13:18~~eklegw 1586 aor mid ind 1s ---verb to choose.....middle voice indicates 2 wills, ours and Gods. Choosing based on what the creature has done with God's invitation.

John 15:19~~eklegw 1586 aor mid ind 1s ---verb to choose.....middle voice indicates 2 wills, ours and Gods. Choosing based on what the creature has done with God's invitation

John 10:26~~ pisteuw 4100 pres act ind 2p ---verb I believe.....The active voice says the creature has refused to believe. 26~~"But you keep on refusing to believe
because you are not My sheep. All mankind is in the sheepfold, the shepherd would go out and Chant to His sheep, the positive Sheep(believers) would come to His chant. The negative sheep(unbelievers) did not listen to His chant.

The Greek language is very,very precise. It is intellectual, biblical and academically dishonest to say that the Middle voice in the Greek comes from a changed will first. Or the Active voice is from a changed will first and that is why it can be active or middle voice.

The Greek Language would have a "changed will active voice" or a " Changed will middle voice". The middle voice and the active voice in the Greek is not coming from God Changing our freewill so we can then be active or participate in the "choosing".

It is our freewill that is active in believing and it is our freewill decision in the Middle voice for God Choosing us.

The Greek Language does not allow for creatures to come in and say," well God changes our will first so we can be active in believing"

The Greek language would have a " Changed will active voice" then.