Fear of the reality of a burning hell

[Willie T]

“Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” by Jonathan Edwards

That is probably the most well-known sermon preached in the history of the United States – but have you ever actually read it?

The sermon is known for its part in The Great Awakening. Because of its “hellfire and brimstone-y” tone, many think Jonathan Edwards was a screamer in the pulpit. He was not. His Puritanism wanted to eliminate any show of emotion in the speaker in order for the words of the sermon alone to do the speaking, applied to the listener by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he delivered the sermon in a monotone. This was also not the first time he had delivered this sermon. The date everyone remembers, though, is July 8, 1741 in Enfield, Connecticut. He used a phrase from Deuteronomy 32:35 as his text: “their foot shall slide in due time:” The entire verse is: “To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.”

http://edwards.yale.edu/archive?pat...uZXdwaGlsby9nZXRvYmplY3QucGw/Yy4yMTo0Ny53amVv

tob

That was required reading in school. (I even have it on my computer today) Edwards was a great man, but that sermon was a horrible example of a picture of God. However, it DID get me to read another thing, a book.... Saints in the Arms of a Happy God. A lot of typos (he now has a good proof-reader) but an excellent book.

 

[turnorburn]

What we see as a nightmare and God knows to be an eternal nightmare are two different things.. Jesus gives us something we can understand in a few places this is one of them..

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

We don't hear much if any preaching about hell anymore, the devil must love it because we aren't presenting the full gospel..

tob

 

[Edward]

Probably not. The only parties I can conclusively "rule" into hell are the devil and his messengers. And yes, it's eternal.

But beyond this we are not led to tread, other than by our own blinded sights. Traditional orthodoxy recognized this "factoid" long ago, and made room for what they might term "Overwhelming Grace" at least as a potential and possibility. Some, not many, but some of the "better minds" of christian theology recognize this wildcard factor DOES exist within The Power of God in Christ.

Anyone who thinks that the possibility of Overwhelming Grace isn't a possibility is just guessing that it doesn't exist. I prefer to say that, yes, it is definitely a possibility, but that possibility doesn't extend to the devil and his messengers who were made to be ultimately destroyed by God in the Lake of Fire.

Wow, wouldn't that be a slap in the face of Satan lol...

 

[smaller]

Wow, wouldn't that be a slap in the face of Satan lol...

My petty beliefs are big enough to see Overwhelming Grace of God in Christ, at least as a possibility. And traditional orthodoxy has accepted this for quite some time.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Probably not. The only parties I can conclusively "rule" into hell are the devil and his messengers. And yes, it's eternal.

But beyond this we are not led to tread, other than by our own blinded sights. Traditional orthodoxy recognized this "factoid" long ago, and made room for what they might term "Overwhelming Grace" at least as a potential and possibility. Some, not many, but some of the "better minds" of christian theology recognize this wildcard factor DOES exist within The Power of God in Christ.

Anyone who thinks that the possibility of Overwhelming Grace isn't a possibility is just guessing that it doesn't exist. I prefer to say that, yes, it is definitely a possibility, but that possibility doesn't extend to the devil and his messengers who were made to be ultimately destroyed by God in the Lake of Fire.

Good points. I think it's a possibility, but not something to scratch off as a definite or a definitely not. Either way I don't think satan and his messengers are getting any second chances.

 

[Edward]

My petty beliefs are big enough to see Overwhelming Grace of God in Christ, at least as a possibility. And traditional orthodoxy has accepted this for quite some time.

I see the possibility also, but I am reminded of John 21:22...:wink

...and wonder if this could be one of those situations where...maybe its not pleasing to the Lord for us to discuss things like this??

 

[Milk-Drops]

Well, it's our choice to go there or not.

Its actually isn't. Its not a choice in a way because choice assumes that there is informed consent. Its not a choice but a consequence, For one God/ Jesus has final say on who goes, its definitely not a choice.

No, no-one deserves an eternity of torment, but neither does anyone deserve an eternity of heavenly bliss. No-one is that evil, but by the same token, no-one is that good. Man is given free will to choose option A or B; there are no other choices.

You know, if a human did this with their children, we'd see them as monsters. The concept of Hell is actually very bizarre, it actually sounds very human.

Fear is not the best reason to avoid hell, but it is a reason. If it helps keep me on the right course, I'll take it.

The problem with that thinking is what if you don't believe in hell one day? Would you all of a sudden start committing horrible acts?

 

[KevinK]

Its actually isn't. Its not a choice in a way because choice assumes that there is informed consent. Its not a choice but a consequence, For one God/ Jesus has final say on who goes, its definitely not a choice.

A couple people have made this response, and I think it all depends on your perspective. We have free will whether to accept Jesus' gift of salvation and follow God's rules of living. If we do, God will judge us worthy of Heaven; if we don't, then the judgement is Hell. It is God's judgment, but still our choice. I especially like Bill Weise' response to this question:

Is God mean and unloving for making hell?
Would you say that the leaders of our country are mean for constructing prisons?

No, you don’t have to go there. It’s your choice. When the first leaders came to this country, they did not have prisons in mind, but only the great opportunities this land had to offer. In the same manner, when God first made the earth and man, He saw the beauty and was happy to give it to man. He did not have hell in mind. Besides, Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for man (Matt.25:41). But if men reject the only way into heaven, there is no other place for the soul to go. The soul of man is eternal, because we are made in God’s image (Gen.1:26). Besides, sin must be punished (Rom.6:23), as God is a just God (Deut.32:4; Ps.96:13). He took out the punishment on Jesus on the cross (1Cor.15:3-4; Gal.1:4), but if we reject God’s provision for our sins, then we must take the punishment. It is our choice. We condemn ourselves to hell by our own words (Matt.12:37; Deut.30:19; Ps.86:5, 145:8-9; John 3:16; Rom.5:8, 18; 2Cor.5:21; Ps.9:17; Pr.11:19, 21; 2 Pet.2:9; Rev.20:13-15).

Bill Weise
https://soulchoiceministries.org/faqs/

 

[KevinK]

"No, no-one deserves an eternity of torment, but neither does anyone deserve an eternity of heavenly bliss. No-one is that evil, but by the same token, no-one is that good. Man is given free will to choose option A or B; there are no other choices."

You know, if a human did this with their children, we'd see them as monsters. The concept of Hell is actually very bizarre, it actually sounds very human.

Not sure what you mean here, but all I can say is that I don't presume to understand even a fraction of God's ways. What may seem extreme to us is to Him nothing but Divine Justice.

 

[KevinK]

"Fear is not the best reason to avoid hell, but it is a reason. If it helps keep me on the right course, I'll take it."

The problem with that thinking is what if you don't believe in hell one day? Would you all of a sudden start committing horrible acts?

The answer is to not stop believing. No-one said this is easy. (It does help if you've actually seen it, btw).

 

[Milk-Drops]

Not sure what you mean here, but all I can say is that I don't presume to understand even a fraction of God's ways. What may seem extreme to us is to Him nothing but Divine Justice.

Ok, lets say you have a daughter and you asked her if she loved you. She says she doesn't. So out of anger you pick her up and throw her into a boiling vat of oil and keep yelling at her that she chose that and you really love here but she gets that for not loving you.

However your son says he loves you so you feed him the best food and make sure he is pampered.

That would be the actions of a monster. The concept of hell is actually childishly simple. Its a place to put bad people, but how people end up there is some of the most petty of reasons.

Maybe that is why obliteration theology was a very popular concept for a long time. It makes more sense that there would be a single punishment and then a cease of existence.

 

[Milk-Drops]

The answer is to not stop believing. No-one said this is easy. (It does help if you've actually seen it, btw).

So you've seen heaven and hell? What did you bring back with you? How do you get there? Where is it?

 

[KevinK]

The problem is that its not Jesus himself telling you, but instead fallible people presenting this message. A message that is written in an extremely dense book that was not always available to the common man.


Which means choice would altered depending on who is delivering the message and a person's ability to reason. Big problem there. Not all humans have the same reasoning skills.

Are you referring to the Bible?

 

[KevinK]

Ok, lets say you have a daughter and you asked her if she loved you. She says she doesn't. So out of anger you pick her up and throw her into a boiling vat of oil and keep yelling at her that she chose that and you really love here but she gets that for not loving you.

However your son says he loves you so you feed him the best food and make sure he is pampered.

That would be the actions of a monster. The concept of hell is actually childishly simple. Its a place to put bad people, but how people end up there is some of the most petty of reasons.

Maybe that is why obliteration theology was a very popular concept for a long time. It makes more sense that there would be a single punishment and then a cease of existence.

Like I said I don't understand it, I just try to follow it.

 

[KevinK]

So you've seen heaven and hell? What did you bring back with you? How do you get there? Where is it?

Just Hell. It's currently in the center of our earth.

 

[jeff77]

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