false "prosperity gospel"

[Scotth1960]

Friends,
"Contrary to the false "prosperity gospel" preaching by many of the materialistic modern, so-called charismatic, Protestant denominations, Christ made no promise of material well-being or physical healing as a "reward" for faith. Quite the contrary:
But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full, for you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers the false prophets (Lk. 6:24-26).
"Christ promises woe to people who enjoy the very selfsame "blessings" that many Protestant denominations teach is the birthright of a Christian, as one of the "Elect" practitioners of the American Dream. Yet St. Mark the Ascetic writes, "[H]e who does something good and expects a reward is serving not God but his own will". [pages 260-261: DANCING ALONE: The Quest for Orthodox Faith in the Age of False Religion. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Press. Regina Orthodox Press Online Store
God save us all. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Hitch]

Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.


You've taken a good idea too far.

 

[Scotth1960]

Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.


You've taken a good idea too far.

Friend, I wouldn't expect you to understand what Frank Schaeffer is trying to say, if you follow charismatic tradition of people like Frederick Price and Kenneth Copeland and the late Oral Roberts, etc. I do not say you are doing that, but what is your point. Are you disagreeing with Frank Schaeffer for the sake of disagreeing with him? And I do not blame anyone if they disagree with me. I have often been wrong on doctrine and in morals, so I need forgiveness from Christ. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Hitch]

Friend, I wouldn't expect you to understand what Frank Schaeffer is trying to say, if you follow charismatic tradition of people like Frederick Price and Kenneth Copeland and the late Oral Roberts, etc. I do not say you are doing that, but what is your point. Are you disagreeing with Frank Schaeffer for the sake of disagreeing with him? And I do not blame anyone if they disagree with me. I have often been wrong on doctrine and in morals, so I need forgiveness from Christ. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

You quote below doesnt remind me of Copeland or anyone else.

Yet St. Mark the Ascetic writes, "[H]e who does something good and expects a reward is serving not God but his own will



Re: false "prosperity gospel"
Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Jesus likes folks to do things with a reward in mind.

 

[jasoncran]

Friend, I wouldn't expect you to understand what Frank Schaeffer is trying to say, if you follow charismatic tradition of people like Frederick Price and Kenneth Copeland and the late Oral Roberts, etc. I do not say you are doing that, but what is your point. Are you disagreeing with Frank Schaeffer for the sake of disagreeing with him? And I do not blame anyone if they disagree with me. I have often been wrong on doctrine and in morals, so I need forgiveness from Christ. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

so you believe that God doesnt reward those that seek him that we must be poor and defeated and woe is me as the devil is bigger then me.

hah. my entire testimony is the opposite of that.

God took me from liking both men and women
God took me from hating myself
God gave the ability to make a decent wage
god is healing my emotions as we speak
God healed me from porn and still is

that is bad to you??

that is what copeland teaches alot.

where in the bible does it mandate we must be poor and always poor. sure we can abuse money and worship it. both great and small do this.

i dont agree with copeland alot but i have bothered to listen to him.

have you or do you just take someones word who says that about him without checking for yourself?

 

[Alabaster]

Joshua 1:7-8 NLT
Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the instructions Moses gave you. Do not deviate from them, turning either to the right or to the left. Then you will be successful in everything you do. Study this Book of Instruction continually. Meditate on it day and night so you will be sure to obey everything written in it. Only then will you prosper and succeed in all you do.

 

[Scotth1960]

so you believe that God doesnt reward those that seek him that we must be poor and defeated and woe is me as the devil is bigger then me.

hah. my entire testimony is the opposite of that.

God took me from liking both men and women
God took me from hating myself
God gave the ability to make a decent wage
god is healing my emotions as we speak
God healed me from porn and still is

that is bad to you??

that is what copeland teaches alot.

where in the bible does it mandate we must be poor and always poor. sure we can abuse money and worship it. both great and small do this.

i dont agree with copeland alot but i have bothered to listen to him.

have you or do you just take someones word who says that about him without checking for yourself?

Friend, I have watched K. Copeland on TV a few times. I have a study Bible from KCM (Kenneth Copeland Ministries). What I know about Copeland comes from Hank Hannegraaf, Christianity in Crisis and The Agony of Deceit. Read those books before assuming that everything Copeland teaches is okay. I think those books show some of the things he teaches are gnostic and magic thinking and materialistic philosophy and psychology and not Scripture. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Alabaster]

I think those books show some of the things he teaches are gnostic and magic thinking and materialistic philosophy and psychology and not Scripture. In Erie Scott H.

Keep to the word of God. You will realize that they preach from it alone.

 

[jasoncran]

Friend, I have watched K. Copeland on TV a few times. I have a study Bible from KCM (Kenneth Copeland Ministries). What I know about Copeland comes from Hank Hannegraaf, Christianity in Crisis and The Agony of Deceit. Read those books before assuming that everything Copeland teaches is okay. I think those books show some of the things he teaches are gnostic and magic thinking and materialistic philosophy and psychology and not Scripture. In Erie Scott H.

dude , you dont know me. i am skepticaly of him in alot of ways but i also know what i have seen and were healed of by the lord

you would tell me just dont think about men and dont act on that sin as you cant change that nature.
balony, i know my God he took it

how would tell me to stop wanting porn?

theres no verse that says how God takes that from you at all only that he can

hmm how do you know the power of God if you dont expericence it?

what has God done for you?

do you talk to him?

i may not be the most powerful in the faith in my walk as i ought but i have seen things that only God could tell me.

he told my wife was high on pot and who she smoked with. i saw it all and had to confront her when i got back from afghanistan
he told me my then neighbors were drug addicts, yup true
he told me that another friend was pot user, yup also true

tell me God dont speak to us.,

also what of psalms 37?

and also what of the idea that is clearly stated in mathew 6? you do for god and he will take care of you?

hmm we need food, clothes and so on.
that is what copeland teaches.

i have a friend here who listens to him alot and she has never said that we must be rich or if not we are in sin.

she hates that teaching but she does believe that if God said it, believe on it and stand on it.

 

[Scotth1960]

dude , you dont know me. i am skepticaly of him in alot of ways but i also know what i have seen and were healed of by the lord

you would tell me just dont think about men and dont act on that sin as you cant change that nature.
balony, i know my God he took it

how would tell me to stop wanting porn?

theres no verse that says how God takes that from you at all only that he can

hmm how do you know the power of God if you dont expericence it?

what has God done for you?

do you talk to him?

i may not be the most powerful in the faith in my walk as i ought but i have seen things that only God could tell me.

he told my wife was high on pot and who she smoked with. i saw it all and had to confront her when i got back from afghanistan
he told me my then neighbors were drug addicts, yup true
he told me that another friend was pot user, yup also true

tell me God dont speak to us.,

also what of psalms 37?

and also what of the idea that is clearly stated in mathew 6? you do for god and he will take care of you?

hmm we need food, clothes and so on.
that is what copeland teaches.

i have a friend here who listens to him alot and she has never said that we must be rich or if not we are in sin.

she hates that teaching but she does believe that if God said it, believe on it and stand on it.

Dear friend, There is a difference between need and greed. God has promised to meet and fulfill all our needs, not all our desires. He has promised to be with us always, until the end of the age. In His Spirit, in Christ with (in) us, the hope of glory. We are called to be forgiven by Christ by asking Christ to forgive us for our trespasses, as we forgive those which trespass against us. God can forgive any sin, including sexual sins and use of porn. Those of us who have fulfilled the desires of the flesh in an immoral way need repentance and healing from Christ. Christ can and will heal all of the broken hearted. Also broken hearted me. He doesn't promise us material blessings or great wisdom or great popularity with others. He only promises to be with us always. That should be more than enough or us, and be glad that Christ is with you, Christ is with me, Christ is with those who write to this CF. To God be the glory for the things He has done for us all in Christ Jesus our LORD, AMEN. In Erie Scott H.

 

[jasoncran]

Dear friend, There is a difference between need and greed. God has promised to meet and fulfill all our needs, not all our desires. He has promised to be with us always, until the end of the age. In His Spirit, in Christ with (in) us, the hope of glory. We are called to be forgiven by Christ by asking Christ to forgive us for our trespasses, as we forgive those which trespass against us. God can forgive any sin, including sexual sins and use of porn. Those of us who have fulfilled the desires of the flesh in an immoral way need repentance and healing from Christ. Christ can and will heal all of the broken hearted. Also broken hearted me. He doesn't promise us material blessings or great wisdom or great popularity with others. He only promises to be with us always. That should be more than enough or us, and be glad that Christ is with you, Christ is with me, Christ is with those who write to this CF. To God be the glory for the things He has done for us all in Christ Jesus our LORD, AMEN. In Erie Scott H.

the problem here what is greed to me isnt gonna be greed to you. only God know what greed truly is

for instance if you by talent make a million dollars and i 30k a year and you give all but 50k a year to live on. and i zero

who is the greedy one??

 

[Alabaster]

To those who possess the wisdom of God:

Proverbs 10:22-24 NKJV
22 The blessing of the LORD makes one rich,
And He adds no sorrow with it.
23 To do evil is like sport to a fool,
But a man of understanding has wisdom.
24 The fear of the wicked will come upon him,
And the desire of the righteous will be granted.

 

[Scotth1960]

To those who possess the wisdom of God:

Proverbs 10:22-24 NKJV
22 The blessing of the LORD makes one rich,
And He adds no sorrow with it.
23 To do evil is like sport to a fool,
But a man of understanding has wisdom.
24 The fear of the wicked will come upon him,
And the desire of the righteous will be granted.

Psalm 49:5-10 ESV
"Why should I fear in times of trouble, when the iniquity of those who cheat me surrounds me, those who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever, and never see the pit. For he sees that even the wise die; the fool and the stupid alike must perish and leave their wealth to others."

God save us all. In Erie PA

You cannot take it (money) with you. The most precious thing is not a thing, but a Person Who gave all of His blood, shed on the cross to save our souls from all of our many sins. Sincerely, Scott H.

 

[Alabaster]

God will bless His own with wealth because He trusts them to do with it what He desires. He wants us to use our wealth to promote the gospel. He doesn't bless people who have a wrong mindset about money.

 

[Alabaster]

Proverbs 13:4; 11-13 NKJV
4 The soul of a lazy man desires, and has nothing;
But the soul of the diligent shall be made rich.

11 Wealth gained by dishonesty will be diminished,
But he who gathers by labor will increase.
12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick,
But when the desire comes, it is a tree of life.
13 He who despises the word will be destroyed,
But he who fears the commandment will be rewarded.

 

[Free]

The "Prosperity Gospel" is a false gospel. That's all I'm saying about it as nothing good can come from this discussion.

 

[Alabaster]

There is nothing wrong with preaching that God will prosper His children. The false gospel that everyone is up in arms about is the message that we are all supposed to be financially rolling in dough and possessions. I know of a church that was here locally and has since closed, thank goodness, that was teaching their people that God wanted them to have new houses and cars that particular year, so they all went out and bought new cars and got mortgages and bought new homes. When the reality hit that what they had succumbed to is greed, by that time many had become bankrupt for following the false teaching from the pulpit. As a result, we had a few poor disillusioned coming to our church for healing.

It is devastating, and that is the prosperity gospel we need to be railing against.

 

[reba]

The "Prosperity Gospel" is a false gospel. That's all I'm saying about it as nothing good can come from this discussion.

HEY! i can tell ya something good about this discussion! I agree with Alabaster!

 

[D4Christ]

Dear friend, There is a difference between need and greed....

Found this article from InPlainSite.org to be interesting.

Kenneth Copeland


[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]On July 7, 2008 Times Online reported that “Televangelist Kenneth Copeland refuses to render unto taxman†[/SIZE][/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]“It is not yours, it is God's, and you are not going to get it.†So saith Kenneth Copeland, the television evangelist, when asked to submit his ministry's private financial records to Washingtonâ€[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]With a sizeable share for the Copelands… [Emphasis Added][/SIZE][/FONT]​

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Mr Copeland certainly practises what he preaches. According to a report into the pentecostal charismatics, commissioned by the Senate, the ministry built Mr Copeland and his wife Gloria a mansion “the size of an hotel†.. and enabled him to acquire a $20 million (£10 million) Cessna Citation to help him to spread the word of God across the US. [/SIZE][/FONT]​
  
  
  
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Speaking to his assembled congregation on the runway by his new aeroplane, Mr Copeland said: “The Lord spoke to me and said ‘you're gonna believe for a Citation 10, right now'.†He also promised that the jet, one of four owned by the Church, “will never ever be used as for anything other than what is becoming of you Lord Jesusâ€. [/SIZE][/FONT]​
  
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The ministry also owns an airport capable of accepting jet landings, leases land for Mr Copeland's cattle and horses and also leases land to the family so that it can operate oil and gas wells.†[Times Online. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4281949.ece][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]An Associated Press article dated July 26, 2008 says[/SIZE][/FONT]​

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Copeland’s 1,500-acre campus outside Fort Worth is “testament to his successâ€. It includes a church, private airstrip, a hangar for the ministry's aircraft and a $6 million, church-owned mansion.[/SIZE][/FONT]​

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Newark, Texas - Here in the gentle hills of north Texas, televangelist Kenneth Copeland has built a religious empire teaching that God wants his followers to prosper. [/SIZE][/FONT]
  
  
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Over the years, a circle of Copeland's relatives and friends have done just that, The Associated Press has found. They include the brother-in-law with a lucrative deal to broker Copeland's television time, the son who acquired church-owned land for his ranching business and saw it more than quadruple in value, and board members who together have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for speaking at church events. [/SIZE][/FONT]
  

  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]While Copeland insists that his ministry complies with the law, independent tax experts who reviewed information obtained by the AP through interviews, church documents and public records have their doubts. The web of companies and non-profits tied to the televangelist calls the ministry's integrity into question, they say. [/SIZE][/FONT]
  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]"There are far too many relatives here," said Frances Hill, a University of Miami law professor who specializes in nonprofit tax law. "There's too much money sloshing around and too much of it sloshing around with people with overlapping affiliations and allegiances by either blood or friendship or just ties over the years. There are red flags all over these relationships." [/SIZE][/FONT]​

  
  

  [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Kenneth Copeland Ministries is organized under the tax code as a church, so it gets a layer of privacy not afforded large secular and religious nonprofit groups that must disclose budgets and salaries. Pastors' pay must be "reasonable" under the federal tax code. [/SIZE][/FONT]​
  
  

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Reasonable according to the Copelands is what most of us would consider a very hefty amount, more suitable to the hugely overpaid leeches on Wall Street. But then again what’s the difference? Leeches on Wall Street.. Leeches in the Church.[/SIZE][/FONT]​

• [FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]“Copeland's current salary is not made public by his ministry. However, the church disclosed in a property-tax exemption application that his wages were $364,577 in 1995; Copeland's wife, Gloria, earned $292,593.†[http://www.rickross.com/reference/kcm/kcm8.html][/SIZE][/FONT]​

 

[Alabaster]

I praise God for blessing the Copeland family.