Fight or not??

[cosmicutopia]

I have been struggling with this... Should Christians fight tyranny, evil and oppressive governments/legislation/laws or should we passively lay down to it and let our rights get taken away and only be concerned with saving people?

Is it biblical to fight these things?

 

[handy]

I don't see the Church being called to fight against such things except in the spiritual sense.

But, this is really not an either/or situation: Either we fight tyranny, evil and oppressive governments/legislation/laws or we passively lay down to it and let our rights get taken away.

Our first order of business as Christians is to spread the Gospel. But, this doesn't mean that a Christian should not vote their conscience, write a letter to an elected official or engage in civil activity in other ways. But, what "a" Christian does, and what we as "Christians" (ie the Church) do, are two different matters. I think we can look to history to see that when the Church concerns herself with governments, we don't do a good job of it.

 

[WIP]

I'm with Handy here. Part of being Christian is to witness for Christ. How can we do that if we stick our head in the sand and remain silent. In a monarchy, we don't express opinion to the king unless he specifically asks for it but in a representative republic or democracy it is our place to express our opinion. We should do so with Christ on our heart.

 

[Drew]

I have been struggling with this... Should Christians fight tyranny, evil and oppressive governments/legislation/laws or should we passively lay down to it and let our rights get taken away and only be concerned with saving people?

Is it biblical to fight these things?

Wow. I think the answer is obvious - we should not simply be concerned with "saving" people, we should work for the establishment of the kingdom of God.

So, yes, we are to advocate for kingdom of God values in all spheres of human activity, including government.

Jesus is a sitting King. We, as His subjects are to implement His Kingdom in all its fullness, not simply seek to "save" people.

 

[Drew]

I don't see the Church being called to fight against such things except in the spiritual sense.

I am not sure what you mean by this distinction. The gospel is supposed to be good news for the poor. This does not mean "the poor can go to heaven when they die", although this is indeed true. It means that Jesus is calling us to an entirely new way of ordering our world - one in which the poor are cared for.

Our first order of business as Christians is to spread the Gospel.

True enough, but despite widespread misunderstanding, the gospel, as Paul uses the term is not the message of salvation by faith, it is the message that Jesus is Lord. People will deny this, but if you actually read Paul carefully, this is clearly what he is saying.

So to "spread the gospel" is to implement Jesus' kingship. And this means shaping our world in accordance with Kingdom of God values.

I think we can look to history to see that when the Church concerns herself with governments, we don't do a good job of it.

Even if this is true, which I doubt - consider e.g. the reforms made by that British guy re slavery - the Bible is pretty clear: the church is indeed called to implement the kingdom of God. And this means that we are called to advocate for implementation of kingdom of God in all areas, including government.

If we do not get involved in government and seek to shape it, someone else will.

And I suggest that someone will have pointy ears and a pitchfork.

 

[ronniechoate34]

I have been struggling with this... Should Christians fight tyranny, evil and oppressive governments/legislation/laws or should we passively lay down to it and let our rights get taken away and only be concerned with saving people?

Is it biblical to fight these things?

Did Daniel fight the power?


No, he didn't. Not even when laws were passed against his beliefs.


Daniel just continued to believe in what he believed in, and he prayed to his God. And then when it was time for him to enter the den of lions he was subservient to the people and their customs. Daniel had faith that no matter what happened to his physical body God would take care of him.

Matthew:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Drew]

Did Daniel fight the power?


No, he didn't. Not even when laws were passed against his beliefs.

I think you are mixing things up.

Yes, Daniel did not resist getting tossed into the lion's den. But that certainly does not mean that, in the rest of his life in Babylon, Daniel was not doing his part to advocate for the God of Israel.

In other words, the fact that Daniel did not resist the lion's den is hardly an argument that we are not to challenge the powers that run our world.

The proper analogy is this: If you as a Christian are sentenced to death for advocating for the adoption of kingdom of God values in our society - something I suggest that we are Biblically mandated to do - you should arguably not "put up a fight" as you are led to the execution site.

So the Daniel example does not challenge what is otherwise clear in the Bible - Christians are indeed called to transform all the institutions of our world.

 

[ronniechoate34]

I think you are mixing things up.

Yes, Daniel did not resist getting tossed into the lion's den. But that certainly does not mean that, in the rest of his life in Babylon, Daniel was not doing his part to advocate for the God of Israel.

In other words, the fact that Daniel did not resist the lion's den is hardly an argument that we are not to challenge the powers that run our world.

The proper analogy is this: If you as a Christian are sentenced to death for advocating for the adoption of kingdom of God values in our society - something I suggest that we are Biblically mandated to do - you should arguably not "put up a fight" as you are led to the execution site.

So the Daniel example does not challenge what is otherwise clear in the Bible - Christians are indeed called to transform all the institutions of our world.

Daniel did not fight the powers that existed in his time. Daniel followed the laws of the people without protest, he did not raise a fuss about things and try to buck the system.


Daniel:6:4: Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he was faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him.
Daniel:6:5: Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God.
Daniel:6:6: Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever.
Daniel:6:7: All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellers, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.
Daniel:6:8: Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
Daniel:6:9: Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.
Daniel:6:10: Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

He didn't scream about it. He simply carried on worshipping the Lord as he had always done. He did so in faith.


We are actually called to be obedient unto death if needs be.


Jesus' kingdom is not of this world.

 

[Prince]

I have been struggling with this... Should Christians fight tyranny, evil and oppressive governments/legislation/laws or should we passively lay down to it and let our rights get taken away and only be concerned with saving people?

Is it biblical to fight these things?

Although the first goal for christiains is to spread the gospel, the things that you have mentioned are much of the time road-blocks to the chritian goal. So yes we are to fight - the question then becomes how do you fight these things?

<SUP>1</SUP>Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

As ones struggles to fight evil you must keep in mind that we live under prophecy thus many of these things must take place for scripture to be fulfilled..

 

[Drew]

Daniel did not fight the powers that existed in his time. Daniel followed the laws of the people without protest, he did not raise a fuss about things and try to buck the system.


Daniel:6:4: Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he was faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him.
Daniel:6:5: Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God.
Daniel:6:6: Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever.
Daniel:6:7: All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellers, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.
Daniel:6:8: Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
Daniel:6:9: Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.
Daniel:6:10: Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

He didn't scream about it. He simply carried on worshipping the Lord as he had always done. He did so in faith.

The text you have provided does not support your assertion. In fact they did indeed find fault:

except we find it against him concerning the law of his God

So Daniel was indeed "challenging the powers" - He obeyed the Law of Moses which was a challenge to the powers of Babylon.

 

[Drew]

Jesus' kingdom is not of this world.

Not correct - it is clear from many, many texts that Jesus is indeed king of this world.

You are probably, like many others, thinking of that famous text from John 18. I will now make the case that that text is a mistranslation.

Note this from John 18:

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.<O:p</O:p

 

[ronniechoate34]

Jesus is coming to put an end to the kingdoms of the earth. That's Jesus and not the pitiful protests of the Christian man that will set things right.


I say it again. We are called upon to be obedient to God and not men. And God asks us to live peacefully in the land. I doubt if that includes fighting the system.

 

[Drew]

Jesus is coming to put an end to the kingdoms of the earth. That's Jesus and not the pitiful protests of the Christian man that will set things right.

I have provided a number of counter-arguments to your arguments that

1. We are not to challenge the powers that be;
2. That Jesus is not presently Lord.

Are you not to engage those counterarguments?

And I am prepared to argue that Jesus has already, in a very important sense "put an end to the kingdoms of the earth".

Jesus I say it again. We are called upon to be obedient to God and not men. And God asks us to live peacefully in the land. I doubt if that includes fighting the system.

First, I have never denied we are to be obedient to God.

Second, I have never suggested that we are not be "peacable" - one can, and should, challenge the powers in a "peaceable" manner.

Third, I see no actual Biblical case that we are not "to fight the system" (peaceably, of course).

 

[Drew]

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Peter and John pray in response to the actions of the religious leaders. The prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2 - not a co-incidence:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORDand against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. And more to the point, the Acts text shows that He is a king over nations – so this is not the “heavenly” kingdom so many imagine, it is a kingdom of this present world. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares?

Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.<O:p</O:p

 

[WIP]

Did Daniel fight the power?


No, he didn't. Not even when laws were passed against his beliefs.


Daniel just continued to believe in what he believed in, and he prayed to his God. And then when it was time for him to enter the den of lions he was subservient to the people and their customs. Daniel had faith that no matter what happened to his physical body God would take care of him.

Matthew:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What about Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, and the other prophets? It doesn’t sound like they sat back and kept their mouths shut. They spoke boldly despite living in a society where it was potentially dangerous for one to speak out against the government. It is quite obvious these prophets didn’t sit behind closed doors in secret when they spoke their message but spoke out in public against the lifestyle of the day. Their efforts were aimed at shaping their society and their government.

 

[ronniechoate34]

What about Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial, and the other prophets? It doesn’t sound like they sat back and kept their mouths shut. They spoke boldly despite living in a society where it was potentially dangerous for one to speak out against the government. It is quite obvious these prophets didn’t sit behind closed doors in secret when they spoke their message but spoke out in public against the lifestyle of the day. Their efforts were aimed at shaping their society and their government.

I think that everyone is missing my point.


That's probably my fault.

 

[Drew]

I think that everyone is missing my point.

That's probably my fault.

Fair enough - I often find it very challenging to make the specific point I wish to make. So you are not alone.

Is your basic point that the way we try to shape governments and society (to borrow a phrase from WIP) should be the way of peace? In other words, we are not to participate in violent revolution or even the use of hurtful, demeaning rhetoric? That we should always express our critique of society in a constructive manner?

If so, I am certainly on board with that. Yes, we are (I think) called to shape our world, but how we do it matters very much.

 

[God&DogGirl]

Martin Luthor King Jr. supported nonviolent protests when the laws were unjust. He said that disobeying unjust laws actually proved that we had too much respect for the law to allow them to continue. So yes Christians should fight... just not violently.

I think that's my basic view on the subject too.

 

[WIP]

Fair enough - I often find it very challenging to make the specific point I wish to make. So you are not alone.

Is your basic point that the way we try to shape governments and society (to borrow a phrase from WIP) should be the way of peace? In other words, we are not to participate in violent revolution or even the use of hurtful, demeaning rhetoric? That we should always express our critique of society in a constructive manner?

If so, I am certainly on board with that. Yes, we are (I think) called to shape our world, but how we do it matters very much.

If this is what ronnie is talking about then I agree too but that's not how I took it.

 

[ronniechoate34]

My point is that we should be vocal about our concerns, but not to the people who make the laws. We need to pray to God because He is the one who has the power.

Luke:21:25: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke:21:26: Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke:21:27: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke:21:28: And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.