FATE VS FREE WILL

[Corn Pop]

(Post removed per A&T guidelines: Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies. Obadiah)

 

[Butch5]

Sorry Mike, I probably should read more of the forums before I post.
Anyway, very briefly, I believe that our every action (free will) is known and predestined by God.
So even though it is our free will...

How is it free will if it's already predetermined, the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[n2thelight]

The Elect don't have free will...........All other's do.....Not all Christians saved or not,are of the Elect......

 

[WIP]

The Elect don't have free will...........All other's do.....Not all Christians saved or not,are of the Elect......

Please expand on this and remember this is the A&T forum so there are special guidelines to be followed.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

OK, so more like Armininism, and not Calvinism. Are you well versed in those two Doctrines? You better be posting stuff like that around here.

I am still a bit confused on how it's free will, if God already planned it anyway. Sort of sounds like you want the best of both worlds here..

God doesn't plan everything, indeed Scripture even states such.

and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind— Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)

God states that the sacrificing of children by Baal worshipers did not even enter his mind, which seems to me a clear indication that God was not casually responsible for planning that it come to pass.

This is just one example.

Calvinist believe God creates those to be roasted in hell and God makes those who won't have to roast in hell. Man has no free will. If they get sick, God already planned that. I am not so sure they go as far as to what color tooth brush you picked in 1984.

Not really a fair depiction of Calvinist doctrines, though many would say every single thing is predetermined and casually brought about by God.

Armininism believes man has a free will, but the Sovereignty of God is kept by God knowing what choices that man will make. Man has free will, but God knows what those choices will be.

Sovereignty of God is the assertion that God rules and reigns over the universe, not that he has to be intricately involved in all the happenings. He will deal with evil with his righteous judgement, but he also has afforded a degree of freedom for the people created in his image, to have a volitional ability to choose otherwise. Not that they can choose whatever they want arbitrarily, but that their choices are not predetermined by some kind of external factor.

Molinism believes God gives man free will, unless man is about to do something to alter a time line God does not want. God then intervene's so that the time line is the way he planned it, otherwise man is free to do what he wants as long as it does not cross over into God's plan for the man and change the time lines. God knows the outcome of all alternate realities, and gets involved only if a reality is not what God wanted.

Kind of, a molinist would describe it as middle knowledge, that as you said God has knowledge of not only what you will choose but what all the possible choices are... even knowing what it would take for you to make a certain choice.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Interesting discussion. I would like to put in my two cents before this thread violates tos by not enough scripture being posted.
The problem is the term free will implies a will free from any restraining factors such as fate or divine force. Hence according to that definition, free will is incompatible with fate. However we are in time, as Einstein has proven. Fate is inevitable and this is why prophecy is able to predict future events in scripture. I propose that free will is an equivocation, an ambiguous term when applied in a moral purview. 1 John 3:10.

Free will is not the best descriptive term, but volitional autonomy might be a good description or the power of contrary choice. The idea not that a person's choices are free from any outside influences, as that is certainly not the case, but that their decisions are not predetermined by some kind of other force outside of themselves, such as God decreeing what should and what should not take place.

Here is an example from Scripture.

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13 (ESV)

Notice that God is intervening in the events taking place in his divine providence, but he is only providing a means of escape from the temptation. Whether or not the person endures is regarded in the subjunctive, meaning it is in doubt or not certain. God isn't just letting things run its course independent of him.. yet at the same time he isn't determining human decisions by his sovereign decree.

 

[JesusBoy86]

God doesn't plan everything, indeed Scripture even states such.

and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind— Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)

Thanks for this scripture! I needed it

 

[childeye]

Free will is not the best descriptive term, but volitional autonomy might be a good description or the power of contrary choice. The idea not that a person's choices are free from any outside influences, as that is certainly not the case, but that their decisions are not predetermined by some kind of other force outside of themselves, such as God decreeing what should and what should not take place.

Here is an example from Scripture.

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13 (ESV)

Notice that God is intervening in the events taking place in his divine providence, but he is only providing a means of escape from the temptation. Whether or not the person endures is regarded in the subjunctive, meaning it is in doubt or not certain. God isn't just letting things run its course independent of him.. yet at the same time he isn't determining human decisions by his sovereign decree.

Volitional autonomy and power of contrary choice are also equivocations as pertains to moral choice. As I see it, there is either freewill, as in we are completely autonomous as pertains to moral behavior, or we are not and that autonomy is compromised, and only if in fact that autonomy even exists in the first place. You are arguing that there are degrees of autonomy without first clearly defining autonomy. The problem is the very spirit of the term autonomy, is an equivocation that carries with it semantic changes in connotations of terms that obscure any possibility of clear reasoning.

Consider if I said we are tempted to do good to others. I have just reversed the connotation of temptation while at the same time establishing that this man being tempted is first in a state of sin wherein he can be tempted to do good. While temptation to do evil can only come from a will that is already pre-disposed to doing good. Consequently, the only way any true understanding of such a term as freewill can be established, is by ascertaining what the adjective free is relative to. Otherwise disinformation is processed by our brains as legitimate, when in fact it is falsehood. And since such error is ultimately going to affect our choices, this would qualify 'free' will it's self as a foundational lie that holds men captive, so long as it is relative to both good and evil which are two moral opposites. In short, if one likes the idea of having this version of freewill defined as such, then that means we should thank God for the devil, otherwise we'd all be robots who could only do good. And this logically cannot be reversed in connotation since God came first. Hence the existence of a truly freewill is utterly dependent upon one's image of God, and not on one's ability to choose.

1 Corinthians 10:13 states there are temptations happening that are outside of our volition, as well as a means of escape being provided. by our Maker. You're saying that these wouldn't be applicable if men were not autonomous since a choice is being presented. I understand that, even though the presence of a choice is not any indication that the will is morally free. The question should be, is God testing us as to our goodness, or is God establishing our impotence to be good apart from Him?

 

[progman]

Galatians 7:8 "......for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

As I see it, then, we do have choices, we are equipped with free will. Having said that, I'm not saying that ones lives/fate cannot be influenced by other sources than your own decisions. "Fate" is a complex matter...

 

[childeye]

As I see it, then, we do have choices, we are equipped with free will.

Notice that I have said that the term freewill is an equivocation. Above you verify this. You say we do have choices and therein conflate choices with free will. Yet free will is not about having choices. Free will means voluntary action. The fact that one can sow to his flesh and reap corrupt things is proof that the flesh has it's own will that is contrary to our best interests. In the moral purview this is how it is, the spirit wars against the flesh. None of this is voluntary.

 

[n2thelight]

Please expand on this and remember this is the A&T forum so there are special guidelines to be followed.

Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

He foreknew them in the first earth age, and their success and love for Him. These are "the elect" of God, and in that first earth age God also predestinated them to be similar, or like the image of Jesus Christ [His son]. This is referring to the "only begotten Son of God" who died on the cross and arose again after the third day, and now sits on the right hand of the Father in heaven to be our advocate.

Remember back in verse [23], "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

The "first fruits" of the Spirit are those that God will intercede in their lives to make these Scriptures come to pass. Both "the elect" and the "free will" Christians have the first fruits of the Spirit, when they are in the Will of God, and are in obedience to our heavenly Father.

God made some of His children similar in their compassion, like Jesus Christ had when He went to the cross. They care about those lost souls, and open themselves up to be used by the Father, and they strive to never be deceived by Satan. Though we might fall short at times, but spiritually we know that Satan is our adversary, and enemy.

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified."

God is telling you here why He "predestined" them, and how He could do this and yet still have it all be in fairness to God. When God predestinated a person, He also "called" that person. There is a difference between "called" and "chosen"; for many are called, but few are chosen. When God called one to do His work, He also judged [justified] that person at that time.

The time of the judging was in the first earth age, at the time of the overthrow of Satan, before the foundations of this flesh age were formed. It was at that time that the Father made those that were "predestinated", "called and judged" [called the elect] to have a similar compassion for lost souls as Christ had. In that first earth age they became the "Zadok" or "the just", or "Elect" of this earth age.

These same souls of the Zadok are of great importance in the Millennium age, as is detailed in Ezekiel 44. Of all the times of centuries past, this generation is probably in the most exciting of all times past. We are witnessing the completion of all of God's Word come to pass, as the end of this age comes to a close.

When we are justified it doesn't mean that we don't pay for our sins in the flesh, but when you have been justified the Holy Spirit can interfere in the elect's lives and cause them to make a change in the direction that they are going. Paul's mind was set on killing Christians, and God Will was to make him the teacher and writer for Him of His Holy Word. God interfered with Paul's life on the road to Damascus, and struck him down blind, and when Paul then listened to God's instructions, the Spirit of God changed Paul's direction to glorify God, and Jesus Christ.

Paul is the best example..........

 

[LovethroughDove]

God predestined some to be part of his eternal family.

Romans 8:8 29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

There can be a predestined amount of people that will be in the kingdom, and still have it free-will. The scenario of the wheat and tares. Jesus spells it out plainly for those of us with ears to hear.Matthew 13:18-23

At any point in time you can turn to the light, and then you will be called a child of God. John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

The word goes through the whole world, and then harvest time. Matthew 24:14

We are God's field, and there is going to be a harvest of the righteous from that. He knows he is getting a harvest (that is the predestined), and we can choose the light or the darkness. (our will)

 

[Brother Mike]

Volitional autonomy and power of contrary choice are also equivocations as pertains to moral choice. As I see it, there is either freewill, as in we are completely autonomous as pertains to moral behavior, or we are not and that autonomy is compromised, and only if in fact that autonomy even exists in the first place. You are arguing that there are degrees of autonomy without first clearly defining autonomy. The problem is the very spirit of the term autonomy, is an equivocation that carries with it semantic changes in connotations of terms that obscure any possibility of clear reasoning.


1 Corinthians 10:13 states there are temptations happening that are outside of our volition, as well as a means of escape being provided. by our Maker. You're saying that these wouldn't be applicable if men were not autonomous since a choice is being presented. I understand that, even though the presence of a choice is not any indication that the will is morally free. The question should be, is God testing us as to our goodness, or is God establishing our impotence to be good apart from Him?

These escapes only come to those who choose to do the will of God though, otherwise there is no grace to overcome. Satan presented us another choice, choose death, by which Jesus came to destroy. Having the ability to choose death is not a good thing, and one would rather be better off not having that choice.
There is no free will though, there is only the ability to make a choice, life or death. If there was complete free will, then we could choose what we want based on what we want to believe.

 

[The_Epsicle]

It is clear from the Bible that we do nothing to achieve our Salvation because you can't earn a gift.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23 ESV

It is also clear that we have the will to choose what we want; unfortunately since the Fall, what we want is evil.

"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." - Genesis 6:5-6 ESV

Since we only want evil, we cannot by our own power believe in Jesus Christ.

"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." - Romans 8:7-8 ESV

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," - Ephesians 2:8 ESV

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me" - John 6:44-45 ESV

So everyone who believes in God can only give thanks to God because they could not even have Faith to believe if it were not for God giving them that Faith, so we see that the doctrine of man choosing to believe in God is unscriptural. So we also see that God predestines us for belief in Him:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." - Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30 ESV

Now we move on, does this mean that God by his divine authority also predestines some to be condemned? Let's examine some scripture to see the truth in this question.

"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death." - James 1:13-15 ESV

"Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" - Ezekiel 18:23 ESV

We now see that while human logic may entice us to say "If some are predestined to eternal life, then the rest must be predestined to hell." this statement while logically sound is a scriptural fallacy; you cannot blame a judge for sending you to prison after you commit a crime since it is obviously your fault.

So we can see that the man who believes in God only has God to thank for his belief

"For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Romans 9:15-16 ESV

and the man who denies God only has himself to blame for his unbelief.

"But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”" - Luke 16:29-31 ESV

 

[OzSpen]

Tell us what you believe!

The seed has been planted in my heart! I believe that we have free will which in turn is our fate.
Do you believe one way or the other?
I believe in Fate so much so that it comes down to the very moment you wake up everyday to the very moment you go to bed. I believe our whole lives are predestined and everything that happens to us, the good the bad and the ugly, is all a package God wrote in his Book long ago.
"is there anything of which can be said this is new? It has already been here in ancient times before us."

TELL US WHAT YOU THINK
Can you come up with bible verses?

JesusBoy86,

The idea of 'fate' is not a biblical doctrine. However, the teaching on God's sovereignty of the universe is core Christian teaching as the following verses demonstrate:

• In the parable of the labourers in the vineyard, Jesus said: 'Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ (Matt 20:15 ESV).
• To the Romans, Paul wrote: 'But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?' (Rom 9:20-21 ESV)
• Could anything be clearer than Eph 1:11 (ESV)? 'In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will'.
• This verse from the OT makes it abundantly clear that not fate, but God's sovereignty, rules the universe: 'Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all' (1 Chron 29:11).

So the biblical teaching is that God, as Creator of the visible and invisible world, is the owner of all there is and he has an absolute right to rule the universe according to his holy and wise counsel. Romans 13:1 (ESV) states of government: 'Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God'.

Oz

 

[WIP]

Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

He foreknew them in the first earth age, and their success and love for Him. These are "the elect" of God, and in that first earth age God also predestinated them to be similar, or like the image of Jesus Christ [His son]. This is referring to the "only begotten Son of God" who died on the cross and arose again after the third day, and now sits on the right hand of the Father in heaven to be our advocate.

Remember back in verse [23], "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

The "first fruits" of the Spirit are those that God will intercede in their lives to make these Scriptures come to pass. Both "the elect" and the "free will" Christians have the first fruits of the Spirit, when they are in the Will of God, and are in obedience to our heavenly Father.

God made some of His children similar in their compassion, like Jesus Christ had when He went to the cross. They care about those lost souls, and open themselves up to be used by the Father, and they strive to never be deceived by Satan. Though we might fall short at times, but spiritually we know that Satan is our adversary, and enemy.

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified."

God is telling you here why He "predestined" them, and how He could do this and yet still have it all be in fairness to God. When God predestinated a person, He also "called" that person. There is a difference between "called" and "chosen"; for many are called, but few are chosen. When God called one to do His work, He also judged [justified] that person at that time.

The time of the judging was in the first earth age, at the time of the overthrow of Satan, before the foundations of this flesh age were formed. It was at that time that the Father made those that were "predestinated", "called and judged" [called the elect] to have a similar compassion for lost souls as Christ had. In that first earth age they became the "Zadok" or "the just", or "Elect" of this earth age.

These same souls of the Zadok are of great importance in the Millennium age, as is detailed in Ezekiel 44. Of all the times of centuries past, this generation is probably in the most exciting of all times past. We are witnessing the completion of all of God's Word come to pass, as the end of this age comes to a close.

When we are justified it doesn't mean that we don't pay for our sins in the flesh, but when you have been justified the Holy Spirit can interfere in the elect's lives and cause them to make a change in the direction that they are going. Paul's mind was set on killing Christians, and God Will was to make him the teacher and writer for Him of His Holy Word. God interfered with Paul's life on the road to Damascus, and struck him down blind, and when Paul then listened to God's instructions, the Spirit of God changed Paul's direction to glorify God, and Jesus Christ.

Paul is the best example..........

Thank you for the response. My primary purpose for asking for this was to encourage you to reply according to the rules of this forum. Please keep this in mind going forward. Thanks.

 

[childeye]

There can be a predestined amount of people that will be in the kingdom, and still have it free-will. The scenario of the wheat and tares. Jesus spells it out plainly for those of us with ears to hear.Matthew 13:18-23

Defining free-will as voluntary action without restraint by fate or divine force, I don't see free-will anywhere in this parable. The enemy which is Satan sows the tares, they don't volunteer to be tares. Same with the children of God, God sows them and God is a divine force.

At any point in time you can turn to the light, and then you will be called a child of God. John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

I don't see free-will here either. Since everyone who does evil hates the Light, this scripture explains the predisposition that is the reason why they hate the Light. They don't just volunteer to hate the Light. Same with those who Love the Truth, they don't volunteer to do that either. One thing in common about the two scriptures you quote, is that the tares seek to stay hidden while the wheat want to be found. The children of God want clarity, while the children of the devil want ambiguity.

We are God's field, and there is going to be a harvest of the righteous from that. He knows he is getting a harvest (that is the predestined), and we can choose the light or the darkness. (our will)

Can a person who Loves the Light choose darkness? Apart from being deceived, I don't see how.

 

[OzSpen]

God doesn't plan everything, indeed Scripture even states such.

and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind— Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)

Doulos,

This passage from Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV) is an interesting one as it appears in a couple of other verses in Jeremiah. How does it affirm or contradict God's sovereignty over all things?

Evangelical systematic theologian, Wayne Grudem, investigates this:

'Another objection to the biblical teaching about God’s omniscience has been brought from Jeremiah 7:31; 19:5; and 31:35, where God refers to the horrible practices of parents who burn to death their own children in the sacrificial fires of the pagan god Baal, and says, “which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind” (Jer. 7:31). Does this mean that before the time of Jeremiah God had never thought of the possibility that parents would sacrifice their own children? Certainly not, for that very practice had occurred a century earlier in the reigns of Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Hoshea (2 Kings 17:17), and God himself had forbidden the practice eight hundred years earlier under Moses (Lev. 18:21). The verses in Jeremiah are probably better translated quite literally, “nor did it enter into my heart “ (so KJV at Jer. 7:31, and the literal translation in the NASB mg.—the Hebrew word is lēb, most frequently translated “heart”), giving the sense, “nor did I wish for it, desire it, think of it in a positive way”' (Grudem 1994:192) [1]​

Of course this raises the issue of the relationship between God's omniscience and sovereignty and the degree of freedom given to human beings and their future actions. I don't see this as being outside of God's sovereignty, but although I use the term free will, it is difficult to define precisely. Augustine used the language of 'reasonable self-determination', thus avoiding the language of free, freedom or free will.

​

Notes
[1] Grudem's footnote at this point was: 'The same phrase (“to have a thought enter into the heart”) seems to have the sense “desire, wish for, long for” in all five ofits occurrences in the Hebrew Old Testament: Isa. 65:17; Jer. 3:16 (where it cannot mean simply “have a factual knowledge of” ); 7:31; 19:5; 32:35; as well as in the equivalent Greek phrase ἀνέβη ἐπὶτὴνκαρδίανin Acts 7:23 (Grudem 1994:192, n. 5).

​

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1994. Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Defining free-will as voluntary action without restraint by fate or divine force, I don't see free-will anywhere in this parable. The enemy which is Satan sows the tares, they don't volunteer to be tares. Same with the children of God, God sows them and God is a divine force.

The free-will part, is that (light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light cause his deeds were evil)

The Word of God is the seed, and the Light is Jesus and those who love darkness hate the light. (choice)

Those who produce righteousness soak in the (seed), (have Light) and produce the wheat.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Volitional autonomy and power of contrary choice are also equivocations as pertains to moral choice. As I see it, there is either freewill, as in we are completely autonomous as pertains to moral behavior, or we are not and that autonomy is compromised, and only if in fact that autonomy even exists in the first place. You are arguing that there are degrees of autonomy without first clearly defining autonomy. The problem is the very spirit of the term autonomy, is an equivocation that carries with it semantic changes in connotations of terms that obscure any possibility of clear reasoning.

Is there anything that isn't an equivocation in your eyes? Your charge me with this several times, yet without demonstrating how it is an equivocation.

Autonomy, is the idea of independence and freedom as it pertains to the person's will, this isn't the end of the way I describe it. As a compatibilist would ascribe a degree of autonomy, I would say that a person's decisions are not 100% determined. Perhaps many decisions they make could not have been made otherwise, as I don't believe decisions are arbitrary. When you get into the science of how our brains work, decision making gets very complicated and making such strong philosophical arguments without an appreciation for the biological is a major weakness in many people's arguments.

Have you ever heard of Peter Tse's theory of Criterial Causation, a concept of Free Will based on neuroscience.

"In order to have a free will in the strong sense, there must be (a) multiple courses of physical or mental behavior open to us, (b) we must really be able to choose among them, (c) we must be or must have been able to have chosen otherwise once we have chosen, and (d) the choice must not be dictated by randomness alone, but by us.

A strong conception of free will is not compatible with either predetermined or random choices because in neither case do we decide which alternative to actualize from among many that might have been selected.

Criterial causation gets around the causa sui argument against both mental causation and free will by having neurons alter the physical grounds, not of present mental events, but of future mental events.

Self-causation only applies to changing the physical basis of making a presentdecision that is realized in or supervenes on that very same physical basis. Self-causation does not apply to changing the physical basis of making a future decision. While there can obviously never be a self-caused event, criteria can be set up in advance, such that when they are met, an action automatically follows; this is an action that we will have willed to take place by virtue of having set up those particular criteria in advance. At the moment those criteria are satisfied at some unknown point in the future, leading to some action or choice, those criteria cannot be changed, but because criteria can be changed in advance, we are free to determine how we will behave within certain limits in the near future. Criterial causation therefore offers a path toward free will where a brain can determine how it will behave given particular types of future input. This can be milliseconds in the future or, in some cases, even years away."
Source: http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/tse/