Feminism

[dancing queen]

Do people really think the Bible ranks men above women?

This came up in another thread and i didnt agree. Said about killing women who had cheated on husbands but Jesus stopped that, said about women being quiet in church but they had women ministers, i just dont see where you get it from

 

[lovely]

Hi dancing queen,

I can only respond briefly...on my way out to a visit. I did not intent to upset you, but I offered you only what the Word says in response...feminism is not based on God's Word, but is worldly.

Does position dictate value to God? I do not believe that God values one believer over another...in fact, the Word says He doesn't. I do think that I am valuable to God in my role, and calling, though. He designed me to be a woman, so I do not need to desire to be a man, or covet his role.

If satan's goal is to reverse the positions of man and women, to thwart the plan of God as He uses them for His work, then why embrace a wordly teaching (religion?) that promotes that goal by the name of feminism?

God created me as a woman, not less, but different. My role happens to involve submission to my husband. What is wrong with being feminine, or submissive? God designed me that way. I am a helper to my husband, and have an important ministry as a wife. I also have a call to be a mother, and my body is even designed for having children.

I will repost the verses I used in another thread.

1 Peter 3
1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Again, it is not my motive to cause offense, but I can not deny what the Scripture teaches on the matter to make others comfortable, or to feel good about themselves. We are called to be servants. The Lord bless you.

 

[Quath]

Said about killing women who had cheated on husbands but Jesus stopped that,

Do you agree that the Old Testament was sexist then?

said about women being quiet in church but they had women ministers, i just dont see where you get it from

It comes from 1 Timothy 2:12 - I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

 

[Preacher Boy]

http://www.inthestreets.org/Preachin/Silent%20Women.mp3

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Do you agree that the Old Testament was sexist then?

Of course the Old Testament was sexist. If my memory isn't failing me, if a women was raped she had to marry the guy. God makes great laws doesn't he? :roll:

 

[Featherbop]

The OT does view men as superior to women. Not just the Bible, mind you, that idea has long been prominent-and still is.

It is merely a reflection of the culture and time in which it was written.

The problem comes if one believes that the Bible contains God's opinions on the matter, and that person also believes in male and female equality(and similar ideas).

 

[stovebolts]

Of course the Old Testament was sexist. If my memory isn't failing me, if a women was raped she had to marry the guy. God makes great laws doesn't he? :roll:

Your close, but not quite right...
In reference to what your speaking, if a woman is raped in the city and she does not yell, then she is stoned. If she yells, the man has to pay the fine of the dowry.
If a woman is raped in the country, then the man must marry her and cannot divorce her. The reasoning was that if she did yell, nobody would be there to hear her where as in the city, if she yelled, then sombody could have came and rescued her.
You should read Deut one day, it's actually a pretty good book.

But more to the culture of the day, why would the guy have to marry her? What would have happened to her if he didn't have to marry her? Maybe there is more to this law than meets the eye huh?

 

[Quath]

You got some of it. If the woman is raped in the city; if she is engaged or married; and if she does not yell, then she is killed. The whole idea is that an engaged or married woman is owned by another man. If a man ruins her, then the man must pay. If the woman did not resist being ruined, then she is killed. If she is in the country, she is given the benefit of the doubt that she tried to resist. If she was a virgin that was not engaged or married, she married her rapist.

It is pretty simple to see why there were these laws. Men wanted to be able to know their lineage. Every child had a known mother. So to have a known father, you had to make sure that a woman would only breed with one male. Men were allowed multiple wives because you knew who the father of each child would be.

So what could have been different? Just as God said that non-virgin brides should be killed in front of their parents, he could have set up other social rules. One good one would be if he had said something like "Care for the woman raped. I will bless those that love and care for these women and I will curse the man that did rape."

So what is the most reasonable explanation for these rules? Men wanted to control women and so they claim that God came up with these rules.

 

[dancing queen]

i get why the rape rules may have applied at the time, what i do not get is why people think the bible is still against feminism today? any verses?

 

[stovebolts]

You got some of it. If the woman is raped in the city; if she is engaged or married; and if she does not yell, then she is killed. The whole idea is that an engaged or married woman is owned by another man. If a man ruins her, then the man must pay. If the woman did not resist being ruined, then she is killed. If she is in the country, she is given the benefit of the doubt that she tried to resist. If she was a virgin that was not engaged or married, she married her rapist.

It is pretty simple to see why there were these laws. Men wanted to be able to know their lineage. Every child had a known mother. So to have a known father, you had to make sure that a woman would only breed with one male. Men were allowed multiple wives because you knew who the father of each child would be.

That sounds about right!

 

[Quath]

i get why the rape rules may have applied at the time, what i do not get is why people think the bible is still against feminism today? any verses?

I think it is because Christians still hold the Old Testament as valid. In other words, God decided that women should be killed for pre-maritial sex and not men. God decided to meet with men and not with women. So God character is a sexist one in the Old Testament. So by extension, Christians worship a sexist deity.

The only way out of this is if God changed his views; parts of the Old Testament were wrong; or sexist rules are somehow not sexist. Most Christians usually try to prove the latter (without success IMHO).

 

[Gendou Ikari]

That sounds about right!

Are you agreeing this is humane and reasonable?

Am I and Quath the only ones who are utterly sickened by what is being taught in the Old Testament? These laws treat women like dirt, something to be pushed around. If the girl doesn't cry out, perhaps because she has a knife to her throat, and she is in the city, she is killed. If she is a virgin, she must marry the ******* who raped her. It makes me sick just thinking about these laws, and to think they were created by an Omnipotent All-Loving God.

 

[lovely]

More of God's Word, and sound doctrine, on the topic....

Titus 2

1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

This opposes feminism too, just like the 1 Peter 3: 1-7 that was offered earlier in this thread.

Women are to be obedient to their own husbands, and keepers at home this is sound doctrine, and it is so that the Word of God is not blasphemed.

Perhaps I have been placed on ignore. (?) I don't know...maybe someone else could post the verses since she requested Biblical support. The Lord bless all of you today.

 

[lovely]

A few more verses...

Marriage is a picture of Christ and His bride, the church. We are living pictures of God's Love, and plan, as families who function in God's designed roles.

Ephesians 5:22-24,33
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Children are required to obey for the sake of the family, and their own training. Women are required to submit for the sake of the picture of Christ in marriage, and for the sake of the family functioning well. I am not speaking to the men about their role, but God has requirement for them as well that do place more accountablity on them.

Colossians 3:18-20

18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Even Christ is submissive to the Father, and the plan of God, for the sake of His church. We are not more than our Master, who is our most beautiful example of submission.

1 Corinthians 11:3

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Quath]

Women are to be obedient to their own husbands, and keepers at home this is sound doctrine, and it is so that the Word of God is not blasphemed.

So men who wrote the Bible says that the Bible should not be questioned about the dominance of men over women? I see a conflict of interest there.

Marriage is a picture of Christ and His bride, the church. We are living pictures of God's Love, and plan, as families who function in God's designed roles.

1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

This seems to show a level where men are directly under Jesus and women are under men. So women are one more step removed from Jesus than men are.

 

[lovely]

Quath,

So men who wrote the Bible says that the Bible should not be questioned about the dominance of men over women? I see a conflict of interest there.

Your atheism is showing, Quath. This is how you should see things because you are an unbeliever. But, those who believe God, and His Word, know that God wrote it...not men...so, no conflict there. It must be God's design.

1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

This seems to show a level where men are directly under Jesus and women are under men. So women are one more step removed from Jesus than men are.

Actually, I agree it does in role (calling) before God, but not in value as far as God's love, and sacrifice for His children. And, we know that in Heaven, none are given in marriage at all. The fact that we are not less, or more, in value to God is Scriptural because we know that we are all equal male, female, Jew, and Gentile. Men are responsible for the care, protection, and leadership in every area of their homes, and more accountable for their leadership because this is their area of obedience. A wife, is also responsible for her area of obedience, and it is not headship, but submission, and help meet. We all must become servants in order to do this. The husband and wife are unified in one purpose through a covenant as Christ is with the church. One flesh, and yet headship, and submission clearly exampled in that relationship. As I said, even Christ was willingly submissive for the sake of His love of the Father, and of the church, and so why is it not my highest calling to be like Him in my role as wife? It is a beautiful picture of our Lord, and it works perfectly for families in a very natural way. It is considered blaspheme of the Word because when we fail to be obedient in our roles, then we distort the picture of Christ His relationship to His church.

You think exactly how you should think being an atheist, as I said. And not counting God's Word as true is the nature of unbelief. But, shouldn't those who walk after Him be denying themselves, and following the Word they believe is true?

Feminism contradicts the Word of God, and believers should reject it, and other such contradictory teachings. The Lord bless you, Quath.

 

[Quath]

Your atheism is showing, Quath. This is how you should see things because you are an unbeliever. But, those who believe God, and His Word, know that God wrote it...not men...so, no conflict there. It must be God's design.

I know. I have a very different perspective. I guess it surprises me how little skepticism there is. I think we all can look at history and agree that people write down stuff that God does and wants and this stuff is a lie. (One big example is Islam.) Yet for some reason, the Bible is not thought of in this manner as another possible candidate.

It just seems that people would really wonder if extra things were thrown in the Bible that were not really meant to be there. For example, would God make more sense to you if he never ordered people to go kill children?

You think exactly how you should think being an atheist, as I said. And not counting God's Word as true is the nature of unbelief. But, shouldn't those who walk after Him be denying themselves, and following the Word they believe is true?

Feminism contradicts the Word of God, and believers should reject it, and other such contradictory teachings. The Lord bless you, Quath.

Yeah, in a sense, I am agreeing with you. I guess I just feel bad for women. I hate the stuff that religion have thrust upon women. I feel bad for how they have been used by religion. (Not just Christianity, which is mild by many standards.)

It is like the women in the Mormon cults. They sometimes get married off at 15 to an old man with several wives and they are taught never to question their Bible and their beliefs. I wish they would question it.

But who knows? Maybe they are happy with their lives?

 

[lovely]

Hi Quath,

Quath wrote:

I know. I have a very different perspective. I guess it surprises me how little skepticism there is. I think we all can look at history and agree that people write down stuff that God does and wants and this stuff is a lie. (One big example is Islam.) Yet for some reason, the Bible is not thought of in this manner as another possible candidate.

It just seems that people would really wonder if extra things were thrown in the Bible that were not really meant to be there. For example, would God make more sense to you if he never ordered people to go kill children?

I think that most believers were at one time skeptics too. The thing is, is there an absolute Truth, and can we recognize when we see it? People write down a lot of stuff about God that is not true, I agree. I think the Bible is very unique in the way it was written, and in the way it has been preserved...and that it has been shown accurate on many levels, historical, scientific, in the area of wisdom, insightfulness about God, and man, a Plan of redemption that is consistent in every book, and every story within the books. It really is amazing.

But, it is also a living book to a believer who has the direction of the Holy Spirit. This I can not convey to you except in a very plain sentence that may not reach any depth in you at all. I read a devotion on this the day before yesterday, and it resonated with me as believer because it is a truth that I know by living it. Oswald Chambers wrote: "All God's revelations are sealed until they are opened to us by obedience. You will never get them open by philosophy or thinking." God has shown His love in my heart, and I know it there...my obedience is a key that opens those revelations to me internally more and more. They are hidden from the world, and were once hidden from me, and those that have yet to unfold still are. How can I relate that Truth to others? The best I can do is live it, and continue in a path of obedience because my desire is to know them, and know God. I don't have to make sense of God, I am in a relationship with Him, and getting to know Him.

Quath wrote:

Yeah, in a sense, I am agreeing with you. I guess I just feel bad for women. I hate the stuff that religion have thrust upon women. I feel bad for how they have been used by religion. (Not just Christianity, which is mild by many standards.)

It is like the women in the Mormon cults. They sometimes get married off at 15 to an old man with several wives and they are taught never to question their Bible and their beliefs. I wish they would question it.

But who knows? Maybe they are happy with their lives?

Christ, was willingly, and lovingly, submissive to the Father, through obedience, and the honoring of a covenant relationship, through that He shined the Truth and redeemed(s) many. Again, marriage is a picture of Christ and His church. In fact, all relationships are pictures of Christ. God's perfect design is a Father who is submissive to Christ, and leading His wife, and children, in obedience, and a mother who is submissive to Christ, and her husband, and leading her children in obedience, and children who are submissive to Christ, and their parents, leading their younger siblings, and eventually their own families, in obedience. They walk the narrow Way in this manner.

Consider for a moment that this is the specific Truthful picture of family design, and an absolute Truth. Then, all else is the distortion, the mormon example, the Islam example, the world's example of living together with no commitment, divorce, etc. Also, the world treats women just as bad as Islam, mormons, and so on because of sin. Consider the prostitutes, and those involved in porn, drugs, and marriages where women are abused, and used. What restricts these men? Not God. None of this aligns with God's perfect design, which is beautiful. Then you have other distortions such as homosexuality, or feminism, and they try to appear more credible, and as if they are offering something greater that God's design, but in the end it is self serving. The church has even done this to an extent, because it has swallowed the lie of feminism, and other such teachings. At the expense of families many have been given exactly what their flesh craves....and I know, absolutely, that it is less fulfilling, and purposeful.

There is a servitude required by all unto God in obedience, and self denial, and a family is no different. There is something about serving my Lord, my husband, and my children that is most fulfilling, and purpose filled. It's this perfect pitch in my soul somehow...hard to explain, but I know it is only because Christ is at the root of it, and my life is given to Him in obedience.

I wish I could convey this better, but you are the one who is always saying question, and consider alternatives...so do that.

The Lord bless you this morning.

 

[John the Baptist]

Yeah, in a sense, I am agreeing with you. I guess I just feel bad for women. I hate the stuff that religion have thrust upon women. I feel bad for how they have been used by religion. (Not just Christianity, which is mild by many standards.)

It is like the women in the Mormon cults. They sometimes get married off at 15 to an old man with several wives and they are taught never to question their Bible and their beliefs. I wish they would question it.

But who knows? Maybe they are happy with their lives?

*****
John here:
Remember that we see both the good & the bad in the O.T. Even laws other than the Eternal Covenant. (that were against us)
And the followers of God?? Who killed Christ? So, when we talk of Gods will & deeds, we need to be sure of what [and who] we are talking about. Were these ones not [both] professed to be followers of God???

So: Read Isaiah 42:21 in the K.J. and we see the 'Inspiration' of 'one' O.T. verse that Christ was sent to the earth to correct. MAGNIFY THE LAW AND MAKE IT HONORABLE.
A person can get all messed up using just O.T. alone without discernment of understanding an Honorable Covenant! Only Look at the N.T. & the Protestant ones of today! What does Revelation 17:1-5 tell you? Are these only the Morman cults?
Notice what The Godhead tell [US] in caps even? Now, with just this alone, it does not take much insight to understand that we surely need to use the Word of God instead of the professed God serving men of the world, right? Jeremiah 17:5. And Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 are even N.T. Commands, huh? Add Christ's Words of N.T. Matthew 28:20.

Magnify the Covenant & make it Honorable??? The problem surely can aways be seen as on mans side of the agreement! Again, it is Christ that said it plainly, "If ye LOVE ME keep my Commandments." Does these Eternal Words need to be MAGNIFIED again??

 

[dancing queen]

So, nothing says that God sees women as being less than men.

Ignoring old covenant rules and the relationship with husband (as i dont think that chunk is feminism but maybe will bring it up in another thread) is there anything that affects womens role in society, how society should treat her, her role in church life?