FATE VS FREE WILL

[john darling]

Ah, I see seabass brought up the good Samaritan example before me! Good work, Seabass! Nice example.

 

[WIP]

I don't think Satan even knows or understands God, just from reading Job. Of course it's possible to not Love God, even as it is possible to not know Him. That doesn't mean Loving God or not loving God has to be a voluntary choice. Some people see a fool on the cross, while others see the power of God. Neither are voluntary. 1 Corinthians 23-24.

It sounds like what you're saying is that God determines whether one will love him or not. That would imply that we are robots programmed by God. Can you please address for me the question I asked regarding Mark 12:30? Why was this command necessary in light of what you're saying above.

 

[john darling]

Mark 4:15 says no different. Satan is "moved" into actions IN PEOPLE, by The Word of God, to resist, to steal, to kill and to destroy, EXACTLY as Satan was made to do and perform. Satan can do no other things that that which Satan was made BY GOD to do and perform.

Jesus concludes this parable by talking about people who bear much fruit when they "receive" or "act on" the words of Jesus. These are people who make a choice to act on what they hear. Satan comes around and adds a bit of influence too. He "takes away" the word which was sown in their hearts but only becasue they allow him to. Whether through fear or greed or whatever means, he tempts them away from faith in God. He cannot force us away. (Rom 8:38-39, John 10:28-29). But we can choose to turn away (Luke 9:62)

Then are those who fall on shallow ground. They persevere for a while but eventually choose to fall away. The persecution does not force them to turn away from faith any more than persecution caused the disciples to turn away from faith in God.

There are those who fall among thorns. They are choked by the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches. It's not that God wants this for them, but they make a choice to chase after such materialism and cares. jesus mentioned this same scenario in Luke 17:26-28. He talked about the days of Noah and Lot, how the people planted crops, built houses, bought and sold and married and gave in marriage; all normal, ordinary things. Yet Jesus mentions these things as the reason why they were destroyed. It's not that these things were bad in themselves, but that the people chose to put them before God. They were so caught up with the cares of this world that they didn't care about what God wanted. All choices they made.

The reason why there are several different kinds of seeds is precisely to show the kind of choices people will be faced with as a result of following God. "Count the cost". In Luke 14 Jesus talks about a person who starts to build a tower but cannot finish it. He talks about a foolish king who goes to war but does not consider if he has the resources to win the war. He talks about a need to "take up your cross" and follow me. These are conscience decisions we make to follow God which require careful consideration. Are we prepared to give up everything? Are we willing to take the lower seat and become a servant? Are we willing to lay down our lives? The answers to these questions mean nothing if we do not make them as beings with the freedom to say no.

There will be consequences to disobedience, but then again there will be consequences to obedience, too. "All those who live godly in christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" 2( Tim 3:12). All things like punishments, rewards, persecution, suffering, joy etc, they are all influences we experience. In the end, despite all these influences, we still have the choice to say yes or no to any of them.

 

[john darling]

(Post deleted, response to a deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[john darling]

I suppose I could have used the word "trust" instead but I suspect Satan does not love God. I also wonder, if it was not possible for us to choose to not love God then I would wonder why this commandment was given.

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." Mark 12:30 NKJV

:yes

 

[Seabass]

Here is the theological fact:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God did not cause the sin/unbelief.

In the OT God chose the Jews to be His chosen, elect people and gave them the law of Moses and the Gentiles were shut out.
In the NT the Jews rejected Christ so God cast them off and grafted in the Gentiles.

Paul says to the Gentiles in Rom 11:30 " For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,"
In times past, under the OT law, it was the Gentiles that were being disobedient to God. Now under the NT is was the Jews that were being disobedient by rejecting Christ. So in the history of time at some point both groups Jews and Gentiles were in disobedience to God.

God did not cause them to disobey. Going back to Romans chapters 1-3 where Paul concludes both Jew and Gentile under sin, and nowhere in the context does Paul say God caused/predetermined both groups to sin but Paul shows the Gentiles and Jews sinned of their own free will choice. At some point both Jews and Gentiles were found guilty of sin before God, so God shut both groups in unbelief so He may have mercy upon both groups. God grants pardon to both groups through the gospel of Christ and they MAY have this pardon if they conditionally obey Christ, Heb 5:9.

Here, another, same chapter:

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.


The spirit of disobedience. The spirit of slumber/stupor does exactly as God intended for same to do.

Acts 28:27 says they closed their own eyes and ears and God allowed them to do so, Rom 11:8.

A common idiom in biblical language is where God is said to actively do some thing when in realty He only allowed it to happen. They willfully closed their own eyes and ears and God allowed it. Since God allowed it, then in that sense God is said to have done it Himself.

God does not harden men - close their eyes and ears against their own will. God hardens men by giving them laws commands they do not want to follow. God gave Pharaoh the command to 'let my people go" and Pharaoh did not like this command so he hardened his own heart. Yet since God instigated the issue with Pharaoh then God in that sense is said to have hardened Pharaoh's heart for if God had just left Pharaoh alone then Pharaoh would never had a command to hardened his heart against. Likewise God gave the Jews laws and commands they did not want to follow which they harden their hearts against those laws and commands and it is in that sense God closed their eyes and ears.

Mark 4:15 says no different. Satan is "moved" into actions IN PEOPLE, by The Word of God, to resist, to steal, to kill and to destroy, EXACTLY as Satan was made to do and perform. Satan can do no other things that that which Satan was made BY GOD to do and perform.



There is no theological way to "extract" the Creator from being "implicated" in His creation. IF The Creator proves Superior to "all things" then there is NO FOUL or BLAME to be had, and such exercises "serve" His Purposes. The distribution and understanding of Divine Mercy being on the LIST of accomplishments. In addition to the instillation of HOPE. These DIVINE MATTERS arise from the ground of darkness, which God created to come forth from that environment.

God is certainly not in "need" of our excuses for His creation.


He Was, Is and Will Ever Be, Superior to all things. Therefore "all things" serve His Purposes:

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I happen to believe that God will take GREAT PLEASURE in proving His Divine Superiority over EVIL, and will do so by the EXTENSION OF DIVINE MERCY.

In Mark 4:15 they allow Satan to come in take the word out of their hearts, they allow themselves to be deceived by Satan. Satan cannot do anything to you that you do not allow him to do.

God being perfectly holy just and righteous means He cannot do evil. Yet if God causes men to do evil then God does have moral culpability that He causes men to do.

In the parable of the talents, the man with one talent, of his own free will, went and buried that talent but tired to blame his own free will action upon God...if God was not such a "hard man" (Matt 25:24) then I would not have buried it. What did that man get for blaming his own actions upon God? Matt 25:30 weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But what if God did cause/predetermine that man to bury his one talent????
Then that man would have been JUSTIFIED in blaming God for his actions and God looks like an evil ogre who causes men to do wrong just so He can then punish men. What should be done to parents who make their children disobey them just so they can punish their childrn? Go to jail for abuse or at least have those children taken away from them.

 

[Seabass]

(Post deleted, response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[OzSpen]

When I think of the word "free" I relate it to freedom, which implies an ability or option without consequence. In the US I have free speech but it's really not totally free. It is only free until I use my speech to infringe upon another's rights such as in the case of slander.

What I'm thinking is that in similar manner our will is not totally free. We can't do whatever our little minds and hearts desire without facing consequences for what we choose. I can choose to not love God but there will be a consequence for that choice so in that sense, my will is not free. It is my will, for God certainly does not will for me to not love Him, but it is not totally free....

Hope that helps clarify.

It doesn't clarify because it seems to me that you are confusing free will with the consequences of free will. Let's use your examples:

1. You do have totally free speech. You can use your speech to slander another. Nothing is stopping you from delivering that activity. Of course, there are consequences for you when you do that because your government has set those boundaries for the betterment of society. However, such punishments do not stop you from engaging in slanderous activity. You are free to slander - absolutely free to do it.
2. We can do whatever putrid, wicked, brutal activity our little minds and hearts choose to do. Nothing is stopping us from doing them. We are free to choose to do those impure things. Of course there are punishments (consequences), but those don't inhibit us from doing the depraved acts. We are free to do them.
3. You have the same problem with your example to choose not to love God. As an agnostic, atheist, skeptic, or disinterested person, you can choose not to love God (Calvinists would disagree with some of this point). Yes, there are eternal consequences for doing this, but this does not prevent the choice not to love God.

There is one primary area where I do not have a choice and that is in the area of sin. I cannot choose not to sin because I have a sinful nature that drives me to sin - thanks to Adam.

This is how Paul puts it: 'The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin' (Rom 7:14 NLT). In Rom 7:25 (ESV), Paul teaches, 'I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin' (Rom 7:25 NIV). The OT agrees, 'Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.' (Eccl 7:20 NIV).

Oz

 

[childeye]

(Post deleted, Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[childeye]

It sounds like what you're saying is that God determines whether one will love him or not. That would imply that we are robots programmed by God.

I have already said numerous times that we are programmed to Love others. Scripture doesn't describe it as being robots, scripture describes it as being children of God.

Can you please address for me the question I asked regarding Mark 12:30? Why was this command necessary in light of what you're saying above.

I have already said numerous times that to know God is to Love Him. Mark 12:30 is a response to a question by a scribe as to what is the greatest commandment. I believe the command is necessary because Israel needs to know there is only One True God. The commandment is in opposition to the lie that God is not trustworthy.

 

[OzSpen]

(Post deleted. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

(Post deleted for failing to comply with the following A&T guidelines:

• Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies.

Obadiah.)

 

[OzSpen]

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[Rollo Tamasi]

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[childeye]

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[childeye]

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[OzSpen]

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[OzSpen]

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[OzSpen]

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[Obadiah]

Closed for review.