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Favorite argument for the existence of God.

D

dcurtis

Guest
I won't lie to you. I am an atheist. I have neither the blindness to simply accept the existence of God, nor the evidence to quantify any knowledge I think I may have of him. But if he (He?) is real, I suppose I should know that. So please, tell me your favorite argument for his existence. I honestly do want to know, and this is not meant to instigate a fight.
 
This will probably sound like a cliche answer to you, but here goes.

I believe in God because of faith. It's not just a blind faith though. The more I read the Bible, the more I see how God is at work in my life. When I pray earnestly as opposed to just speaking whatever is on my mind to myself and calling that prayer, I see answers and I am willing to take good along with bad. I can't explain what makes my faith in God more than just a belief, because so much of faith is letting the experiences we have build the faith we carry.
 
Your answer is not at all cliche. It's just such a foreign viewpoint to me. I really have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of shaping my life, my family, my politics, everything around how I feel when I have a conversation in my head or out loud with someone who may or may not be listening. I don't mean for that to come off wrong, but I do think that that accurately describes how I see it.
 
dcurtis said:
I really have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea ...

It must first come from the heart. The other way around doesn't work.
 
I understand what you're saying, but I've never heard of any system of belief of any kind that was hurt because it's followers, members or affiliates first found evidence for following that belief.
 
If it is a system of belief, and then it is met with undeniable proof, general this said system become more than just belief. The problem many have with religion is that it seems to go against the idea that belief requires evidence.

You've probably heard the analogy before, but I don't need to see a kangaroo to believe it exists.
 
The reason you don't have to see one? You've seen pictures.
 
In order for an argument for the existence of God to be meaningful, we would first have to agree what we mean by "God". While the following argument (or rather logical proof) which I devised, proves the existence of Supernatural Creation, it does not address the character of the Creator in any way.

Scientific Proof of Supernatural Creation

The efficacy of this proof depends upon the following three premises:

1. The Universe is finite. (Note: "Universe" means the total of all matter and energy that exists.)

2. The first law of thermodynamics holds, i.e. , within a closed system matter (and its equivalent, energy) cannot be created nor destroyed.

3. The second law of thermodynamics holds, i.e., the total energy within a closed system is continuously decreasing in its level of availability. In other words, entropy is increasing within any closed system. (Or in layman's terms, the system is "running down".

Notes on the premises:

1. The first premise in generally accepted within the scientific community. In fact a finite Universe is implied by the widely accepted "big bang" theory. This theory states that all matter and energy existed within a very small volume of space, smaller than a molecule of water, and since that time has been expanding, resulting in the Universe as we know it.

2. The first and second laws of thermodynamics are considered to be the most widely accepted generalizations known to science.

The Proof:

1. Since the Universe is finite, it is, itself, a closed system. Thus the first and second laws of thermodynamics apply to it.

2. Either the Universe always existed, or else it came into being (either instantaneously or over a period of time), or it is still coming into being.

3. The idea of the Universe always existing contradicts the third premise. For an infinite amount of time would have passed, plenty for entropy to have increased to the extent of inert uniformity. Thus the Universe did not always exist, but had a beginning, or is still coming into being.

4. If the Universe (total of all matter and energy) had a beginning, then its matter and energy couldn't have come into being within itself. For this would contradict premise 2. The same applies if the Universe is still coming into being.

Conclusion: Since the Universe had a beginning, and its matter and energy could not have arisen within itself, then it must have come into it from outside itself, from outside nature itself. That which is outside nature is the Supernatural. Thus the production of matter and energy within the Universe had a Supernatural Source.

Note: Of course, this conclusion in no way implies the characteristics of the Supernatural Source, whether personal or impersonal, and if personal, whether benign or malignant.
 
dcurtis said:
I understand what you're saying, but I've never heard of any system of belief of any kind that was hurt because it's followers, members or affiliates first found evidence for following that belief.

I would suppose the disciples had all the evidence they needed as far as the NT is concerned.
So the matter still becomes one of belief... Do I believe their testimony or not?

But again, it all starts from the heart. The change from unbelief to belief does not come from an external source as the evidence you wish to have presented. It comes from within. How can I show you the source of what comes from within me? How can I put into your heart what I have in mine?

It doesn't hurt Christianity at all for the evidence uncovered. There is plenty of evidence to support the Christian belief. Up until 10 years ago I chose not to believe that evidence. For 45 years I rejected it all as invalid one way or another. It still comes down to that which is within. If one choses not to believe then all the evidence presented will be in vain. If one choses to believe then all the evidence presented is irrefutable.


Christ's entire ministry was based on matters of the heart, the inward man. From within comes the actions of the self. From within comes the faith.

Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mark 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mark 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
 
Hi everyone,

I love you all. This question is the main reason God made some men Apolgetists.

I as a person in the position of the original inquirer, I would also think that he should say, "lets set our watches and calanders down and close the bible and talk about the forces about us, to discuse the foundation of a God worthy of worship? What are the evidences that really do demand a verdict than none can deny?

I have only asked myself how to answer that question in contense of the defense of the Christian belief systom and The Gosple of Jesus Christ, recently. I am a novist in formal educational conversation here, so bear with me, because I believe I am a "special creation" and my calculater hit a nitch at 10 to the 100th power.

I have a hard time not seeing design. That design of character and intellect speeks that men were made to sit hear on earth and study and ask questions about why we are and have been sent on a journey of discovery. We are just a continuing discussion that has been going on for a while and we are picking up where others left off.

First, Thanksgivings really needs made to all the blood swet and tears that life has shed to bring us to this hour in exsistance and conversation in an open format as this. The character evidence again. The synergetic energy of that spirit in us who believe, knows that being thankful is an appropriate expression for all that has gone before. All things are so telling, I just want to say, your really asking the wrong question anyway., , but that is unfair because it pre assumes your some kind of person in need of prayer.

So, I have an ethic that says not to debate, but to declair His Word. That is going to make this conversation hard. Perhaps it just needs left to say the table is set, if someone doesn't like the menu they were given in life, Jesus said "whosoever willeth, come unto me and I will in no way cast off". I am sure there is not a Christian or saint who would not fully recieve one who repented, as we have, and then joined the everlasting choir of God welcoming yet another sinner come home.

I wish I were more argumentative, I might tell you lots of things, best thing though, He is true and faithful and He does not lie, His love is wonderful and He doen't need to explain why. It is a character issue after all.

I hope that helped somebody. Jesus, Hope of the World, Jesus risen Lord.
 
dcurtis said:
So please, tell me your favorite argument for his existence. I honestly do want to know, and this is not meant to instigate a fight.

Reason. The existence of the laws of logic. If you choose to believe they exist (you cannot prove nor disprove it... ie you end up in a circle begging the question or you deny what you are using to disprove it) If you accept the laws of logic are real, then you have already accepted a construct beyond what we see in material and have affirmed a "super" "natural" not far from a concept of the divine. Even so, if we have laws of logic, it is a reasonable argument there must be a law giver.

Morals are my second favorite argument. But that depends if you believe morals are absolute or not. There is, in my opinion, overwhelming evidence that they are absolute. Even those who believe they are relative, live their lives and make appeals as if there are absolute moral laws. Again if there is an absolute moral law it is a reasonable argument there must be a law giver.

Looking at the historical veracity of the man Jesus raising from the dead is another good argument. Especially if you treat it with the same standards as we treat the rest of what we think we are certain about from antiquity.

But yes, ultimately it is the heart that changes.... arguments only bring you so far...
 
I think God declares His own existence better than I ever could, so who am I to think I could do any better?
 
Paidion said:
In order for an argument for the existence of God to be meaningful, we would first have to agree what we mean by "God". While the following argument (or rather logical proof) which I devised, proves the existence of Supernatural Creation, it does not address the character of the Creator in any way.

Scientific Proof of Supernatural Creation

The efficacy of this proof depends upon the following three premises:

1. The Universe is finite. (Note: "Universe" means the total of all matter and energy that exists.)

2. The first law of thermodynamics holds, i.e. , within a closed system matter (and its equivalent, energy) cannot be created nor destroyed.

3. The second law of thermodynamics holds, i.e., the total energy within a closed system is continuously decreasing in its level of availability. In other words, entropy is increasing within any closed system. (Or in layman's terms, the system is "running down".

Notes on the premises:

1. The first premise in generally accepted within the scientific community. In fact a finite Universe is implied by the widely accepted "big bang" theory. This theory states that all matter and energy existed within a very small volume of space, smaller than a molecule of water, and since that time has been expanding, resulting in the Universe as we know it.

2. The first and second laws of thermodynamics are considered to be the most widely accepted generalizations known to science.

The Proof:

1. Since the Universe is finite, it is, itself, a closed system. Thus the first and second laws of thermodynamics apply to it.

2. Either the Universe always existed, or else it came into being (either instantaneously or over a period of time), or it is still coming into being.

3. The idea of the Universe always existing contradicts the third premise. For an infinite amount of time would have passed, plenty for entropy to have increased to the extent of inert uniformity. Thus the Universe did not always exist, but had a beginning, or is still coming into being.

4. If the Universe (total of all matter and energy) had a beginning, then its matter and energy couldn't have come into being within itself. For this would contradict premise 2. The same applies if the Universe is still coming into being.

Conclusion: Since the Universe had a beginning, and its matter and energy could not have arisen within itself, then it must have come into it from outside itself, from outside nature itself. That which is outside nature is the Supernatural. Thus the production of matter and energy within the Universe had a Supernatural Source.

Note: Of course, this conclusion in no way implies the characteristics of the Supernatural Source, whether personal or impersonal, and if personal, whether benign or malignant.
That is brilliant! Very sound logic.
I think the strongest argument I can think of against it is this idea of time itself having been created at the big bang; if the idea of 'before' the big bang is nonsensical because there was no time before the big bang, I think you could possibly argue that to say that energy and matter existed or didn't exist (or that the universe did or didn't contain a particular amount of energy/matter) before the big bang is equally nonsensical.
 
I think God is best revealed in his creation. Does it make sense that a bunch of senseless molecules, decided to put themselves together in such intricate ways; Absolutely not!!.

Even those who believe in evolution would have to admit, it took some intelligent design to start the ball rolling. I had a friend who was an agnostic, his trouble was he had not met God face to face, so he could not recognize God. He is dead now, and unfortunately he will get his chance to meet God face to face; but altogether too late.

So just take a long look at his creation, and see if you can really believe in evolution; I cant!!. So that means there has to be a creator, and that creator is God.

The “big bang†theory meets its warterloo, when it can’t explain the primary basis for it, the singularity. There is no explanation for it, therefore that singularity has to be God. Even Einstein spent the last part of his life, trying to prove his own theories harmonized with a creator God, which he could not shake. So the Bible is correct when it says “only a fool says there is no Godââ¬Â.
 
Hi,

I entered an idea that the whole of it is a charactor issue. That is a form of evidence that one can not verify if they are not intouch with their innerself. So, I will bring my best empirical eveidence.

It all works, and it all works for the glory of God, loving and providing for life on earth. You and I are the crown of this Creation, we are a special creation. We have been given Gods charactor in sinful flesh. We love, with kindness and patience. We express ourselves replicating self sacrafice for others and most of all, we Honor all that is Sacred, because the God of love in our hearts shows us it is right to do.

The statement that God is evidenced in the world but lives above or beyond this universe is His voice on the matter for us to except or reject. The theme of faith is present because as Jesus said "you are blessed who believe without seeing". The issue of using your faith to repent and believe and place your faith in Jesus the unseen God is paramont to seeing God. Ye must be born from above to see the Kingdom of Heaven.

Hope that helps somebody. Ever, Sin is the Problem, Jesus is the Answer. It amazes me.
 
JohnMuise said:
What keeps my Faith strong is science, Everyplace i look i see his great works.
Science is God's gift to man that man may stand in ever-increasing awe of His glory and power.
 
dcurtis said:
I won't lie to you. I am an atheist. I have neither the blindness to simply accept the existence of God, nor the evidence to quantify any knowledge I think I may have of him. But if he (He?) is real, I suppose I should know that. So please, tell me your favorite argument for his existence. I honestly do want to know, and this is not meant to instigate a fight.

My favorite is St Thomas Aquina's Five Proofs. They go like this:

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence  which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
 
Hi any and everyone,

It dawned on me that The Lord gave us Jesus to answer the questions of how and why we are here and what is our relationship with the God who is the author of life on earth. He is our wisdom and was make Head of every man brought into the world. He and all the scpitures denote Jesus came as a High Priest over all who would come unto Him. Further, He was made wisdom for us

Jesus said "if you believe in God believe also in Me, all who are thirsty come, all who willeth come, all who are oppressed come, all who are weary and need rest come. If you can not believe me for my words sake believe me for the works that I do for they show the power of God through me.

I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE EVERLASTING, "I Am" the key and the door and no man comes to the Father except by me.

Only Jesus died for the redemption and frogiveness of our sins. He who knew no sin became sin because and for our freedom and liberty. He was raised unto incorruptable life and leads us onward. He told us the gates of hell will not persist against the gates of heaven. His Kingdom established and maintained from above where God rules is supreme.

To a person who says prove God to me before I can believe He sent an answer for all the sin and discourse, He will answer your question sincerely through His saints as well as natural evidences of His great and wonderful power. Individuals will choose if they will follow and let Him do what He was sent to do in and for us. He is the Great Provider.

An Atheist started this and we are told not to cast our riches before the world who only want to consume the joysHe has given us as most of them have non of His life in them.

Jesus is the "HOPE OF THE WORLD" THE WORLD SEES AND KNOWS HIM NOT NIETHER DO THEY HERE GOD SPEEKING TO THEM, CONSERNING HIS MOST EMMINET RETURN. That doen't mean they don't know they were made to be advocares at our table they just can not understand our conversation in Heaven with Jesus our guide and first fruit from the dead and with all the saints who follow.

I do love the way they say because of Jesus, that way way far away they have a little light telling them they might live forever as well. I say high to all and what are you so afraid of. He rose again to tell us about it. I say dear Jesus , Keep telling us, we need your infallible Truths to lead us on.

Read the Bible and let Him speek for Himself until His coming.

Many Blessing He gives, may they all appear to be sent from Him who loves us and Died on the Cross that we might become the sons of the living God with all the saints before.

Later, see yah!
 
The only argument that impressed me was meeting Him.

After that the others made sense.
 
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