Bible Study Faith & Works....A Balanced Team

[Hawkins]

Whenever they lost a single arguement, they have to resort themselves to a "you rebuke me, you judge me" circular arguement, instead of a re-think of the original arguement itself. No matter what tactics they are going to apply, a truth will finally stand a truth.

end of quote;


Which case are you talking about? I can refute what you are saying is unbiased. Would you show it to me instead of being so vague? Or you don't have courage to confront straight?

You have to stop this kind of church tactics to attack your opposers. It is so dishonest.


sincerely,

It's more of a note to solo, a "they" is used so it's not directed to you personally. As for the point of honesty, I am as honest as to stand any trial even in God's court to write that. So for that sake, dont call me dishonest, you may have your own point of view and form your own opinions thou.

:wink:

 

[Hawkins]

It's more of a note to solo, a "they" is used so it's not directed to you personally. As for the point of honesty, I am as honest as to stand any trial even in God's court to write that. So for that sake, dont call me dishonest, you may have your own point of view and form your own opinions thou.

end of quote;


Yes, you made a note to solo about my posts in public. It seems you have something against me because you are are talking about my post. Why don't you talk to me instead of to solo? I don't think it is done in a sincere manner.

I made a note to solo not about your post in specific, at the same time, I made a separate post for you specifically. I dont need to made 2 posts to reply your single post, think about that.

This is not the first time I made a note publicly to solo, so figure it out.

 

[Jay T]

I do not fight against denominations. I stand for the truth and alert others to steer clear of the false teachings that have crept in.

Glad to hear that.
The Lord has provided a test as to who has the truth, as presented in the Bible.... Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them".

The 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) is God's standard of what Righteousness is (Psalms 119:172).

Perhaps we can teach the Christian world that false teaching that have crept in such as: Sunday worship services....The Rapture theory.....That man has an Immortal soul-spirit, ect.

These false doctrines are remnants left over from the Catholic church, which needs to be purged, to retain the pure teachings of the Bible.

Perhaps you'd like to help me with this task ?

 

[Solo]

I do not fight against denominations. I stand for the truth and alert others to steer clear of the false teachings that have crept in.

Glad to hear that.
The Lord has provided a test as to who has the truth, as presented in the Bible.... Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them".

The 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) is God's standard of what Righteousness is (Psalms 119:172).

Perhaps we can teach the Christian world that false teaching that have crept in such as: Sunday worship services....The Rapture theory.....That man has an Immortal soul-spirit, ect.

These false doctrines are remnants left over from the Catholic church, which needs to be purged, to retain the pure teachings of the Bible.

Perhaps you'd like to help me with this task ?

I will help you with the task of revealing false teachings and false prophets. See my postings on the false teachings of the SDA church in Christianity and Other Religions for starters.

As far as the quote in Isaiah 8:20 (Isaiah is one of my favorite books of the Bible), lets quote it in context and then look at some other verses of scripture pertaining to the law.

This verse of scripture is speaking to those in Israel of the house of Jacob and is a warning for a people to seek their God and not seek after those with familiar spirits, or wizards who peep and mutter.

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. 21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. Isaiah 8:16-21

Paul explains the two covenents to the Galatians by showing the law as the mistress Hagar and the promise of God as being Abraham's wife Sarah. Read this portion of scripture and explain what the Holy Spirit is teaching through Paul here.

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, don't you hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and the other by a free woman. 23 But the one by the slave was born according to the flesh, while the one by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24 These things are illustrations, for the women represent the two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery--this is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written: Rejoice, O barren woman who does not give birth. Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor, for the children of the desolate are many, more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband. 28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so also now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? Throw out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never inherit with the son of the free woman. 31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. Galatians 4:21-31

Those believers that are born into God's kingdom by the birth of the Spirit are not under the Old covenant, but are under the new covenant. Notice what the Holy Spirit is teaching the Galatians through Paul in the following scripture. Gentiles are justified by faith and are not justified by the law. All who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, and no one is justified by the law, but by faith. The righteous live by faith. The law is not based on faith. Jesus Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.

8 Now the Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed in you. 9 So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith. 10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law. 11 Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. Galatians 3:8-13

Some of the early believers of the church rose up to make it imperitive that the Gentiles become circumsized and follow the Law of Moses before they could be saved. Paul and Barnabus disputed with them, and took it before the elders of the church at Jerusalem for an answer. After hearing the dispute, Peter stood and said, "Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they".

Peter refered to the Gentiles being under the law as having a yoke placed around their neck, which the Israelites were unable to bear. He said that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, not by keeping the law.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:5-11

 

[guibox]

were told to pick up Christ's cross and follow Him. We were told that for His names sake we would suffer. We were told to separate ourselves from the world. We were told to offer ALL that we have for others.

I contend that anyone that has 'true' faith understands what is expected of them. That our job is not to spend our time trying to please ourselves. Not to worry only about that which brings our own happiness. But to seek out those in need and offer what we can to make their lives easier to bare. We are to do away with our idols and love God above all else. And there is absolutely NO WAY that one can say that they love someone that they are unwilling to do for. God gave us a list of what we are to do 'if we love Him'. Is there any way to actually love Him without following His will? And wouldn't following His will be 'works' of sorts? So, as stated above, wouldn't it take a measure of both faith and works in order to receive that which has been promised IF we follow the will of God? And what right would one that refuses this have to ask for ANYTHING other than what they are due?
.

Very well put, Imagican.

The Evangelical camp risks the warning Christ gave 'depart from me, ye who work lawlessness, never knew you.'

"Believe and that's it!" They scream. Yes...for initial justification. However, we are to serve and love God with 'all our heart mind and soul'. Sitting on our haunches doing nothing, or worse living both a life to the world and to God, because we are saved flies in the face of living a life of Christian servitude to God (the first four of the commandments) and to others (the last six commandments).

Instead, the liberal evangelical camp screams 'Salvation by works!!!' whenever anyone brings up the law or serving in any context. Thus they miss the balance in their zeal to emphasise 'salvation by faith ALONE!!!!!!!' They don't realize you don't keep the law to BE saved but because you ARE saved and that is what God requires of us.

A living faith will result in good works and keeping the law. If one chooses to live their own life taking God's gift of graace for granted, they don't really have a living faith in God....hence are they really saved?

If so, then there is NOTHING that can stop me from losing my salvation. I can live a life of hedonism and do my own thing.

This is not so, hence, works do play a part, at the least in reflecting my condition.

 

[Solo]

were told to pick up Christ's cross and follow Him. We were told that for His names sake we would suffer. We were told to separate ourselves from the world. We were told to offer ALL that we have for others.

I contend that anyone that has 'true' faith understands what is expected of them. That our job is not to spend our time trying to please ourselves. Not to worry only about that which brings our own happiness. But to seek out those in need and offer what we can to make their lives easier to bare. We are to do away with our idols and love God above all else. And there is absolutely NO WAY that one can say that they love someone that they are unwilling to do for. God gave us a list of what we are to do 'if we love Him'. Is there any way to actually love Him without following His will? And wouldn't following His will be 'works' of sorts? So, as stated above, wouldn't it take a measure of both faith and works in order to receive that which has been promised IF we follow the will of God? And what right would one that refuses this have to ask for ANYTHING other than what they are due?
.

Very well put, Imagican.

The Evangelical camp risks the warning Christ gave 'depart from me, ye who work lawlessness, never knew you.'

Believe and that's it! Yes...for intiial justification. However, we are to serve and love God with 'all our heart mind and soul'. Sitting on our haunches doing nothing because we are saved flies in the face of living a life of Christian servitude to God (the first four of the commandments) and to others (the last six commandments).

Instead, the liberal evangelical camp screams 'Salvation by works!!!' whenever anyone brings up the law or serving in any context. Thus they miss the balance in their zeal to emphasise 'salvation by faith ALONE!!!!!!!' They don't realize you keep the law to be saved but because you are saved and that is what God requires of us.

Your position disallows believers to live according to the guidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who was given believers by faith, not of the law as has been shown us in the scripture. We keep the commandments of Christ Jesus, not by the law, but by the indwelling abidence of the Holy Spirit. We don't keep a phony one day a week holy to the Lord, we keep every day holy to the Lord. As Peter spoke in Acts 15, why would anyone want to place a yoke upon a believer when the fathers of the Israelites were unable to keep the law.

There is not a person on this planet that keeps the law in its entirety, because when they break the law at one point, they are guilty of breaking the entire law. The law does not gain salvation nor does it keep salvation, it only brings one under bondage to the curse of the law. Those that have their mind made up that the law is what gains them access into the kingdom of God, and that the law is what keeps them on their way into the kingdom of God, do not believe or trust the work of Jesus Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

If I can quote Augustine from his Confessions without being called a Catholic, I believe it relates. Let me know... I figure that Soma might appreciate this

Confessions Book 13[/url]]CHAPTER XXXV
50. O Lord God, grant us thy peace--for thou hast given us all things. Grant us the peace of quietness, the peace of the Sabbath, the peace without an evening. All this most beautiful array of things, all so very good, will pass away when all their courses are finished--for in them there is both morning and evening.

51. But the seventh day is without an evening, and it has no setting, for thou hast sanctified it with an everlasting duration. After all thy works of creation, which were very good, thou didst rest on the seventh day, although thou hadst created them all in unbroken rest--and this so that the voice of thy Book might speak to us with the prior assurance that after our works--and they also are very good because thou hast given them to us--we may find our rest in thee in the Sabbath of life eternal.[653]

CHAPTER XXXVII
52. For then also thou shalt so rest in us as now thou workest in us; and, thus, that will be thy rest through us, as these are thy works through us. But thou, O Lord, workest evermore and art always at rest. Thou seest not in time, thou movest not in time, thou restest not in time. And yet thou makest all those things which are seen in time--indeed, the very times themselves--and everything that proceeds in and from time.

(See Time / Eternity Book 11, Highlights Chapter 14-31)

CHAPTER XXXVIII
53. We can see all those things which thou hast made because they are--but they are because thou seest them.[654] And we see with our eyes that they are, and we see with our minds that they are good. But thou sawest them as made when thou sawest that they would be made.

And now, in this present time, we have been moved to do well, now that our heart has been quickened by thy Spirit; but in the former time, having forsaken thee, we were moved to do evil.[655] But thou, O the one good God, hast never ceased to do good! And we have accomplished certain good works by thy good gifts, and even though they are not eternal, still we hope, after these things here, to find our rest in thy great sanctification. But thou art the Good, and needest no rest, and art always at rest, because thou thyself art thy own rest.

What man will teach men to understand this? And what angel will teach the angels? Or what angels will teach men? We must ask it of thee; we must seek it in thee; we must knock for it at thy door. Only thus shall we receive; only thus shall we find; only thus shall thy door be opened.[656]

 

[protos]

The verse "faith without works is dead" refers with respect to men, not God. So, a person that does a lot of bad works probably won't be viewed by others as a true believer even if he is.

"No Jesus, no change. Know Jesus, know change."

 

[Jay T]

The verse "faith without works is dead" refers with respect to men, not God. So, a person that does a lot of bad works probably won't be viewed by others as a true believer even if he is.

As scripture says: "Ye shall know them by their fruits".
The Biblical test for true Christianty is the 10 commandments of God (Isaiah 8:20).
And, the people of God are identified in the Bible as......
Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus". Without Jesus....it is impossible to keep the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) !

 

[Ryan Collins]

I haven't read the course of this thread so please forgive me if this is way off of the topic already at hand.

I believe with faith, comes action. Without faith their is no action, but with faith comes action. And in every aspect of our Christian walk whether it be Salvation, Living abundantly, health, healing, finances, giving, prayer, whatever it is, if we declare ir ot pray for it in faith, we will need a corresponding action to go with the prayer or declaration. For instance, with salvation, by having faith Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins you are saved (through repentance and forgiveness), but that isn't it. There needs to be continuous corresponding action, you can't just be saved and then go on with life like nothing happened. With every aspect of faith comes action and the action needs to be corresponding regarding the course of faith.

If that is rambling, forgive me, I'm tired. Haha.

 

[gingercat]

I haven't read the course of this thread so please forgive me if this is way off of the topic already at hand.

I believe with faith, comes action. Without faith their is no action, but with faith comes action. And in every aspect of our Christian walk whether it be Salvation, Living abundantly, health, healing, finances, giving, prayer, whatever it is, if we declare ir ot pray for it in faith, we will need a corresponding action to go with the prayer or declaration. For instance, with salvation, by having faith Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins you are saved (through repentance and forgiveness), but that isn't it. There needs to be continuous corresponding action, you can't just be saved and then go on with life like nothing happened. With every aspect of faith comes action and the action needs to be corresponding regarding the course of faith.

If that is rambling, forgive me, I'm tired. Haha.

Yes, It is so simple but some how so many people fight against it. :-? :-? :-?

 

[Ryan Collins]

And I won't be surprised when I hear them tell me, "I'm not living in abundance." Or if they are living in abundance, it's abundance in one area and not another, which isn't incorrect abundance but INCOMPLETE abundance.

 

[Jay T]

There needs to be continuous corresponding action, you can't just be saved and then go on with life like nothing happened. With every aspect of faith comes action and the action needs to be corresponding regarding the course of faith.

That's right !
There is no such thing as Jesus Chjrist saving a person 'from' sin....so that they will keep right on sinning.

A person who is saved 'from' sin....does not let sin control themselves any longer.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Ryan Collins":0b6e8] There needs to be continuous corresponding action, you can't just be saved and then go on with life like nothing happened. With every aspect of faith comes action and the action needs to be corresponding regarding the course of faith.

That's right !
There is no such thing as Jesus Chjrist saving a person 'from' sin....so that they will keep right on sinning.

A person who is saved 'from' sin....does not let sin control themselves any longer.

[/quote:0b6e8]

Ditto with the "That's rights." It's really pretty simple and yet we seem to have such difficulty with the 'faith without works is dead' concept.

 

[Jay T]

[quote="Ryan Collins":38b3f] There needs to be continuous corresponding action, you can't just be saved and then go on with life like nothing happened. With every aspect of faith comes action and the action needs to be corresponding regarding the course of faith.

That's right !
There is no such thing as Jesus Chjrist saving a person 'from' sin....so that they will keep right on sinning.

A person who is saved 'from' sin....does not let sin control themselves any longer.

Ditto with the "That's rights." It's really pretty simple and yet we seem to have such difficulty with the 'faith without works is dead' concept.

[/quote:38b3f]It is the 'works' that separates the belief satan & his angles have, from those of the true Christian.

Satan & company cannot do...the works of Righteousness, which is the keeping of the commandments of God.

BUT...the true Christian can....thru the power of grace....Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: