[_ Old Earth _] Fine Tuning

[Drew]

Even scripture and the scientists both say that the universe is headed towards a heat death. It'll all be burned up.

I do not believe Scripture teaches this; instead, I believe, it teaches that God will redeem and heal the Universe. Yes, there is that text from 1 or 2 Peter, but there are many others, not least a bit in Romans 8, that teaches that creation will be restored, not burned away. I would bet a good case can be made that the 1 or 2 Peter text is to be taken as metaphor for cleansing, not for destruction.

God made creation and called it very good. It would be surprising if He were to ultimately destroy His own handiwork.

 

[Gary]

God made creation and called it very good. It would be surprising if He were to ultimately destroy His own handiwork.

Read the account of the flood.

 

[Edward]

Most scientists actually believe that it would be cold death, but I would that is of course speculation, nor do I think you and I believe that this will come to pass either way.

Do you think the entire universe will be destroyed? It would only be hot enough if the universe collapsed in on itself due to gravity, but all our observations are pointing to stars moving faster and faster apart.

Yes I do. Scripture says it will all pass away and be burned up. I do know it will come to pass because the Lord said it will. The actual mechanics of it I don't know because there are things about God ways that I do not know.

 

[Drew]

Yes I do. Scripture says it will all pass away and be burned up. I do know it will come to pass because the Lord said it will. The actual mechanics of it I don't know because there are things about God ways that I do not know.

I don't think the overall Biblical picture supports this idea that the earth will be destroyed. First of all, the entire Biblical narrative speaks of God redeeming and saving His creation - the book of Isaiah is full of images of a restored earth. And then we have this from the book of Romans:

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

This is an image of creations restored and redeemed, not destroyed.

I will bet most scholars will argue that the stuff in 1 or 2 Peter is an image of cleansing by fire.

Look at Revelation 22: Heaven comes down to earth. Do you still maintain that earth will be destroyed?

 

[jasonc]

I don't think the overall Biblical picture supports this idea that the earth will be destroyed. First of all, the entire Biblical narrative speaks of God redeeming and saving His creation - the book of Isaiah is full of images of a restored earth. And then we have this from the book of Romans:

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

This is an image of creations restored and redeemed, not destroyed.

I will bet most scholars will argue that the stuff in 1 or 2 Peter is an image of cleansing by fire.

Look at Revelation 22: Heaven comes down to earth. Do you still maintain that earth will be destroyed?

new heaven and new earth. even though I see a redemption but uhm said redemption in context would mean that death and suffering was the norm as that is what god intended. that is the problem I have with theistic evolution but that is off topic.

 

[Drew]

Well, either way, I agree it's off topic.

 

[Edward]

Well there's the scripture about I saw a new heaven and a new earth and all former things were passed away. I think that's pretty clear.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Cosmology eh? I have some info on that. They say that at first there was nothing...and then it exploded, lol. Seriously though uh, since the advances in technology a lot of progress has been made and new things learned for facts, some old theories have been both proven and also disproven. One of the big things that we have learned in recent years is that the physics constants are not constant like we first thought. They thought that the universe was infinity, and we now know that we life in a finite universe with absolute limits both in the macrocosm and the microcosm (Big scale/small scale). They have proven this. We now know that we live in a holographic projection, that there most definitely are more dimensions than the four that we know about and can see. This info comes from scientists who are not even Christians or looking for or debating creationism or evolutionism. They're just scientists doing their job. Their words were that our reality is but a shadow of a larger reality that we can not see...Which is what the bible has been saying all along.

I got this info from a scientific journal and have it. I'd be happy to reproduce it here for your perusal if you like. It's a few years old so I don't think it's copyrighted or anything like that. Interested? It's a little long, but highly interesting. And not just some guys opinion.

It would be nice if you could share the journal, considering I'm very interested in who "They" are. Mainly because I want to know who came up with the solipisist argument that the universe we reside in is holographic.

 

[Milk-Drops]

that is acceptable to a scientist? we wont know and cant?

To a scientist, if our knowledge runs out, it is perfectly acceptable to state that you don't know. However that means that more study and research will be done in the field to then increase the knowledge needed for our own understanding.

 

[Edward]

It would be nice if you could share the journal, considering I'm very interested in who "They" are. Mainly because I want to know who came up with the solipisist argument that the universe we reside in is holographic.

It was an article ran in Scientific American in 2005 that I already posted most of it. It has a lot of names of scientist muckety mucks who was in on it in it. I couldn't post the full article because it had lots of pictures and footnotes and stuff too. I'd be happy to send it to you as a file through e-mail if you want, the entire thing. PM me your e-mail addy.

Plus, I googled it just now and got a bunch of hits where they're trying to prove it for themselves that the universe is a hologram by a big experiment where they are using mirrors and lasers to measure the Jittery vibrations of the hologram or something like that. I don't have a lot of time right now because I'm doing my morning office routine and getting ready to go to work...

 

[Milk-Drops]

Hey Ed, just wanted to let ya know that Scientific American isn't a journal, but a Pop Science magazine. I'll definitely look into it though, mainly because I want to see which muckity mucks are saying what.

 

[Edward]

Hey Ed, just wanted to let ya know that Scientific American isn't a journal, but a Pop Science magazine. I'll definitely look into it though, mainly because I want to see which muckity mucks are saying what.

Oh ok. When I googled it (is the universe a hologram?) a bunch of science sites came up. From what I can tell briefly this morning, some others are following up and trying to prove it also since it's out in the mainstream now.

 

[Edward]

Do you guys know about the double split experiment? Photons beamed through a panel with two slits in it and forming a pattern in a certain way (two slits, up and down). Then when they do it again...but do not observe it while it is going on...then it forms a wave pattern, instead of slits. Like they know if they're being observed! Photons!

This is how they are saying that the particles in the universe act and from what I understand...it's astounding and verrrry significant because, according to our laws of physics...that shouldn't happen.

If you don't know about it, haven't heard or whatever, go to youtube and search for double slit experiment. It's all over youtube.

 

[jasonc]

To a scientist, if our knowledge runs out, it is perfectly acceptable to state that you don't know. However that means that more study and research will be done in the field to then increase the knowledge needed for our own understanding.

yes I know but the implication that its unsearchable and therefore a thing let to god isn't possible in science.

 

[jasonc]

Do you guys know about the double split experiment? Photons beamed through a panel with two slits in it and forming a pattern in a certain way (two slits, up and down). Then when they do it again...but do not observe it while it is going on...then it forms a wave pattern, instead of slits. Like they know if they're being observed! Photons!

This is how they are saying that the particles in the universe act and from what I understand...it's astounding and verrrry significant because, according to our laws of physics...that shouldn't happen.

If you don't know about it, haven't heard or whatever, go to youtube and search for double slit experiment. It's all over youtube.

I would like a peer reviewed source on that.

 

[Edward]

I would like a peer reviewed source on that.

I think this is what you want... From the article:


"The quantum double slit experiment is a great example of how consciousness and our physical material world are intertwined. One potential revelation of this experience is that “the observer creates the reality.” A paper published in the peer-reviewed journal Physics Essays explains how this experiment has been used multiple times to explore the role of consciousness in shaping the nature of physical reality. (2)

In this experiment, a double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wave-function. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double slit spectral power to its single slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. The study found that factors associated with consciousness significantly correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double slit interference pattern.(2) For visual demonstration of this experiment, click here.

“Observation not only disturbs what has to be measured, they produce it. We compel the electron to assume a definite position. We ourselves produce the results of the measurement.” (2)

“A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the observer creates the reality. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. Physicists are being forced to admit that the universe is a “mental” construction. Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” (R.C. Henry, “The Mental Universe” ; Nature 436:29,2005) (1)"/

From http://www.collective-evolution.com...usness-can-alter-our-physical-material-world/

 

[jasonc]

I think this is what you want... From the article:


"The quantum double slit experiment is a great example of how consciousness and our physical material world are intertwined. One potential revelation of this experience is that “the observer creates the reality.” A paper published in the peer-reviewed journal Physics Essays explains how this experiment has been used multiple times to explore the role of consciousness in shaping the nature of physical reality. (2)

In this experiment, a double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wave-function. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double slit spectral power to its single slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. The study found that factors associated with consciousness significantly correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double slit interference pattern.(2) For visual demonstration of this experiment, click here.

“Observation not only disturbs what has to be measured, they produce it. We compel the electron to assume a definite position. We ourselves produce the results of the measurement.” (2)

“A fundamental conclusion of the new physics also acknowledges that the observer creates the reality. As observers, we are personally involved with the creation of our own reality. Physicists are being forced to admit that the universe is a “mental” construction. Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” (R.C. Henry, “The Mental Universe” ; Nature 436:29,2005) (1)"/

From http://www.collective-evolution.com...usness-can-alter-our-physical-material-world/

almost biblical, the zen Buddhist I know would love this.

 

[Jesse]

Do you guys know about the double split experiment? Photons beamed through a panel with two slits in it and forming a pattern in a certain way (two slits, up and down). Then when they do it again...but do not observe it while it is going on...then it forms a wave pattern, instead of slits. Like they know if they're being observed! Photons!

This is how they are saying that the particles in the universe act and from what I understand...it's astounding and verrrry significant because, according to our laws of physics...that shouldn't happen.

If you don't know about it, haven't heard or whatever, go to youtube and search for double slit experiment. It's all over youtube.

I have watched several videos on this just now and it is fascinating, if a person could figure it out, they'd be rich and famous.

We JUST studied waves and photons in my college Chemistry class and not one word of this was mentioned. I noticed some of these videos are from 7 years ago, so I am anxious to ask my teacher why this wasn't mentioned. It seems pretty important to me, it's over riding our own laws of physics, so why wouldn't an anomaly be discussed? It seems our college unit was inadequate. grrrr....

 

[Edward]

I have watched several videos on this just now and it is fascinating, if a person could figure it out, they'd be rich and famous.

We JUST studied waves and photons in my college Chemistry class and not one word of this was mentioned. I noticed some of these videos are from 7 years ago, so I am anxious to ask my teacher why this wasn't mentioned. It seems pretty important to me, it's over riding our own laws of physics, so why wouldn't an anomaly be discussed? It seems our college unit was inadequate. grrrr....

That would be a good question to ask him.

About the universe and fine tuning...I just realized something else...Perhaps one of our resident evolutionists will answer this:

Supposing that the big bang created all of the planets and solar systems and so forth...BANG, a lot of stuff was blown outward and went out to form planets and stuff... they would all have the same momentum and stuff from the explosion...why don't all of our planets rotate the same direction? Jupiter, I think rotates opposite and a couple of it's moons, and another one too...Neptune? How could this be if one big bang started them in motion?

There's a law concerning this...the law of angular momentum I think it's called...In fact, I think our entire Milky Way rotates the wrong way as compared with earth and so forth. It's almost as if...God knew this argument would come up, so He did this on purpose for some evidence for us, lol. (The Lord has a great sense of humor).

 

[jasonc]

That would be a good question to ask him.

About the universe and fine tuning...I just realized something else...Perhaps one of our resident evolutionists will answer this:

Supposing that the big bang created all of the planets and solar systems and so forth...BANG, a lot of stuff was blown outward and went out to form planets and stuff... they would all have the same momentum and stuff from the explosion...why don't all of our planets rotate the same direction? Jupiter, I think rotates opposite and a couple of it's moons, and another one too...Neptune? How could this be if one big bang started them in motion?

There's a law concerning this...the law of angular momentum I think it's called...In fact, I think our entire Milky Way rotates the wrong way as compared with earth and so forth. It's almost as if...God knew this argument would come up, so He did this on purpose for some evidence for us, lol. (The Lord has a great sense of humor).

the law of angular conservatum. venus and Neptune are retrograde and our moon orbits opposite to our rotation. I think.