Feminism

[Quath]

This I can not convey to you except in a very plain sentence that may not reach any depth in you at all. I read a devotion on this the day before yesterday, and it resonated with me as believer because it is a truth that I know by living it.

I guess you are right in that it doesn't resonate in me. My first thought is that I have heard similar things from believers of other religions. A Muslims will talk of the beauty of the Quran and its perfection shows it was God/Allah inspired. Pagans have told me that watching nature will reveal Mother Nature to you in a way that no book can ever. Buddhists and Hindus may talk about meditation and reaching inner enlightenment. New Agers say that I should study the power of crystals and feel the power of the Earth to see the truth.

So to me, it just seems that if you really want something to be true, you will find a way for it to resonate in your life.

Consider for a moment that this is the specific Truthful picture of family design, and an absolute Truth. Then, all else is the distortion, the mormon example, the Islam example, the world's example of living together with no commitment, divorce, etc.

But is it? If the Old Testament is true and if it reflect God's intentions for family, then a family is a husband with one or more wives who may have been married to him as young as 13 and who may own slaves. Children are to be beaten if they disobey and killed if they act too rebelious. Wives are to be submissive and husbands take care of their wives. Slaves are not to be beaten too hard and slaves should obey their masters.

So to me, Mormons seem to be closer to what God set up in the beginning except for the slaves.

There is a servitude required by all unto God in obedience, and self denial, and a family is no different. There is something about serving my Lord, my husband, and my children that is most fulfilling, and purpose filled. It's this perfect pitch in my soul somehow...hard to explain, but I know it is only because Christ is at the root of it, and my life is given to Him in obedience.

There are some who are happy being submissive and that is fine. However, I have seen it on both sides of the gender. I have seen happy couples where the woman is the dominant one and the man is submissive. To me, that is fine because they have found happiness. However, it is religion that tells them that this happiness is false and they must stop. Just as religious people tried to stop interracial marriages because they went against God.

I wish I could convey this better, but you are the one who is always saying question, and consider alternatives...so do that.

I guess I just believe that women and men are equal in the sense that they should have equal opportunity to life's opportunities. I guess that is a very basic idea within myself and I doubt any religious teaching can ever convince me that this is false.

So, nothing says that God sees women as being less than men.

Except the Old Testament. It is mostly Paul in the New Testament that portrays women as less than men.

Ignoring old covenant rules and the relationship with husband (as i dont think that chunk is feminism but maybe will bring it up in another thread) is there anything that affects womens role in society, how society should treat her, her role in church life?

Well, it is hard to separate the old from the new. If God says that a wife should serve her husband, then that is justification that women should not get the right to vote (after all, they should vote as their husbands would). So beliefs from the old can influence new beliefs.

So passages like

"If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..." Leviticus 12:1-5

and

"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26

can lead Christians to eventually say stuff like

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die." St. Tertullian

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children." St. Augustine of Hippo

"If they [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there." Martin Luther

Jesus appeared to try to treat women more equally than was proper for the time. He ignored ritual impurity laws, talked to foreign women, taught women students, accepted women to his inner circle, told stories about women and in general spoke in terms that showed women had worth like a man. However, this treatment by Jesus did not undo the Old Testament views of women because the Old Testament was suppose to show how God saw women and God does not change.

Just think about how long it took for women to be able to vote. Would you want that taken away? But it took a very long time in a Christian dominated society before it was granted as a right. I think it has a lot to do with the Christian beliefs.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die." St. Tertullian

This doesn't have much bearing on the whole topic, but I feel Adam chose to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, because he loved Eve. He knew what God had said was true, but he didn't want to be separated from Eve - True Love.

Genesis 3:12 (King James Version)
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

1 Timothy 2:14 (King James Version)
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam knew full-well what he was doing, but he would rather spend a mortal life with his Love, then an immortal life without her. I admire him for that.

 

[Quath]

Adam knew full-well what he was doing, but he would rather spend a mortal life with his Love, then an immortal life without her. I admire him for that.

Heh, you could carry this one step further. If you knew your loved one was going to hell, would you go to hell with him/her or go to heaven without?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Heh, you could carry this one step further. If you knew your loved one was going to hell, would you go to hell with him/her or go to heaven without?

If I was truly in Love with a girl I would choose to go to hell with her, rather than be in Heaven. Christians can mock me for my "stupid" choice, but "Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up, is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil, is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth, is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all."

 

[John the Baptist]

If I was truly in Love with a girl I would choose to go to hell with her, rather than be in Heaven. Christians can mock me for my "stupid" choice, but "Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up, is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil, is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth, is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all."

****
Love??
You know not what makes LOVE REAL friend!
--John

PS: I might get canned over this remark, but you will never convince me that you would die for anyone, period! This (pretended) 'gal'? Hogwash!
Plus you say that Love is not [bragging???] You sound like some Christian folk telling the universe that they Love Christ. 1 John 2:4

 

[Gendou Ikari]

****
Love??
You know not what makes LOVE REAL friend!
--John

Why because I am not 'In Christ?'

Love means you do not give up, Love means you do not forsake, Love means you are willing to do anything just to be with that person.

If you believe Love means giving up, like locking someone in a ******** hell for all eternity, then we are light-years apart, and further conversation is pointless.

PS: I might get canned over this remark, but you will never convince me that you would die for anyone, period! This (pretended) 'gal'? Hogwash!
Plus you say that Love is not [bragging???] You sound like some Christian folk telling the universe that they Love Christ. 1 John 2:4

How is it that I am bragging? I was asked a simple question, and I gave a simple answer. I never said I would die for anybody. If I was Truly in Love, I would die for the person, but I never claimed to be Truly in Love.

 

[lovely]

Hi again Quath,

Well, round and round we go, I guess. I think you missed the point that John made in his first post, which answered some of your last responses to me. Or, maybe you didn't understand it. (?) The Lord bless you.


dancing queen,
You should look at feminism a little closer maybe, and just pray about the matter more as you read the Word of God. I'd say, if you love Him just be willing to be given over to Him in every area, and don't count the cost.

John,
Thanks for your post, it was a blessing to me today...I am learning from you, brother. (An older one, I think.) :wink: The Lord bless you.

 

[cyberjosh]

This seems to show a level where men are directly under Jesus and women are under men. So women are one more step removed from Jesus than men are.

So, nothing says that God sees women as being less than men.

No we are all the same in Christ, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

But there is a heiarchy as someone has already pointed out, of Christ -> Husband -> Wife. And then there is Husband & Wife -> Kids (Honor your father & mother). Children are subject also, does this make children mistreated? No.

If you want some real bias read the Apocrypha:

"Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; it is woman who brings shame and disgrace. (Ben Sira (Sirach) 42:14)

WHAT?! So much for the inspiration of Ben Sira!!! Talk about calling evil 'good', and good 'evil' (Isaiah 5:20)!


Edit: Check out this site here: http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/wo ... _times.htm . It covers all of this very well, and even mentions that astounding verse from Ben Sira.

 

[Quath]

No we are all the same in Christ, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

But we are not all the same in power on Earth according to the Bible.

But there is a heiarchy as someone has already pointed out, of Christ -> Husband -> Wife. And then there is Husband & Wife -> Kids (Honor your father & mother). Children are subject also, does this make children mistreated? No.

This heiarchy is what I was pointing out. In a sense, you are proving my point. It forms an analogy: Women are to men as children are to their parents.

Why can't women be up higher in the heiarchy? It seems to me it is because the Bible (that was written by men) say they should not be. I see no other reason.

If you want some real bias read the Apocrypha:

Heh I noticed that.

 

[cyberjosh]

But we are not all the same in power on Earth according to the Bible.

What do you mean? Spiritually? In that case a woman could be more mature spiritually than a man could, so that works both ways.

This heiarchy is what I was pointing out. In a sense, you are proving my point. It forms an analogy: Women are to men as children are to their parents.

But note that parenting is a co-operative effort.

Why can't women be up higher in the heiarchy? It seems to me it is because the Bible (that was written by men) say they should not be. I see no other reason.

What would you suggest then? That men and women switch places? From what you're saying it sounds more like you would vote for having no heiarchy at all, having all people at the same level of authority. That would mean anarchy though, and anarchy doesn't work in a social system, and certainly doesn't among God's theocracy. Surely you see the necessity of a hierarchical system. This doesn't mean that women are mistreated though, just as children are not mistreated by just being in the position of being someone's child. The Bible does not set up a system that would lead to mistreatement of women if properly implemented.

Also the institution of the Family and the role of each one are pivotal for God's plan for mankind, why do you think that God uses the title "Father"? Not to be anthropomorphic I'll tell you that, it's rather because he has the heart and nature of a Father: lovingly, and caringly, overseeing his children and (consequently) his wife/bride to be (in the form of the Church). God is the supreme example of what a father should be and how he should treat his wife and children, with no mistreatment whatsoever.

Heh I noticed that.

Yeah, Ben Sira was a hoot. I wonder how he treated his wife!

And as a practical application he would be saying that Haman was more righteous than Queen Esther!

Get real!!!

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh, and Quath, if you don't mind could you post your replies in this other thread the rest of our discussion? Sorry, this discussion developed two fronts when I made thread centered around just this particular issue. The link to the thread is here: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=25481 . It's in the Bible Discussion thread if you ever need to find it without a link.

I'll quote, copy, & paste your last post in that thread to try to consolidate the discussion. Sorry for any inconvenience.

 

[Quath]

What do you mean? Spiritually? In that case a woman could be more mature spiritually than a man could, so that works both ways.

I thinking of earthly power. Feminism is concerned about that. A slave and a master may be "equal" to Jesus, but they are very unequal on Earth. A lot of this sounds like givine women very little rights but at the same time double talking and saying they are equal.

The Bible is just reinforcing inequality and the concept that all people are not created equal.

What would you suggest then? That men and women switch places?

I would say let the best person be higher up. Or if the couple is capable, let them share the authority. Or at the very least, let a couple flip a coin for it. Why should it default to a man? Do men have spiritually superior abilities?

God is the supreme example of what a father should be and how he should treat his wife and children, with no mistreatment whatsoever.

I guess I see that as kind of a scary thought. God is ok with telling some of his childrenn to kill others. He is ok with some children owning other children. He is ok with children raping other children so long as they marry.

What kind of father would ever watch his 8 year old daughter get gang raped and mulitated and not lift a finger to help? So I don't think that God as a father is a very good analogy. But maybe most of that comes from my disbelief in God.

Yeah, Ben Sira was a hoot. I wonder how he treated his wife!

Heh. I feel for her.

Oh, and Quath, if you don't mind could you post your replies in this other thread the rest of our discussion?

I think it is also in the Parenting and Marriage section as well. I will copy this reply there.

 

[cyberjosh]

I think it is also in the Parenting and Marriage section as well.

Touchy issue huh? :P