Feminism & Christianity

[theLords]

totopic

Further posts will be deleted. Thank you.

 

[jasoncran]

Sure that just adds to my point, the bible gives numerous examples of not giving people the idea that they are saved and to (see the end of the chapter)
“Expel the wicked person from among you"

so they will hopefully realize they are wrong and come back to the church.... can you really read the whole chapter of 1 cor 5 and think that the indivdual is going to heaven??? or are you saying that if we hand people over to satan (by kicking them out of the church) that they are actually going to heaven??

<SUP id=en-NIV-28456 class=versenum>1</SUP> It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. <SUP id=en-NIV-28457 class=versenum>2</SUP> And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

why would you go into mourning about someone getting "saved"..... Let anyone read this that is not a christian or knows nothing about the bible and they will come to the same conclusion..... you would have to have a "bias" to think that 1 cor. 5 is saying that individual is "being saved" by banging his father's wife... i mean if that is true we need to tell people to do what they want...

they did that so that he would repent, to change behavior. i have ceased all teaching of the bible at once when i realised i couldnt repent of a sin. BUT my salvation wasnt lost. i choose not to insult my lord as i couldnt overcome a sin.

if you want to debate this furthur i suggest another thread as we need to stay on topic.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

they did that so that he would repent, to change behavior. i have ceased all teaching of the bible at once when i realised i couldnt repent of a sin. BUT my salvation wasnt lost. i choose not to insult my lord as i couldnt overcome a sin.

if you want to debate this furthur i suggest another thread as we need to stay on topic.

i agree, i think we are on the same page.... i was just debating the once saved/always saved or it is impossible to lose salvation... trust me i have to repent ALL THE TIME

as far as the topic goes no one has replied to my orignal post

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Some people don't take the context seriously enough. How dare you take the words of God offered in truth and dash them! Either one is saved or one isn't. There is no escape clause, apart from insincerity, which you are focusing on. I would rather focus on an all-out forever relationship that is built on the promises of God which are genuine and can be counted on.

God's arm is not too short to save completely. Sorry many of you think it is.

These are one of those situations where reality is traded for blind faith. For instance, when what actually happens does not line up with what the Bible says happens, you invoke notions that I was simply deceived or tricked away from the truth, by some evil beings, or by my own sinful nature. Your results are unfalsifiable. It's like Freudianism in psychology. When other scientists prove something wrong that Freudianism claims, all the Freudian has to say is that the scientists' insecurity is creating a need for him/her to view the data in a certain manner to prove Freudianism wrong. You can't win.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

you are taking that verse wayyyyy out of context, God does not force salvation on anyone permanently, the bible is very clear that anyone can leave at any point.... also don't you think that if you are going to have a positive influence on an atheist that is obviously open to discussion that there might be a better way than the approach you are taking...
gendou, sorry about the lack of love being shown to you..... to get back to the topic what are you thoughts about my post?

It's okay. I grew up Christian and talk with Christians regularly. No worries, mate. Anyway, as to your solution, I think it is more level-headed than most, but I am still not sure why a woman should want to submit herself to her husband. In my experience, dealing with an entire community of Christian families, the marry is best when the marriage is equal. That means both are partners... no one submitting to the other, or both submitting to each other.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

It's okay. I grew up Christian and talk with Christians regularly. No worries, mate. Anyway, as to your solution, I think it is more level-headed than most, but I am still not sure why a woman should want to submit herself to her husband. In my experience, dealing with an entire community of Christian families, the marry is best when the marriage is equal. That means both are partners... no one submitting to the other, or both submitting to each other.

I think the word submitting gets taken out of context a little... for example no one has problems submitting to everything else in life. I submit to the govt, i submit to job (i just don't decide to do whatever i want). If you look at non christian studies it will show that you cannot have 2 ceos of a company and things be successful... trust me my wife has more input in my marriage then i do in my job or i do with the govt. the key is when i make a decision i will do what is (in love) best for my wife.... so no one would argue companies, govt, schools, etc... that everyone will be in charge, that would be chaos... trust me when i say my wife is probably more "feminist" than you and we have a WONDERFUL marriage... the concept is correct, the implementation is usually wrong...

 

[Ashua]

Feminists, such as myself, have a profound problem with it, precisely because it creates an irrationally division between males and females. St. Paul created a hierarchy: Females --> Males --> God. Anybody who thinks this does not mean St. Paul considered females to be below the stature of males, hasn't been reading their Bible. Even in the Torah, monetary value is assigned to boys and girls, with girls being worth less than boys. Feminists believe that there are more similarities between men and women than we care to admit, especially when you throw the brain chemistry of non-heterosexuals into the mix.

Another problem we have with sexism, is that it is an arbitrary and absolute division. For example, women have historically been forbidden from serving in the military, because on average females are less able to perform in combat than are men. Yet, this distinction is foolish. There are plenty of women who can and do serve in the military with far superior ability than I (as a male) could ever. Just because the majority of women are not fit for military service, does not mean some of them aren't. Likewise, we could make an arbitrary distinction to place a height requirement on military service or for who gets to lead a marriage. Nobody under 5'8'' will be able to serve in the military. Everybody who has watched Rudy knows how foolish this is.

You say that "St." Paul invented this distinction between man and women. (I disagree but there is no common ground to bother advancing the case)

So Paul says one thing and who is to say he is wrong? Another person? You? Leverage where?

And, not that it really has anything to do with anything, and IDK if you prefer not to answer, but if I am not mistaken your name is Jon? Are you biologically male or female? Again, if you want to remain ambiguous, that's your prerogative.

 

[Alabaster]

It's okay. I grew up Christian and talk with Christians regularly. No worries, mate. Anyway, as to your solution, I think it is more level-headed than most, but I am still not sure why a woman should want to submit herself to her husband. In my experience, dealing with an entire community of Christian families, the marry is best when the marriage is equal. That means both are partners... no one submitting to the other, or both submitting to each other.

Next Sunday we will celebrate our 35th anniversary. When we were wed, Jesus stood with us as the third person in the marriage. My husband and I submit to one another in love and both to Christ, as equal partners under Him. This is how it was in Eden, and that is how Jesus Christ restores the marriage relationship to that state when He is partner as well.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I think the word submitting gets taken out of context a little... for example no one has problems submitting to everything else in life. I submit to the govt, i submit to job (i just don't decide to do whatever i want). If you look at non christian studies it will show that you cannot have 2 ceos of a company and things be successful... trust me my wife has more input in my marriage then i do in my job or i do with the govt. the key is when i make a decision i will do what is (in love) best for my wife.... so no one would argue companies, govt, schools, etc... that everyone will be in charge, that would be chaos... trust me when i say my wife is probably more "feminist" than you and we have a WONDERFUL marriage... the concept is correct, the implementation is usually wrong...

The question then becomes: why should the wife submit to the husband, and not the husband submit to the wife?

You say that "St." Paul invented this distinction between man and women. (I disagree but there is no common ground to bother advancing the case)

So Paul says one thing and who is to say he is wrong? Another person? You? Leverage where?

And, not that it really has anything to do with anything, and IDK if you prefer not to answer, but if I am not mistaken your name is Jon? Are you biologically male or female? Again, if you want to remain ambiguous, that's your prerogative.

It's John with an "h" and I am male. :p

Next Sunday we will celebrate our 35th anniversary. When we were wed, Jesus stood with us as the third person in the marriage. My husband and I submit to one another in love and both to Christ, as equal partners under Him. This is how it was in Eden, and that is how Jesus Christ restores the marriage relationship to that state when He is partner as well.

That's great. I am so glad you think that way. :D

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

The question then becomes: why should the wife submit to the husband, and not the husband submit to the wife?

fair enough.... but then logically your argument becomes invalid, because the argument is that the bible is "sexist" so the bible would still be sexist just the other way around... for the argument to continue you would need to show examples of successful sports teams with 2 head coaches, businesses with 2 ceos, etc... i read alot of business management books and ALL of them stress so type of submission (although they may not use that word)....

 

[Gendou Ikari]

fair enough.... but then logically your argument becomes invalid, because the argument is that the bible is "sexist" so the bible would still be sexist just the other way around... for the argument to continue you would need to show examples of successful sports teams with 2 head coaches, businesses with 2 ceos, etc... i read alot of business management books and ALL of them stress so type of submission (although they may not use that word)....

Well, the way that you solve the dilemma is to have the person (man or woman) most capable lead the marriage. And, I'd say the best example of equality is democracy. Ironically, the same arguments you have been making are the same arguments St. Aquinas and Dante Alighieri used to support a monarchy.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

Well, the way that you solve the dilemma is to have the person (man or woman) most capable lead the marriage. And, I'd say the best example of equality is democracy. Ironically, the same arguments you have been making are the same arguments St. Aquinas and Dante Alighieri used to support a monarchy.

how do you determine that??? if given the choice both people are going to say they are capable... democracy is not an example, every year all candaites feel like they are most capable but then we vote (we live in a republic, not a democracy, which is one of the basic misunderstandings about america.. but that is another topic) and we DECIDE who is best, if we just said whoever FEELS like they are most capable then you can lead the country, then we would have mass chaos.... no where in life is that successful, you can't walk into a company with an opening at CEO and say whoever is most capable please lead the company you will have 100 people say they are!!!

 

[Gendou Ikari]

how do you determine that??? if given the choice both people are going to say they are capable... democracy is not an example, every year all candaites feel like they are most capable but then we vote (we live in a republic, not a democracy, which is one of the basic misunderstandings about america.. but that is another topic) and we DECIDE who is best, if we just said whoever FEELS like they are most capable then you can lead the country, then we would have mass chaos.... no where in life is that successful, you can't walk into a company with an opening at CEO and say whoever is most capable please lead the company you will have 100 people say they are!!!

You could have a system of economic democracy where the workers have a stake in corporate governance. As an autodidact of political economy, corporate governance is notoriously corrupt and inefficient. Yet, we're straying too far off topic. You still haven't answered the question. Why should the woman be subject to the man (i.e. who is loving and works in the best interests of his wife and kids) in a marriage? What special qualities does a male have that a female does not? Or is consistency simply needed and God flipped a coin in time immemorial to decide?

 

[Ashua]

The question then becomes: why should the wife submit to the husband, and not the husband submit to the wife?



It's John with an "h" and I am male. :p



That's great. I am so glad you think that way. :D

Lol.. I wasn't sure but fore some reason "Jon" was sticking out over "John" in my head. Must have had Gruden on the mind or something...

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

You could have a system of economic democracy where the workers have a stake in corporate governance. As an autodidact of political economy, corporate governance is notoriously corrupt and inefficient. Yet, we're straying too far off topic. You still haven't answered the question. Why should the woman be subject to the man (i.e. who is loving and works in the best interests of his wife and kids) in a marriage? What special qualities does a male have that a female does not? Or is consistency simply needed and God flipped a coin in time immemorial to decide?

I don't know how much research or studies you have done on the difference between males and females, but (mostly, not always) women are more emotional and right brain driven and men are more logical and left brain driven. which is what makes a marriage great, my wife has helped me see a perspective on the emotional side of things i would never be able to see on my own. But back to the question when decision ultimately need to get made a logical non emotional one is probably going to be preferable in most situations...... for the record alot of this is just speculation on my part and my opinion.....

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I don't know how much research or studies you have done on the difference between males and females, but (mostly, not always) women are more emotional and right brain driven and men are more logical and left brain driven. which is what makes a marriage great, my wife has helped me see a perspective on the emotional side of things i would never be able to see on my own. But back to the question when decision ultimately need to get made a logical non emotional one is probably going to be preferable in most situations...... for the record alot of this is just speculation on my part and my opinion.....

The problem I see with this is that all morality ultimately comes from emotions. The only reason it is logical to protect your children, is because you have strong emotions towards them. It is the difference between Spock and Kirk. I always sided with Kirk, so I cannot agree with you on this one. Additionally, much of our conception of masculinity is a cultural/sociological phenomenon. For instance, in Ancient Greece it was considered manly to express emotion through crying (this is featured prominently in the Odyssey).

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

The problem I see with this is that all morality ultimately comes from emotions. The only reason it is logical to protect your children, is because you have strong emotions towards them. It is the difference between Spock and Kirk. I always sided with Kirk, so I cannot agree with you on this one. Additionally, much of our conception of masculinity is a cultural/sociological phenomenon. For instance, in Ancient Greece it was considered manly to express emotion through crying (this is featured prominently in the Odyssey).

haha,funny i always side with spock... i would argue the point on morality and emotions, but alas this topic has had it share of tangets.... i will agree that some of our masculinity comes from emotion, but if you have done biological research you would have to agree that society has no say in the biological differences that occur in the womb... in fact men are actually brain damaged because in the womb (i am paraphasing here) men actually have parts of their right brain damaged to where it doesn't work the same as women..

 

[Gendou Ikari]

haha,funny i always side with spock... i would argue the point on morality and emotions, but alas this topic has had it share of tangets.... i will agree that some of our masculinity comes from emotion, but if you have done biological research you would have to agree that society has no say in the biological differences that occur in the womb... in fact men are actually brain damaged because in the womb (i am paraphasing here) men actually have parts of their right brain damaged to where it doesn't work the same as women..

If you know of any good literature on the biological differences between men and women, I would be more than willing to read them. My feminist studies focuses more on the sociological aspects, but it is good for me to be well rounded on the subject.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

If you know of any good literature on the biological differences between men and women, I would be more than willing to read them. My feminist studies focuses more on the sociological aspects, but it is good for me to be well rounded on the subject.

give me a day and i will pm them to you... you remind me sooooooooo much of my wife..
she was pretty much an athesit when i met her in college (used to be catholic but gave up on God because of the issues with catholics and being told not to think and just had religion rammed down her throat...)
she got her degree in anthopology (mostly feminist studies and society)

 

[Gendou Ikari]

give me a day and i will pm them to you... you remind me sooooooooo much of my wife..
she was pretty much an athesit when i met her in college (used to be catholic but gave up on God because of the issues with catholics and being told not to think and just had religion rammed down her throat...)
she got her degree in anthopology (mostly feminist studies and society)

Awe, comparing me to any cool feminist girl is a super compliment. :adore