False Doctrine Abounds...

[2NCBrother]

You are absolutely correct in your assessment of UR. Unfortunately, there are numerous religions and churches that espouse false doctrines and few people, only a remnant actually, that take the time to rebuke and reprove these doctrines. As you pointed out:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man
of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

False doctrine has its roots in the earliest of churches in fact since the fall of the second faithful slave of Matthew 25 in 444 Tishri. This marked the end of water baptism before the 1440 years (i.e. 4 Prophetic times of Revelation 7 before 1884Tishri.) began. This was a result of the intense persecution of the True Christians by the Roman Catholics who were in power presumably since 67 Tishri when Paul was appointed over all of Jesus’ belongings when His second presence ended (i.e. after the resurrection).

Anyone who claims to be a Christian should heed Jesus’ advice and seek God with his whole heart, his whole soul and his whole mind and it should be done with a pure heart.

Jesus said in his sermon on the mount:

8 Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God (Matthew 5).

The pure in heart do not see God physically, because no man can see God and yet live. They see him with their minds, for he is one short step of reason away. But what does it mean to have a pure heart? Well everyone has impure thoughts, immoral thoughts, and hateful thoughts. And every man utters impure words, immoral words and hateful words. James tells us:

2 If anyone does not stumble in word, this one is a perfect man (James 3).

And there are no perfect men amongst the sons of Adam. So plainly a pure heart does not mean that we only think sinless thoughts. No, a pure heart is one that can divorce the truth from any preconceived personal consequences to our status that the truth may have. It is simply a true academic heart, an honest heart. If you are willing to admit you may be wrong about something even if it means losing your job or your status or even your own humility, you have a pure heart.

God has intentionally written the bible so that His enemies will find it boring and unproductive for learning. All of the praise in the bible is not because God has a big ego and needs a whole lot of it!! It is there merely to sort the sheep from the goats. He has given to everybody a book about his past dealings with his friends, who lived thousands of years ago, who had many camels and lived in tents and had children and basically did the sort of things that everybody else did back then.

This is of no great consequence to the enemies of God. It just looks like an out of date soap opera, written by someone who they do not like. Of what interest to a 20th or 21st century currency speculator is it that Esau lost his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of soup, or that he crossed the Jabbok with 200 female sheep and 20 rams? This sort of information is hardly the sort of thing that would come up on his Reuters screen.

But hidden in amongst all of the banal, mundane and everyday tribulations of these friends of God, is the whole of his military plan for saving mankind from sin and death and removing Satan as the God of this world. The plan for men to regain the birthright that Adam lost, namely everlasting human and angelic life as we will demonstrate for you.

22 He is revealing the deep things and the concealed things, knowing what is in the darkness; and with him the light does dwell (Daniel 2).

We are looking at the whole book as being effectively written by one person, because Paul tells us that it was:

16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness (2 Timothy 3).

And Peter tells us:

21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit (2 Peter 1).

So now that we know God was the writer of the bible where does this all lead us? What about these parables and illustrations? Solomon said:

2 The Glory of God is the keeping of a matter secret, and the glory of kings is the searching through a matter (Proverbs 25).

4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it,
5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God (Proverbs 2).

So this knowledge is hidden. And it is hidden in the bible, for Paul says of Jesus:

3 Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge (Colossians 2).

Anyone who blindly follows any church doctrine without searching these matters out is not a Christian, but a Churchian!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[gingercat]

Bill,

We also have many false prophets even in the forums. They are wearing sheeps clothings.

 

[Duder]

You are absolutely correct in your assessment of UR.

Greetings, 2NCBrother -

Unfortunately, one is not allowed in this forum to entertain the possibility that you are incorrect. It would be out-of-bounds to give voice to the hope that God's grace will prove so powerfully limitless and irresistable that it could bring every man to fellowship with him. That means that your point of view cannot be challenged here, and so I will not challenge it. However, please know that a serious challenge can be made to your point of view in fora that enjoy a freer exchange of ideas.

Unfortunately, there are numerous religions and churches that espouse false doctrines and few people, only a remnant actually, that take the time to rebuke and reprove these doctrines

It is too bad you cannot properly refute UR in this forum. For a good refutation depends upon a fair hearing of the other point of view.

As you pointed out:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man
of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Indeed! However, the difficulty comes about when faithful men and women reach different conclusions about what the scriptures mean. In fact, I would go so far as to say that some of the opinions you and I have about what the scriptures mean are incorrect. The odds that you or I have everything exactly right are very slight. That is because we both have a very limited human intelligence. God understands that, and he makes allowance for that fact.

What you and I are doing in fora like this one is testing our opinions and ideas, by pitting them one against the other. In that way, it is possible that we could come to surrendur our poor ideas and adopt better ones instead. Is it possible that some of your notions could stand improvement, or are you completely satisfied with your current understanding? I am sure you are among those who are open to better insights, as everyone should be who comes to places like this to talk about things.

My point is, if you rail against false doctrine, you must be prepared to admit the posibility that some of the false doctrine might be your own. Otherwise, you are not an equal partner in discussion about it.

False doctrine has its roots in the earliest of churches in fact since the fall of the second faithful slave of Matthew 25 in 444 Tishri. This marked the end of water baptism before the 1440 years (i.e. 4 Prophetic times of Revelation 7 before 1884Tishri.) began. This was a result of the intense persecution of the True Christians by the Roman Catholics who were in power presumably since 67 Tishri when Paul was appointed over all of Jesus’ belongings when His second presence ended (i.e. after the resurrection).

Anyone who claims to be a Christian should heed Jesus’ advice and seek God with his whole heart, his whole soul and his whole mind and it should be done with a pure heart.

Jesus said in his sermon on the mount:

8 Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God (Matthew 5).

The pure in heart do not see God physically, because no man can see God and yet live. They see him with their minds, for he is one short step of reason away. But what does it mean to have a pure heart? Well everyone has impure thoughts, immoral thoughts, and hateful thoughts. And every man utters impure words, immoral words and hateful words. James tells us:

2 If anyone does not stumble in word, this one is a perfect man (James 3).

And there are no perfect men amongst the sons of Adam. So plainly a pure heart does not mean that we only think sinless thoughts. No, a pure heart is one that can divorce the truth from any preconceived personal consequences to our status that the truth may have. It is simply a true academic heart, an honest heart. If you are willing to admit you may be wrong about something even if it means losing your job or your status or even your own humility, you have a pure heart.

That's what I'm talking about, dude! Right on, well said, and amen.

And I maintain that everyone involved here must be as willing as you to entertain the idea that they are wrong about things - even the doctrines that are dearest to them.

.

 

[Disciple88]

Now, before this goes on, so i can be informed and maybe help, what is UR and why is it false?

I honestly don't know what it is.

 

[Drew]

Now, before this goes on, so i can be informed and maybe help, what is UR and why is it false?

I honestly don't know what it is.

I beleive that UR stands for Universal Reconciliation - the idea that all people will eventually achieve salvation. There have been such rancorous disputes over this in the past that the administrators / moderators of this board have banned the topic (at least for now).

 

[Disciple88]

Now, before this goes on, so i can be informed and maybe help, what is UR and why is it false?

I honestly don't know what it is.

I beleive that UR stands for Universal Reconciliation - the idea that all people will eventually achieve salvation. There have been such rancorous disputes over this in the past that the administrators / moderators of this board have banned the topic (at least for now).

Wow, well... there was a question asked Will Non-believers get to heaven? it was in a forum. I answered that, in the best way I could with the best tool I had, which is the biblical way with the bible. If someone wants to take this up their should be a seperate area for things like this. I will put my point of view on here, but i will make it short into two or three sentences.

UR is unbiblical. You can not prove it using the bible in a grammatical, contextial, historical way. The bible in fact goes against this theory. So for those who believe in UR, they go against the wisdom of God which was written down by solomon where he wrote "Do not lean on your own understanding."

 

[2NCBrother]

You are certainly right about doctrine. We have made thousands of mistakes on our journey to open the scriptures, that is why our understandings are so good. We also ask that anyone who has a better understanding of a particular scripture to please bring it forth.

If you have a particular thing that you do not agree with or do not understand about any of my posts, I ask that you do in a non confrontational way. We should examine all scriptures to the fullest and prove and reprove everything we find. The treasures abound, we only need to keep on knocking!!!

I also agree that if it is not in the Holy Bible whether the Old or New Testaments, it is to be taken with a grain of salt and then harmonized with the scriptures for authenticy. Bear in mind that some of the scriptures have been added to and taken away from by both those trying to translate it (by mistake) and those who purposely did it to fit their doctrine. Interlinear copies are a must for both Testaments in that they capture the true meanings.

All of this will be made known before the time of the end...and we are most certainly in that time now! Let's keep looking!!!!


Blessings,
Bill

 

[Soma-Sight]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man
of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Too bad the book of John was not written yet....

And the books of Luke and Matthew may have predated this verse as well.

 

[Georges]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man
of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Too bad the book of John was not written yet....

And the books of Luke and Matthew may have predated this verse as well.

What is all Scripture?.....OT, NT....both?

Wasn't the OT the only available at that time?

 

[Soma-Sight]

What is all Scripture?.....OT, NT....both?

Wasn't the OT the only available at that time?

Check out my new post in apologetics for the exact dating from wikipedia of various scriptures.

Paul had Mark and thats it as far as the four Gospels go.

 

[2NCBrother]

You are not getting the point. All of the scriptures are relevant regardless of date.

18 For truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place (Matthew 5).

Further, “Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled (Luke 16:17). (By the way, the whole Bible is the Law)

There are no wasted words in the bible. So repetitions have power, double descriptions have power. Seemingly trivial details have power. Every tense of every verb, every case of every word has power:

12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart (Hebrews 4).

And as you pointed out George

Ecc 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; and there is nothing new under the sun.

What this is saying is that everything that is happening right now with Christianity has happened before. We are currently in the second presence of the Christ. We only have a short time left to get this right.

You cannot possibly harmonize scriptures without looking at both Old and New Testaments!! Do you not believe that a God who created all that exists in the heavens and on earth could not ensure that the Bible was written to provide us these answers? The bible itself is written in a code. In fact it tells us this and we should do our best to try and understand it. God knows the ending before it begins, I would think He could get it right for us don’t you?

33 So with many illustrations of that sort he would speak the word to them, as far as they were able to listen.
34 Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, but privately to his disciples he would explain all things (Mark 4).

But Jesus is called the word by John in the famous scripture:
1 In beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was [a] god (John 1).

And John is told by the angel in Revelation that he has the name: The word of God.

3 And he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God (Revelation 19).

But the word of God is the bible:

6 And so you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition (Matthew 15).

17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God's word (Ephesians 6).

But the word of God is Jesus:

1 On an occasion when the crowd was pressing close upon him and listening to the word of God, he was standing beside the lake of Gennesaret (Luke 5).

Jesus wasn’t quoting scriptures at them, he was speaking in illustrations as he always did, so here the word of God meant Jesus. So Jesus is the word of God which is the bible. So Jesus ‘is’ the bible. This identification is meant in the sense that God was the author, Jesus was the editor/publisher, and the writers were the journalists. As regards God’s son:

3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence (John 1).

This is precisely what I mean by the bible being written in a code:

2 The Glory of God is the keeping of a matter secret, and the glory of kings is the searching through a matter (Proverbs 25).
4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it,
5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God (Proverbs 2).

So this knowledge is hidden. And it is hidden in the bible, for Paul says of Jesus:

3 Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge (Colossians 2).

Well, these treasures are not stuffed up his shirt or down his trousers, although in a sense, they are in his body, which is his church. Basically they are hidden in the information we have on him. This information is the bible. For as we have seen above, Jesus is the word of God, which is also 'the bible'. Paul describes how it is hidden and revealed:

7 But we speak God's wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory (1 Corinthians 2).

10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2).
So again we see that wisdom is hidden in this book, concealed or coded. For a code is hidden written information. This is why Jesus says:
2 There is nothing carefully concealed that will not be revealed, and secret that will not become known (Luke 12).

7 Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you (Matthew 7).

And really you do not have to look that far. But you do have to look, yourself! For God said to Adam:

19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread (Genesis 3)

We have been commanded (by Jesus) to love God (our Heavenly Father) with all our heart, mind and soul. Maybe it’s time to start.

Blessings,
Bill