[_ Old Earth _] Fast cooling magma

[dad]

How do you know that your Bible wasn't written as fireside entertainment? I don't know about you but I dont see this Jesus character still showing us he's around. However you can easily show the effects of the Greek Pantheon. When lightning strikes that is Zues. When a tidal wave kills thousands of people it is poseidon who is angry. Anyone can make up "Prophecies" in a book and then write a character who "fulfills" these prophecies.

No anyone can't do that. Predict a virgin birth centuries before the mother was born, a king named Cyrus, before he was born, which counties would take over Babylon, then the one that would take over that power, and the final powers we see now as well. The betrayal price of Jesus, method of execution, and fact that no bones were broken. The fact the nation of Israel would be a nation again near the end. Also the soon coming re starting of the animal sacrifices, and how the final world leader will stop them. Which countries will invade sucessfully Israel is also there, like headlines in a soon coming newspaper. All prohesies are accurate in the bible, unlike predictions from the hit and miss phycics as well.
Then there is the fact the the bible still works, and Jesus answers prayers, and manifests Himself inside the hearts and lives of untold billions over history.

 

[3kixintehead]

All prohesies are accurate in the bible, unlike predictions from the hit and miss phycics as well.
Then there is the fact the the bible still works, and Jesus answers prayers, and manifests Himself inside the hearts and lives of untold billions over history.

Actually physical laws can be predicted quite well. If I drop a ball. It will fall in whichever direction gravity is pulling. I was comparing your bible to a story book. And you still failed to tell me how it is not just another mythology.

 

[dad]

Actually physical laws can be predicted quite well. If I drop a ball. It will fall in whichever direction gravity is pulling. I was comparing your bible to a story book. And you still failed to tell me how it is not just another mythology.

Actually, physical laws as predictable as they are are subject to localized spiritual exceptions. Jesus walking on water, and replicating the loaves and fishes, as an example. In the past and future, our laws are not predictable either. Unless you can first prove they even existed back then! I don't think they did. Neither will they in the future. We are in a temporary exception universe that will pass away, with it's laws. You can't predict your way out of the fishbowl with those laws!

 

[moniker]

Right, science is on my side, as much as yours, something flood geology folks can't really say. You have no science to say the past was physical only like the present.

Burden of proof.

 

[dad]

Right, science is on my side, as much as yours, something flood geology folks can't really say. You have no science to say the past was physical only like the present.

Burden of proof.

Right, if you claim that science says the past was the same you bear that burden. I say science ends at the fishbowl of the present. (last 4400 years or so). If you claim it goes futher, back up your claim of science there. You are the only one that claims science applies there, only you bear the burden of proof!
I say the past of the bible was different. Physical And Spiritual, Together. I say one cannot have science apply there. Why would I claim science to say it does? Preposerous. You have the science claim, and I throw down the white glove. Your claim of science there, sir, is bogus.

 

[dad]

Right, science is on my side, as much as yours, something flood geology folks can't really say. You have no science to say the past was physical only like the present.

Burden of proof.

Right, if you claim that science says the past was the same you bear that burden. I say science ends at the fishbowl of the present. (last 4400 years or so). If you claim it goes futher, back up your claim of science there. You are the only one that claims science applies there, only you bear the burden of proof!
I say the past of the bible was different. Physical And Spiritual, Together. I say one cannot have science apply there. Why would I claim science to say it does? Preposerous. You have the science claim, and I throw down the white glove. Your claim of science there, sir, is bogus.

 

[moniker]

Right, science is on my side, as much as yours, something flood geology folks can't really say. You have no science to say the past was physical only like the present.

Burden of proof.

Right, if you claim that science says the past was the same you bear that burden. I say science ends at the fishbowl of the present. (last 4400 years or so). If you claim it goes futher, back up your claim of science there. You are the only one that claims science applies there, only you bear the burden of proof!
I say the past of the bible was different. Physical And Spiritual, Together. I say one cannot have science apply there. Why would I claim science to say it does? Preposerous. You have the science claim, and I throw down the white glove. Your claim of science there, sir, is bogus.

You say science is on your side. It's right there in the quote. I even bolded it for you. If you can't prove that science supports your idea then stop saying it supports it.

 

[dad]

You say science is on your side. It's right there in the quote. I even bolded it for you. If you can't prove that science supports your idea then stop saying it supports it.

The evidence and science we do have does support it as much as it supports your claims. That is only up to a point, however, yet you do not admit that. Nothing in science goes against the split. Nothing in science supports your same past! Do not claim it does.

 

[moniker]

The evidence and science we do have does support it....

proof? cite? quote?

Nothing in science goes against the split.

proof? cite? quote?

This is not a difficult concept to understand. You make a claim (which is what you did by authoring this thread) then you support that claim with evidence. Demanding other people falsify your claim and the failure to do so is evidence it is correct is a logical fallacy.

Do not claim it does.

I don't have to. The assumption lies on you being wrong until you prove yourself to be right. Now please, either provide evidence or leave it as your own interpretation of the bible.

 

[dad]

The evidence and science we do have does support it....

proof? cite? quote?

What evidence do we have? Any evidence I have ever seen goes along with the fact we are now in a PO universe.

[quote:3e9e6]Nothing in science goes against the split.

proof? cite? quote?[/quote:3e9e6]
Nothing. Do you see yourself or anyone else raising anything they claim, from science, that goes against this? No. If anything is raised I deal with it. I am not going to list everything in the world here, like seperation of the continents, that we know about. But, you name it, it fits fine.

This is not a difficult concept to understand. You make a claim (which is what you did by authoring this thread) then you support that claim with evidence. Demanding other people falsify your claim and the failure to do so is evidence it is correct is a logical fallacy.

Right, I make a bible claim, and supported it with bible. I point out that no science opposes it eaither. That is my claim. That it fits the science and bible we do have, it is not a claim of science. It is a claim that is science proof.

You, however, have a science claim if you are an old ager. If you follow the educational line, on things like big bamg, and evolution, and geologic, and cosmological old ages. All these depend on the present being the key to the past. Every facet of every science and field. No exceptions. Without a same past, there is no old ages!!! Yet, this basis of all so called science claims is utterly devoid of all and any evidence whatsoever!!!!!! Not the tiniest teensienst, single little thing!!!! That is the difference. Science claims need to be backed up by science, like their claims here.
My claim needs only to be backed up with the bible, as it is not a science claim. I claim science cannot, repeat can not go there, to the past, because the past was different, like they claim to be able to do baselessly. Get it?

My claim of science is just that all evidence anyone has ever brought up does not support their so called scientific claim. Neither does any oppose a different, merged past.

I don't have to. The assumption lies on you being wrong until you prove yourself to be right. Now please, either provide evidence or leave it as your own interpretation of the bible.

You cannot provide evidence from science for a different past. All they can do is look at evidence, assuming the past was the same. Neither you nor I. The same is true of a merged past, which is why I say that the past is beyond science's limits. Beyond the fishbowl. Nothing, no science in the fishbowl (and don't parrot, 'cite cite'-cause there is no need to cite all science) says there was or was not a same or different past!

 

[Slevin]

Right, I make a bible claim, and supported it with bible. I point out that no science opposes it eaither. That is my claim. That it fits the science and bible we do have, it is not a claim of science. It is a claim that is science proof.

dad, you gave your biblical support, and I commented on it. So far you have not answered my post. Clearly the bible doesn't support your contention.

Without a same past, there is no old ages!!!

Where's your logic on that one, dad? Who says that if the past is different there can't still be an old universe or even an OLDER one?

I claim science cannot, repeat can not go there, to the past, because the past was different, like they claim to be able to do baselessly. Get it?j

Your claim is unsupported so why do you believe it? If it's just as baseless as the scientists claims then why do you uphold your claim over theirs?

You cannot provide evidence from science for a different past. All they can do is look at evidence, assuming the past was the same.

No, all they do is look at evidence, and conclude what the evidence shows them.

 

[dad]

I assume this must be the post you say I didn't answer. Let's give er a shot then.

Here in our physical temporary universe, all we see is normal. In the future and the far past, the merged spiritual and physical is the norm.

That's not defining normal, you're actually just showing how arbitrary the word is.

Well, this temporary state is not the true normal one, no.

What rain IS, is not the question. What was is.


So now you're saying that rain wasn't water? :roll:

No. Of course rain is water.

When there was a supercontinent, the land was seperated from the waters. Later, the continents seperated.

You're saying the opposite of what you were saying before. Plus it doesn't even line up with scripture. You're just relying on your own interpretation.

No, there are two seperate things I talked about. One is this dividing the waters from the land in creation week. The other is dividing the supercontinent in Peleg's day.

Have you never heard that some fossils were found on different continents, that were similar, and that is one reason they came up with the idea that there was a supercontinent?


Who's they?

The ones that came up with the theory that the continents seperated to begin with. It was one of the reasons for the idea.

Basically, yes. The garden was planted. Plants were created on day three. Man on day 6, I think. We ate the plants, and fruit of trees.

It still shows nothing about how the forces of nature were different. After your supposed split God made the sun stand still for a day, Jesus rose from the dead, Lazarus rose from the dead, people ascended to heaven, etc.

But it does. It shows that things had to be different, because plants grew at a far different rate. It was not an isolated incident, or miracle. It was the norm. Later, we see the same rates in Noah's day. Lifespans were different as well. Light form far stars was seen by Adam. At today's speeds, this would be impossible. There was light created before the sun. Take away the sun now, and see what is alive in three days! Etc.

Uh...so because angels aren't doing women there is a separation....right. But God conceiving Jesus in Mary's womb isn't separation, Jesus being God AND Man and performing miracles isn't separation, God affecting everything in the bible isn't separation. You still have no scriptural support for your belief.

Well, since they were marrying women then, and we can't so much as see or touch them now, yes, I'd say that is more seperate.
Of course the virgin birth involved the spiritual. God Himself! But it was just Mary, not universal, not the norm for all mankind!

I'm not claiming that rocks decayed 5000 years ago. Prove that they didn't. The state of decay doesn't have to end, the universe will end and we will live in heaven.

You claim heaven is decaying then? So the sun will burn out, and stars, unlike I read in the bible. The earth will decay away out from under our feet one day too I suppose in your future?!!! Think about it.

And yet nowhere in the context does split mean "spiritual" split. Even if you are right with the lands being divided, nations being divided and tongues being divided, you still have no support to show that this applies to a spiritual division.

The word divide is not applicible only to the physical, where did you get that idea? Anything can divide. Heaven actually will see a war where satan is cast out. That sounds like some division. In the warning verse, even where God warns that something BIG is coming down for man in 120 years, He says this.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Right there we see the physical and the spiritual. To avoid the strife, there was the split.

For one thing they help guided early travellers, they were also used to show signs regarding the Messiah among other things. We wont need that stuff in Heaven.

But we'll have stars forever. I like them.

How do you know there was a different past? Of course it says there will be an eternal new heavens....that's where we will go once Jesus returns. This has nothing to do with the universe we live in now. It's entirely different.

So was the past. Look at the garden of Eden. Adam would have lived forever. There was the tree of life, also found in that coming new heavens. There was light that was not sun or starlight. In heaven we have no need of the light of the sun. A different light there as well. There will be no more curse. There was none in Eden. Animals will be friendly, and eat straw. We were not meat eaters in Eden either.
It seems clear that the past and future of the bible are different than the present.

 

[dad]

Where's your logic on that one, dad? Who says that if the past is different there can't still be an old universe or even an OLDER one?

It is not an accidental different past. It is the bible past. We know how long ago Eden was, more or less.

Your claim is unsupported so why do you believe it? If it's just as baseless as the scientists claims then why do you uphold your claim over theirs?

When choosing claims that involve some belief, I look to the bible.

No, all they do is look at evidence, and conclude what the evidence shows them.

So do I. They do not look at evidence that shows the past was the same. They assume the past was the same in their look at the evidence.\!

 

[Barbarian]

It's kinda fun arguing with dad. He first lets go with a lot of testable claims. Over time, as you shoot one down one after another, he gets careful and starts making untestable and vague assertions to stay out of trouble.

At that point, let him go, until he gets his confidence back.

That's the best way.

 

[dad]

It's kinda fun arguing with dad. He first lets go with a lot of testable claims. Over time, as you shoot one down one after another, he gets careful and starts making untestable and vague assertions to stay out of trouble.

At that point, let him go, until he gets his confidence back.

That's the best way.

Glad you enjoy it. Do you enjoy gambling as well? You get to lose a lot there as well.
Anyhow, speaking of claims, I await your trilobite with the eyes that only work in present light!!!! Your idea of shooting needs a tweak. Shooting off the mouth, and down a claim are two seperate things.

 

[Slevin]

Well, this temporary state is not the true normal one, no.

That's still not defining what normal is, dad.

No. Of course rain is water.

Then what's your point about that passage?

No, there are two seperate things I talked about. One is this dividing the waters from the land in creation week. The other is dividing the supercontinent in Peleg's day.

Which you have no contextual support for scripturally. You focus on one-liners and then beat your chest in victory?

The ones that came up with the theory that the continents seperated to begin with. It was one of the reasons for the idea.

Why do you accept that idea from "the ones"?

But it does. It shows that things had to be different, because plants grew at a far different rate. It was not an isolated incident, or miracle. It was the norm. Later, we see the same rates in Noah's day. Lifespans were different as well. Light form far stars was seen by Adam. At today's speeds, this would be impossible. There was light created before the sun. Take away the sun now, and see what is alive in three days! Etc.

1. Prove that plants grew at different rates other than the ones God initially created.
2. Prove that we see the same rates in Noah's day.
3. How do you know that light from far stars was seen by Adam?
4. The sun doesn't have to be the only source of light you know. It could have been anything, including God himself. How do you know he wasn't talking about creating the concept of light and darkness? You see a number of polarizations in Genesis.

Well, since they were marrying women then, and we can't so much as see or touch them now, yes, I'd say that is more seperate.
Of course the virgin birth involved the spiritual. God Himself! But it was just Mary, not universal, not the norm for all mankind!

You still haven't defined normal. They aren't marying women now because God was angry at em for doin it, they weren't supposed to in the first place....why do you think he flooded the world? So what if it was just Mary? It's clearly a spiritual thing, something of which the bible talks about ALL THE TIME. God puts his hand in everything, it even says so in the bible. If there was a separation, then God would have said so.

You claim heaven is decaying then? So the sun will burn out, and stars, unlike I read in the bible. The earth will decay away out from under our feet one day too I suppose in your future?!!! Think about it.

Where did I claim heaven is decaying? The bible says everything will pass away and God will create everything anew, perfect.

I am thinking about it, and so far you aren't being very pursuasive in your arguments....you've provided nothing but muddling speculation.

The word divide is not applicible only to the physical, where did you get that idea? Anything can divide. Heaven actually will see a war where satan is cast out. That sounds like some division. In the warning verse, even where God warns that something BIG is coming down for man in 120 years, He says this.

Anything CAN divide, that doesn't mean it happened. Satan has already been cast out, unless you're claiming that evil can abide in heaven. And that war has nothing to do with "physical" and "spiritual" splitting. Satan is a spiritual being...you're twisting yourself into a pretzel.

Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Again, all I see is one liners. You're quote-mining the bible, dude.

So was the past. Look at the garden of Eden. Adam would have lived forever. There was the tree of life, also found in that coming new heavens. There was light that was not sun or starlight. In heaven we have no need of the light of the sun. A different light there as well. There will be no more curse. There was none in Eden. Animals will be friendly, and eat straw. We were not meat eaters in Eden either.
It seems clear that the past and future of the bible are different than the present.

1. Show me where it says Adam would have lived forever.
2. If we have no need of the sun, why are you claiming there will be stars in heaven?
3. Why would animals only eat straw?
4. Prove that we were not meat eaters in Eden.
5. Obviously the past and the future of the bible are different than the present, the past and the future are always different...that's why they are the past and future.

 

[Slevin]

So do I. They do not look at evidence that shows the past was the same. They assume the past was the same in their look at the evidence.\!

Prove that they assume that.

 

[dad]

That's still not defining what normal is, dad.

For Christians, Jesus is the center of the normal circle. If you are talking the present, the present physical state is normal. If you are talking a different past, or the glorious future of the bible, there is a different normal than the present one.

Then what's your point about that passage?

Maybe ask a clear question, I can't remember what you are on about here.

week. The other is dividing the supercontinent in Peleg's day.[/quote]

Which you have no contextual support for scripturally.

Of cource I have support. Read creation week in Gen 1. The waters were seperated from the land. AS for the seperation in Peleg's day, that is opinion. Some experts, and bible commentaries think that there was a continental seperation at that time.

Why do you accept that idea from "the ones"?

Because they have evidence that the continents seperated. This is news to you?

1. Prove that plants grew at different rates other than the ones God initially created.

It was the ones created that had the fast growth rate in that different past. I think I already gave some support here for that. Noah's tree that was there a week after no tree was found, and plants created days before we ate them, and they were planted. Plus the tree of life difference in growth recorded.

2. Prove that we see the same rates in Noah's day.

I already cited bible evidence, no science can help you there.

3. How do you know that light from far stars was seen by Adam?

The stars were made for signs for man to see. He was then the only man. Elementary.

4. The sun doesn't have to be the only source of light you know. It could have been anything, including God himself. How do you know he wasn't talking about creating the concept of light and darkness? You see a number of polarizations in Genesis.

It kept the plants alive for one thing. Nothing says He created a concept. He created light before the sun. In heaven also we need no light of the sun, for we have the spiritual eternal light of God there as well.

You still haven't defined normal. They aren't marying women now because God was angry at em for doin it, they weren't supposed to in the first place....

I don't believe you! I think they may have been good parents, and had some fun sex, nothing wrong with that at all! What the hec are you talking about?

why do you think he flooded the world?

Oh, I have many ideas too big for this thread. I might offer the wicked then apparently had sex with some animals, and probably even off spring. They found I think it was chimp dna was quite similar.

So what if it was just Mary? It's clearly a spiritual thing, something of which the bible talks about ALL THE TIME.

Of course we have miracles, and localized application of the spiritual. But that is different than the norm being virgin birth. Or the norm being trees that grow in a week. etc.

God puts his hand in everything, it even says so in the bible. If there was a separation, then God would have said so.

He more or less laid it out, and painted the picture. I guess it wasn't something that was known before this.

Where did I claim heaven is decaying? The bible says everything will pass away and God will create everything anew, perfect.

I disagree. I think the newness is just a big change in the fabric of the universe. Many places indicate the sun, stars, and earth are forever. Only the surface of the earth is burned with fire, this world itself is eternal. Absolutely.

Anything CAN divide, that doesn't mean it happened. Satan has already been cast out, unless you're claiming that evil can abide in heaven.

What in heaven's name are you talking about? You mean the devil's visiting priviledge that will be revoked?

And that war has nothing to do with "physical" and "spiritual" splitting. Satan is a spiritual being...you're twisting yourself into a pretzel.

Did I say it did? Sometimes I wonder about you!

Again, all I see is one liners. You're quote-mining the bible, dude.

Treasures new and old I find there too. Address the issue I raised, and the great warning there, or cut the phoney attempted cleverness. You have no case.

1. Show me where it says Adam would have lived forever.

A guard had to be posted lest we snuck in and ate the fruit, and lived forever.

2. If we have no need of the sun, why are you claiming there will be stars in heaven?

That is what the bible indicates. There will also be a sun, we just will not need it in heaven, or that gold city. There are kingdoms on the outside, however, on the new earth that will need it perhaps.

3. Why would animals only eat straw?

That way no one has to kill, hurt or destroy. The bible tells us this clearly.

4. Prove that we were not meat eaters in Eden.

Maybe someone else could take this one, it is pretty basic stuff.

5. Obviously the past and the future of the bible are different than the present, the past and the future are always different...that's why they are the past and future.

They are different in so many ways, not just in tense.