Bible Study Fellowship and Unity

[Douglas Summers]

The bonding together of the body of Christ is needed, not only to build the temple of God, but to show forth the praises of His Glory and the soundness and safety of our souls to eternity. For we are the temple of God where He resides. (1 Cor. 6:19) (Col. 3:13-15).

How do you deal with the Diotrephes (preeminence) in the Church that destroys Fellowship and unity)? (3 John 1-14) (Scripture references)

 

[Runner]

Diotrephes sounds like an extreme case, actually casting brothers out of the church, but Matthew 18:15-17 gives pretty clear guidance on how to deal with someone who is sinning, including sinning in a way that destroys the fellowship and unity within a church. At some point he is cast out and perhaps goes on to start a 33,001st Christian denomination to add to the 33,000 that already exist! (33,000 is a popularly cited figure, but your mileage may vary.)

I don't read 3 John 1:9 as suggesting that Diotrephes' desire for "preeminence" was the problem. The problems were the actions he took, perhaps motivated by a belief that he was preeminent. The typical church structure with a pastor, assistant pastor, music leader, youth leader and deacons makes some individuals "preeminent" to some degree, so this in and of itself is not a hindrance to fellowship and unity. It sounds as though Diotrephes was more of a usurper.

But let's cut to the chase: "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?" James 4:1 (NASB, emphasis added). There is no fellowship and unity within Christendom - never has been, never will be. There are tens of thousands of denominations and hundreds of thousand of churches, all rife with internal and external fussing and feuding, because everyone has his or her own idea as to what constitutes "Christianity" and what constitutes "fellowship and unity." The fussing and feuding is largely just a manifestation of the egotistic and selfish desires battling within the individual believers, all of whom want to point to the others as the problem.

This is indeed a puzzling state of affairs, especially if the Holy Spirit is uniquely at work within Christianity. Since there is such a lack of fellowship and unity, most Christians take the easy way out: The Holy Spirit is at work within their lives/churches/denominations, they say - but not those other lives/churches/denominations, who lack "correct understanding," preach "false doctrine" and engage in "ungodly practices."

When someone asks, "Why can't we have more Christian fellowship and unity in this church, in this denomination, on this forum?" all they ever really mean is either (1) "Why can't we at least pretend to be nicer?" or (2) "Why doesn't everyone just admit I'm right about everything and get in line behind me?" Diotrophes is always the "other guy," not me.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Diotrephes sounds like an extreme case, actually casting brothers out of the church, but Matthew 18:15-17 gives pretty clear guidance on how to deal with someone who is sinning, including sinning in a way that destroys the fellowship and unity within a church. At some point he is cast out and perhaps goes on to start a 33,001st Christian denomination to add to the 33,000 that already exist! (33,000 is a popularly cited figure, but your mileage may vary.)

I don't read 3 John 1:9 as suggesting that Diotrephes' desire for "preeminence" was the problem. The problems were the actions he took, perhaps motivated by a belief that he was preeminent. The typical church structure with a pastor, assistant pastor, music leader, youth leader and deacons makes some individuals "preeminent" to some degree, so this in and of itself is not a hindrance to fellowship and unity. It sounds as though Diotrephes was more of a usurper.

But let's cut to the chase: "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?" James 4:1 (NASB, emphasis added). There is no fellowship and unity within Christendom - never has been, never will be. There are tens of thousands of denominations and hundreds of thousand of churches, all rife with internal and external fussing and feuding, because everyone has his or her own idea as to what constitutes "Christianity" and what constitutes "fellowship and unity." The fussing and feuding is largely just a manifestation of the egotistic and selfish desires battling within the individual believers, all of whom want to point to the others as the problem.

This is indeed a puzzling state of affairs, especially if the Holy Spirit is uniquely at work within Christianity. Since there is such a lack of fellowship and unity, most Christians take the easy way out: The Holy Spirit is at work within their lives/churches/denominations, they say - but not those other lives/churches/denominations, who lack "correct understanding," preach "false doctrine" and engage in "ungodly practices."

When someone asks, "Why can't we have more Christian fellowship and unity in this church, in this denomination, on this forum?" all they ever really mean is either (1) "Why can't we at least pretend to be nicer?" or (2) "Why doesn't everyone just admit I'm right about everything and get in line behind me?" Diotrophes is always the "other guy," not me.

Much of what you say is true, but that was not the question. What does Scripture say about unity and fellowship in the body.
For instance (Eph. 4:1-6). Scripture should edify, encourage and give us a check of our walk with God, much of Christendom is like our government. Democrats and Republican are at each other with a lot of petty and even childish accusations, when we would be better off with their intended purpose, a united government body, But instead each one looking after their own self interest and beliefs, and putting the American citizen in servitude to themselves.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Douglas. This is my favorite verse on unity in any fellowship....1Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Our Lord led me to a troubled church in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. I started my preaching in 1st Corinthians. When I preached verse 10, all hell broke loose because it challenged the elders who ran rough shod over the Pastor and fellowship.

Eventually (over the next year) I took charge over the elders, confronted the sin in each one of them and had the membership vote them out of the church and a revival broke loose and the Church of Jesus Who brought me there fill the Fellowship with new converts.

 

[th1b.taylor]

That would be one tough row to hoe, Chopper.

 

[Runner]

Much of what you say is true, but that was not the question. What does Scripture say about unity and fellowship in the body.

Fair enough to shift the focus if you like since it's your thread, but the actual question you posed was:

How do you deal with the Diotrephes (preeminence) in the Church that destroys Fellowship and unity)?

Certainly the verse you posted from Ephesians and the one Chopper posted from 1 Corinthians express the Christian ideal - but as you acknowledge, it never quite works out that way. Human nature and James 4:1 pretty much explain why. The puzzle for me is, why does the Holy Spirit seem so ineffectual in helping accomplish the unity and fellowship all Christians say they desire? It is very difficult to distinguish the unity and fellowship among Christians from the unity and fellowship among Buddhists, atheists or Democrats. Christians are almost forced into (1) going their own way, as I have, or (2) seeking ever-narrower communities of like-minded believers in a mostly futile effort to eliminate disagreements and disharmony. Along with #(2) comes that mindset that the "others," those who don't think like "we" do, don't have the Holy Spirit at all (while the "others" think the same about "us"). It is indeed a puzzle.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hi Douglas. This is my favorite verse on unity in any fellowship....1Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Our Lord led me to a troubled church in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. I started my preaching in 1st Corinthians. When I preached verse 10, all hell broke loose because it challenged the elders who ran rough shod over the Pastor and fellowship.

Eventually (over the next year) I took charge over the elders, confronted the sin in each one of them and had the membership vote them out of the church and a revival broke loose and the Church of Jesus Who brought me there fill the Fellowship with new converts.

Great testimony Chopper. This to me is uniting the body within the will of God. It is not that you lorded it over the body, but by the word and Spirit of God that warns us of dissension in the body. ((Rom. 16:16-18) (Titus 3:10) (1 Tim. 6:3) (1 Tim. 6:3) (2 Thes. 3:6) (2 Thes. 3:14) Judgment starts in the Church (not condemnation of the soul), but the judgment of sin in the Church. (1 Cor. 5:12-13). Those who lack humility lack fellowship with the Father.

 

[Runner]

Those who lack humility lack fellowship with the Father.

But again, the problem is that it's ALWAYS "those who disagree with me" who "lack humility." It's never ME - I'm just spreading the Gospel, telling the Truth of Scripture, letting the chips fall where they may; if YOU see it differently, YOU "lack fellowship with the Father" or whatever. In reality, it's all of us who lack humility. We each stake out our understanding of what Scripture means, what Christianity is all about, how Spirit-filled we are - and then we defend it like we were defending the Alamo, cocksure that the problem is THEM and not US. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matt. 7:3-5, NASB. I'm not pointing fingers here, merely acknowledging reality.

 

[billybalke]

But again, the problem is that it's ALWAYS "those who disagree with me" who "lack humility." It's never ME - I'm just spreading the Gospel, telling the Truth of Scripture, letting the chips fall where they may; if YOU see it differently, YOU "lack fellowship with the Father" or whatever. In reality, it's all of us who lack humility. We each stake out our understanding of what Scripture means, what Christianity is all about, how Spirit-filled we are - and then we defend it like we were defending the Alamo, cocksure that the problem is THEM and not US. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matt. 7:3-5, NASB. I'm not pointing fingers here, merely acknowledging reality.

There can be NO fellowship apart from the Word of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Unity means the fact or state of being one in agreement or in harmony as one Lord, one faith and one baptism, Ephesians 4:5, as it is all Gods Spirit in agreement with each action his Spirit performs or commands of us as we are born again by His word and Spirit, John 3:5. It’s all Gods Spirit manifested in three different forms for the purpose of his ministry as God can take on many different forms for us to hear him speak to us and bring us into that unity that is one

The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22, 1Peter 1:2)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3; 14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4; 5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)

1Corinthians 1:9, 10 we know for a surety that God is trustworthy as we have fellowship with his son Jesus Christ and it is by grace measured out to each of us as a gift we can not earn as it is free to us through the love of God that makes us one in the unity of Gods Spirit. There should be no division among the brethren as we now have the mind of Christ through Gods Spirit that teaches us all things and brings us into all understanding, John 14:26.

 

[Runner]

There can be NO fellowship apart from the Word of God.

And since there is essentially no fellowship, what does THAT tell us?

Or explain to us where you find fellowship: Here? Some other forum? Your local church? Where?

I've been a member of, or regularly attended, several churches (all Southern Baptist). I attended a Southern Baptist seminary. "Fellowship and unity" are not two words that leap to mind. Two of the churches literally split down the seams and became four churches. Seminary, which was viewed as entirely too liberal by the Southern Baptist Convention, resembled the Russian Revolution.

The closest to fellowship and unity that I personally have experienced was in Campus Crusade - but we were all 20 years old, and even then there was considerable competitiveness, in-fighting and whatnot.

And what does "apart from the Word of God" mean? That's easy to say, but what does it mean? "Apart from the Word of God as billybalke understands it, and if you do not understand it precisely the same way then you are outside the Word of God?"

I hate to sound jaundiced, but to me the disconnect between (1) what the Bible says about fellowship and unity, (2) the Christian claim that the Holy Spirit uniquely indwells believers, and (3) the pretty obvious lack of unity and harmony among those who claim to be Christians, is a real conundrum. I don't think it is possible to wriggle out of that conundrum with platitudes.

My personal belief is that the lack of unity and fellowship exists primarily because of a near-obsession with "correct dogma" and a lack of focus on Christian living. So when I hear someone say "There can be NO fellowship apart from the Word of God," my reaction is: Uh-oh, here we go. I don't mean that in a disparaging way; I simply mean "This person is now going to explain to us why we are outside the Word of God and need to get in line with his thinking," which is not (IMO) the route to fellowship and unity.

 

[Douglas Summers]

But again, the problem is that it's ALWAYS "those who disagree with me" who "lack humility." It's never ME - I'm just spreading the Gospel, telling the Truth of Scripture, letting the chips fall where they may; if YOU see it differently, YOU "lack fellowship with the Father" or whatever. In reality, it's all of us who lack humility. We each stake out our understanding of what Scripture means, what Christianity is all about, how Spirit-filled we are - and then we defend it like we were defending the Alamo, cocksure that the problem is THEM and not US. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matt. 7:3-5, NASB. I'm not pointing fingers here, merely acknowledging reality.

Hi Runner, When the Lord called me, I was 16 years old (April 1st. 1963). Fools day to the world, but the beginning of a changed life for me. Through the time in the rest of the 60's, I backslid, falling in with most of the crowd. I was always aware of Christ, but I was angry with the world (Vietnam and our Government). When I got married and had children, I began to understand more of love and responsibility. I repented and began to fellowship with the Lord. I asked the Lord to show me the Truth, for what I read in the Scriptures, I did not see being lived by most members in the Church. So when I asked the Lord to show me the Truth, I lost everything I had. The employees that worked under my supervision (all Christians) plotted to get me fired, I lost everything, My job, filed for bankruptcy, lost my car. My wife worked for the Pastor (He was a Juvenal Judge). In the midst of all my financial trouble, he fires my wife? Everything I had was gone, till I had nothing to hold onto but Christ. That is when my walk with the Lord began. I went through terrible and lonely times. I have been humble before the Lord ever since. I have seen many miracles and personal teachings by the Lord. Even to this day, I weep at the senseless cruelty of men and their treatment of the earth. The Holy Spirit is continually with me, accusing, or excusing, confirming and chastising my walk and calling. I will be glad to leave this world as it is, but not until He has accomplished in me to fulfill His purpose of conforming me to the image of Christ (complete conformity) (Rom. 8:28-30)

 

[billybalke]

And since there is essentially no fellowship, what does THAT tell us?

Or explain to us where you find fellowship: Here? Some other forum? Your local church? Where?

I've been a member of, or regularly attended, several churches (all Southern Baptist). I attended a Southern Baptist seminary. "Fellowship and unity" are not two words that leap to mind. Two of the churches literally split down the seams and became four churches. Seminary, which was viewed as entirely too liberal by the Southern Baptist Convention, resembled the Russian Revolution.

The closest to fellowship and unity that I personally have experienced was in Campus Crusade - but we were all 20 years old, and even then there was considerable competitiveness, in-fighting and whatnot.

And what does "apart from the Word of God" mean? That's easy to say, but what does it mean? "Apart from the Word of God as billybalke understands it, and if you do not understand it precisely the same way then you are outside the Word of God?"

I hate to sound jaundiced, but to me the disconnect between (1) what the Bible says about fellowship and unity, (2) the Christian claim that the Holy Spirit uniquely indwells believers, and (3) the pretty obvious lack of unity and harmony among those who claim to be Christians, is a real conundrum. I don't think it is possible to wriggle out of that conundrum with platitudes.

My personal belief is that the lack of unity and fellowship exists primarily because of a near-obsession with "correct dogma" and a lack of focus on Christian living. So when I hear someone say "There can be NO fellowship apart from the Word of God," my reaction is: Uh-oh, here we go. I don't mean that in a disparaging way; I simply mean "This person is now going to explain to us why we are outside the Word of God and need to get in line with his thinking," which is not (IMO) the route to fellowship and unity.

What saith the scripture, Rom.4:3. Ephesians 4:1-6.
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OF JEW
God bless, Billy

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Runner, When the Lord called me, I was 16 years old (April 1st. 1963). Fools day to the world, but the beginning of a changed life for me. Through the time in the rest of the 60's, I backslid, falling in with most of the crowd. I was always aware of Christ, but I was angry with the world (Vietnam and our Government). When I got married and had children, I began to understand more of love and responsibility. I repented and began to fellowship with the Lord. I asked the Lord to show me the Truth, for what I read in the Scriptures, I did not see being lived by most members in the Church. So when I asked the Lord to show me the Truth, I lost everything I had. The employees that worked under my supervision (all Christians) plotted to get me fired, I lost everything, My job, filed for bankruptcy, lost my car. My wife worked for the Pastor (He was a Juvenal Judge). In the midst of all my financial trouble, he fires my wife? Everything I had was gone, till I had nothing to hold onto but Christ. That is when my walk with the Lord began. I went through terrible and lonely times. I have been humble before the Lord ever since. I have seen many miracles and personal teachings by the Lord. Even to this day, I weep at the senseless cruelty of men and their treatment of the earth. The Holy Spirit is continually with me, accusing, or excusing, confirming and chastising my walk and calling. I will be glad to leave this world as it is, but not until He has accomplished in me to fulfill His purpose of conforming me to the image of Christ (complete conformity) (Rom. 8:28-30)

I pray the Father blesses you twice as much as He has me and that you seat is at the foot of the throne. I must have become the dottering old fool that some of my men called me in Vietnam when we were away on our Graduation Trip around the world 'cause that brought tears to my eyes, just remembering those days.

You were on one side and I was the guy you all hated my guts. screamed at and everything was OKEY until the Hippie that looked as if he must have had had a bath, at least once in the past five years before he decided to curse me out and to spit in my face. I'm almost certain he never spit on another man that was less than 48 hours off of yhe Killing Fields.

That was any years ago and the Ladies were sweet and they cried as we went off to guarantee the Little People of the South Vietnam Jungles a shot at Freedom that LBJ never intended for them to have. It taught me two things that have enriched life without measure though:

1. Never trust a Politician because when their lips are moving... They are lying!
2. Never ignore God when He calls you to do something.

May God bless you and yours as He has me and mine.

 

[Douglas Summers]

You were on one side and I was the guy you all hated my guts. screamed at and everything was OKEY until the Hippie that looked as if he must have had had a bath, at least once in the past five years before he decided to curse me out and to spit in my face. I'm almost certain he never spit on another man that was less than 48 hours off of yhe Killing Fields.

I never disrespected our military, I was in Air Force ROTC during that time and could not hardly wear my uniform without controversy from students and profs. (I got married and quit college) I tried to join as soon as I graduated, (1965) but did not pass the physical at that time. I come from a long line of WW II vets. My anger was the Government and their lying to the people about Vietnam and wasting my friends (a teenage waste land), especially Nixon and General Westmoreland. I was never a hippie' But I'am glad to see the Viet Cong and American vets have met in Vietnam and both grieved with each other. It was strange to see that they both thought the war was unnecessary and bonded together. The problem now is, all the Hippies are now running the Government (mostly in the Obama Admin.) Let the Lord Heal those wounds that seem to fester.

Christ in us
Douglas Summers

 

[Chopper]

And since there is essentially no fellowship, what does THAT tell us?

Or explain to us where you find fellowship: Here? Some other forum? Your local church? Where?

I've been a member of, or regularly attended, several churches (all Southern Baptist). I attended a Southern Baptist seminary. "Fellowship and unity" are not two words that leap to mind. Two of the churches literally split down the seams and became four churches. Seminary, which was viewed as entirely too liberal by the Southern Baptist Convention, resembled the Russian Revolution.

The closest to fellowship and unity that I personally have experienced was in Campus Crusade - but we were all 20 years old, and even then there was considerable competitiveness, in-fighting and whatnot.

And what does "apart from the Word of God" mean? That's easy to say, but what does it mean? "Apart from the Word of God as billybalke understands it, and if you do not understand it precisely the same way then you are outside the Word of God?"

I hate to sound jaundiced, but to me the disconnect between (1) what the Bible says about fellowship and unity, (2) the Christian claim that the Holy Spirit uniquely indwells believers, and (3) the pretty obvious lack of unity and harmony among those who claim to be Christians, is a real conundrum. I don't think it is possible to wriggle out of that conundrum with platitudes.

My personal belief is that the lack of unity and fellowship exists primarily because of a near-obsession with "correct dogma" and a lack of focus on Christian living. So when I hear someone say "There can be NO fellowship apart from the Word of God," my reaction is: Uh-oh, here we go. I don't mean that in a disparaging way; I simply mean "This person is now going to explain to us why we are outside the Word of God and need to get in line with his thinking," which is not (IMO) the route to fellowship and unity.

Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Choppers note: Have our churches ever come to the unity of the faith? NO!! Unto a perfect man? NO!! Unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ? NO, NO, and I repeat, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!

Without Apostles & prophets, the church of Jesus Christ suffers even today.
4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

There are so many area's of "dispensationalism" That I find anti-biblical. Scolfield was a champion for that cause. There are a few areas, in the Old Covenant that I see as useful but not in the New Covenant, especially in verses 11-16. Men of the flesh, have chopped out these crucial instructions of our Lord Jesus thru the Apostle Paul.

By chopping out Apostles & Prophets from the local churches, they are reduced to the authority of each pastor of each church who are allowed to preach/teach error without any rebukes by those two offices. Real true fellowship & unity? Can't happen without Apostles & Prophets.

 

[reba]

We Americans have such a strong idea of freedom personal rights we tend to forget God's structure..

 

[Runner]

Hi Runner, When the Lord called me, I was 16 years old (April 1st. 1963). Fools day to the world, but the beginning of a changed life for me. Through the time in the rest of the 60's, I backslid, falling in with most of the crowd. I was always aware of Christ, but I was angry with the world (Vietnam and our Government). When I got married and had children, I began to understand more of love and responsibility. I repented and began to fellowship with the Lord. I asked the Lord to show me the Truth, for what I read in the Scriptures, I did not see being lived by most members in the Church. So when I asked the Lord to show me the Truth, I lost everything I had. The employees that worked under my supervision (all Christians) plotted to get me fired, I lost everything, My job, filed for bankruptcy, lost my car. My wife worked for the Pastor (He was a Juvenal Judge). In the midst of all my financial trouble, he fires my wife? Everything I had was gone, till I had nothing to hold onto but Christ. That is when my walk with the Lord began. I went through terrible and lonely times. I have been humble before the Lord ever since. I have seen many miracles and personal teachings by the Lord. Even to this day, I weep at the senseless cruelty of men and their treatment of the earth. The Holy Spirit is continually with me, accusing, or excusing, confirming and chastising my walk and calling. I will be glad to leave this world as it is, but not until He has accomplished in me to fulfill His purpose of conforming me to the image of Christ (complete conformity) (Rom. 8:28-30)

My path likewise has been up, down, here, there and everywhere. I'm actually very thankful that I didn't walk a straight-line path from a childhood in a "good Christian home" to a "good Christian" youth, a "good Christian" adulthood, and a "good Christian" old age. I definitely didn't walk such a path, and I don't think God intended such a path for me or He would have given me a far different start than He did (two alcoholic parents who died of cirrhosis before I was 20).

In my long and winding journey from that hellish start, I've seen God at work in my life in complex and seemingly miraculous ways - things falling into place in absolutely inexplicable ways, again and again, to rescue and protect me at critical junctures when I could so easily have self-destructed. I'm talking about events so complex and unlikely that the only reasonable explanation is "Divine intervention." On some occasions, God used my abilities to accomplish an important purpose (including, on one occasion, the exposure of a completely fraudulent "Christian" ministry) but in a way that left me on the edge of ruin - then repaid my efforts by rescuing me so fast and so completely that it was breath-taking.

Because of what I have directly experienced, NO ONE - not in any church, not on any forum, NO ONE ANYWHERE - is going to tell me that I am not in Jesus' hands and don't have the Holy Spirit in my life. Those who don't approve of my particular understanding of Christianity simply mean NOTHING to me because I KNOW Who does approve. I hope you feel the same way about your own walk with God, and it sounds as though you do.

For purposes of this thread, my point is that I have not found any church, forum or other place that struck me as exemplifying Christian fellowship and unity or that I felt contributed to my own Christian growth and walk with God as much as solitude. I have often contemplated going into full Urban Hermit mode for this very reason. These particular forums are certainly not the worst by any means, but could anyone really call them places of fellowship and unity? You seem to have posted several times in the vein that you are dismayed by the lack of fellowship and unity. And so I think one does have to ask, why is this? Where's the beef - where's the Holy Spirit we all think we have? Christianity in all these places seems to be largely a grim, humorless, dogma-driven, debate-fest - surely 180 degrees from what Jesus had in mind. I truly don't have an answer - other than perhaps Urban Hermit mode for myself, which sounds better every time I think about it.

 

[Douglas Summers]

My path likewise has been up, down, here, there and everywhere. I'm actually very thankful that I didn't walk a straight-line path from a childhood in a "good Christian home" to a "good Christian" youth, a "good Christian" adulthood, and a "good Christian" old age. I definitely didn't walk such a path, and I don't think God intended such a path for me or He would have given me a far different start than He did (two alcoholic parents who died of cirrhosis before I was 20).

In my long and winding journey from that hellish start, I've seen God at work in my life in complex and seemingly miraculous ways - things falling into place in absolutely inexplicable ways, again and again, to rescue and protect me at critical junctures when I could so easily have self-destructed. I'm talking about events so complex and unlikely that the only reasonable explanation is "Divine intervention." On some occasions, God used my abilities to accomplish an important purpose (including, on one occasion, the exposure of a completely fraudulent "Christian" ministry) but in a way that left me on the edge of ruin - then repaid my efforts by rescuing me so fast and so completely that it was breath-taking.

Because of what I have directly experienced, NO ONE - not in any church, not on any forum, NO ONE ANYWHERE - is going to tell me that I am not in Jesus' hands and don't have the Holy Spirit in my life. Those who don't approve of my particular understanding of Christianity simply mean NOTHING to me because I KNOW Who does approve. I hope you feel the same way about your own walk with God, and it sounds as though you do.

For purposes of this thread, my point is that I have not found any church, forum or other place that struck me as exemplifying Christian fellowship and unity or that I felt contributed to my own Christian growth and walk with God as much as solitude. I have often contemplated going into full Urban Hermit mode for this very reason. These particular forums are certainly not the worst by any means, but could anyone really call them places of fellowship and unity? You seem to have posted several times in the vein that you are dismayed by the lack of fellowship and unity. And so I think one does have to ask, why is this? Where's the beef - where's the Holy Spirit we all think we have? Christianity in all these places seems to be largely a grim, humorless, dogma-driven, debate-fest - surely 180 degrees from what Jesus had in mind. I truly don't have an answer - other than perhaps Urban Hermit mode for myself, which sounds better every time I think about it.

I can relate. My dad died when I was 8 months old, my mom was blind and an alcoholic as most of my family. Out of 3 brothers and 4 sisters I was the only one to graduate. I was homeless for awhile. shunned by my siblings. Like you, I feel like God used what I went through to cause me to be a better servant and able to relate to the trials of others in the Spirit of Christ. I have thought about just keeping to my self, but the Spirit wants to witness. Sometimes in ministering by post, people think you are berating them when you did not have that intention at all. It is better to minister in person. If I can be of any help in your warfare for the Lord, let me know. Prayer is powerful in the company of believers.

Christ in us
Douglas Summers