[_ Old Earth _] FLAT-EARTHISM IS BIBLICALY CORRECT

[yesha]

**Please cite verses in the Bible that support a spherical earth.**

When you say "earth", you no doubt mean the planet earth, including atmosphere, land, and sea.

The word 'erets, used in the bible however is translated as Land, earth, Egypt, ground, country, countries, lands, Canaan, world, region, territory, Edom, Gilead, Judah, wild, area, and a whole lot of other words in the niv.

If you think of "dry land" which Gen 1:10 defines as "earth" then it's probably not best to think of the "earth" as spherical, because a contenent of land is not spherical, but is actually closer to, lets say, "flat". Not only is it "flat", it is also surrounded by water!. Even if one were to put all the contenents together into a super Pangeia, lets say in a perfect rectangle with four well defined corners, then I believe the earth would still be closer to flat then to a sphere. Now lets take this thoretical super contenent and drift pieces apart. At what point would the four corners of the earth cease to describe the extent of the earth?

;)

 

[Heidi]

I fail to understand what your beef is with Job 28:12,13.

Please don't tell me that you are taking the "ends of the earth" to mean that the Bible is saying that the earth has ends to it. It's called a "figure of speech" and I'm sure you haven't questioned it a thousand other times you have read it in other books or heard it used in speech.

How does one decide which parts of the Bible are metaphoric, figures of speech or to be taken literally?

Discernment through the Hioly Spirit which is called faith. Humans can only understand what they see and nothing more. Scientists at one time thought the smallest particle was an atom because that's all they could see. Now they can see a smaller particle which they call a quark so they say that's the smallest particle. But the unseen is far more vast than the seen. Far more vast. So when one opens his eyes to larger truths than just what he can see, he will learn much.

 

[jgarden_47]

By using our God-given brains and putting things in context both historically and culturally. That and being led by the Spirit when interpreting scripture.

There are literally thousands of different denominations, groups, sects, etc. of Christians who despite those "God-given brains" have differing interpretations of scripture. The Bible and other Christian writings repeatedly refer to the earth as firm, immovable, corners, ends, long and broad and having foundations and pillars.

Only science appears to contradict this important part of Christian theology that has existed throught the history of the Church. There have been other issues (creation, evolution) where the Church has refuted scientific theories so why should this be any different. The precedent has already been set that scientific "claims"are irrelevant when they contradict the Bible.

 

[Vic C.]

Matthew 23:24 Blind guides, straining out the gnat, but swallowing the camel!
(LITV)

Did the blind guides really swallow a camel? (a whole one; that is what this verse is telling us) The scientific laws of physics would tell you it is a physical impossibility. But the Bible says they swallowed camels. Which one is correct in this case? It all depends now on whether you see this as being literal or figurative.

This is what I was trying to say when I said you must look at these things within the context of when they were written (historical) and who was doing the writing (cultural).

By taking every single detail in as though they were literal, you are, in effect, swallowing a camel. (and, btw, you will run into these so-called contradictions the non believers are always pointing out to us)

Seven or eight people already posted in this thread. Are we all wrong and you're right? Sure science has it's problems, but so does religion. The simple fact that there are so many denominations, as you pointed out, prooves this. But one day, science and religion WILL be in complete harmony. Especially when we consider Who created science in the first place.

:angel:

 

[bibleberean]

Genesis 1:6-8 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

In the beginning there was a canopy of water that surrounded the earth in space.

When Noah's flood came the "flood gates of heaven were opened."

The water above the firmament began to fall to earth.

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Many creationist scientists believe that the canopy around the earth after the fall of Adam gives the explanation as to why men and animals lived so long. The Canopy protected them from the ultra violet rays of the sun.

Also unerneath the ice in Antartica tropical vegatation has been discovered which gives credible evidence that the earth at one time was completely tropical. Creationists claim that the water canopy which surrounded the earth before the flood caused a warmer climate all over the earth. It is called the "greenhouse effect".

The bible does not teach a flat earth.

Many people mistakenly believe Revelation 7:1 teaches a flat earth because of the language.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The "four corners" of the earth is a reference to directions, north, south, east, and west. We all use similar types of words when for instance we will use phrases such as the "sun rising and setting".

We know that the earth is moving and not the sun... :D

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Here the scriptures describes the earth is suspended in space without resting upon anything.

In Isaiah the earth is described as a circle. All the people on the earth could look at the moon and see it is a sphere...

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Jesus describes that when He returns it will be both night and day at the same time. Look at verse 31 and then at verse 34...

Luke 17:31-34 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

The bible does not teach that the earth is flat.

This is an attempt by those who wish to find fault with the scriptures so they can justify some secret sin they love and not take the bible literally.

 

[jgarden_47]

Matthew 23:24 Blind guides, straining out the gnat, but swallowing the camel!
(LITV)

Did the blind guides really swallow a camel? (a whole one; that is what this verse is telling us) The scientific laws of physics would tell you it is a physical impossibility. But the Bible says they swallowed camels. Which one is correct in this case? It all depends now on whether you see this as being literal or figurative.

This is what I was trying to say when I said you must look at these things within the context of when they were written (historical) and who was doing the writing (cultural).

By taking every single detail in as though they were literal, you are, in effect, swallowing a camel. (and, btw, you will run into these so-called contradictions the non believers are always pointing out to us)

Seven or eight people already posted in this thread. Are we all wrong and you're right? Sure science has it's problems, but so does religion. The simple fact that there are so many denominations, as you pointed out, prooves this. But one day, science and religion WILL be in complete harmony. Especially when we consider Who created science in the first place. :angel:

Please direct your attention to the following threads in 123 Christian forums -

-Science Can't Explain Everything

-Fizzling the Big Bang

-Scientific Facts in the Bible

- Does Evolution have any actual evidence?

-Fossil foolishness

-Maybe its all not true about man on the moon

-Racist Darwinism

-Evolution violates the laws of science

-Evil-lution

-Creationists vs evolutionists, who's the fool?

Presumably, I'm in good company with the rest of the blind guides who wrote those threads, all straining at swarms of gnats and swallowing herds of camels. One thing all of these threads have in common is questioning the role of science in religion. The whole issue focuses on literal vs metaphorical interpretations, irrespective of the laws of nature and physics.

-evolution vs creationism

-creation of Adam and Eve

-Trees of Knowledge, speaking serpents, gardens of Eden

-life spans upward of 1 000 years

-Noah's Ark

-crossing the Red Sea

-Sampson's hair as a source of strength

-Daniel in the lion's den

-the fiery furnace

- the Virgin Birth

-Feeding the 5 000

-Jesus waking on the water

Which of these would you take literally since all defy the laws of nature, including physics? If events in the Bible do not conform to science - why should a "flat earth" interpretation of the Scriptures be any different?

 

[bibleberean]

The bible is true. God created all things. Miracles are where God over rides His physical laws.

There are those who would make Jesus look like He was stupid.

Jesus taught that the bible was true...

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus taught that we should believe that there was a first man and a first woman...

Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Paul taught that Adam was literally formed from the earth...

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jude taught that Enoch was the seventh from Adam...

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

These are all true and meant to be believed. Only hereticks and skeptics teach other wise.

Also the bible does not teach a flat earth and it is not biblical.

Someone here is not a "bible believer"... 8-)

 

[jgarden_47]

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I'm glad you brought Mr. Enoch into the discussion. By attributing prophecy to Enoch, Jude confers inspired status upon the book. Enoch made several trips to the end of the earth guided by the angel, Uriel.

"I went to the extreme ends of the earth and saw there huge beasts, each different from the other and different birds (also) differing from one another in appearance, beauty, and voice. And to the east of those beasts, I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven. And the gates were open, and I saw how the stars of heaven came out..........(1 Enoch 33:1-2)

"I went in the direction of the north, to the extreme ends of the earth, and there at the extreme end of the world I saw a great and glorious seat. There (also) I saw three open gates of heaven; when it blows cold, hail, frost, snow, dew, and rain, through each one of the (gates) the winds proceed in the northwesterly direction." (1 Enoch 34:1-2)

"Flat earthers" contend that at the ends of the earth, it interconnects with the vault (firmament) that covers the earth like a dome.

-extreme ends of the earth

-ultimate ends of the earth

Are you implying that Enoch was not a "Bible Believer?"

 

[bibleberean]

The only books in the bible that are inspired are the 66 books that are in my bible.

The book of Enoch is not one of them.

Someone here is not a true bible believer... 8-)

Jude wrote what Enoch said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... The book of Jude is an inspired book...

Another scripture that refutes that the flat earth is a biblical doctrine...

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

When God forgives sin and removes them they are gone forever.

The Psalmist under the inspiration of God wrote "as far as from the east to the west". He did not write "as far as the north is from the south".

The end of North is the north pole. The end of the South is at the South pole.

If you travel west and continue you are always traveling west. If you travel east and continue you will always be traveling east.

Rudyard Kipling is recorded as saying, “East is east and West is west and never the twain shall meet.â€Â

So true so true... :-D

The bible does not teach the earth is flat.

As far at those who would cast doubt upon our God and His book are concerned...

Romans 3:4 ...yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

What type of man casts dispersions on the bible but claims to be a Christian.

The bible calls them "a liar". I must concur being a Christian and a staunch lover of God's word.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Amen and glory to God!

 

[Free]

Two errors jamesgarden:

1. You are once again taking a figure of speech to mean something literally and you really should stop doing that.

2. You assume that because Jude stated something about Enoch that the book by that name is inspired. But this is false. For the biblical authors to quote from other sources, which they do, does not mean that the authors thought those sources were inspired.

 

[jgarden_47]

Two errors jamesgarden:

1. You are once again taking a figure of speech to mean something literally and you really should stop doing that.

2. You assume that because Jude stated something about Enoch that the book by that name is inspired. But this is false. For the biblical authors to quote from other sources, which they do, does not mean that the authors thought those sources were inspired.

Which of these should be taken literally since they all defy the the laws of nature? Which also employ figures of speech?

-6 day Creation story

-creation of Adam and Eve from dust

-Trees of Knowledge, speaking serpents, gardens of Eden

-life spans upward of 1 000 years

-Noah's Ark

-crossing the Red Sea

-Sampson's hair as a source of strength

-Daniel in the lion's den

-the fiery furnace

- the Virgin Birth

-Feeding the 5 000

-Jesus waking on the water

2.

"Jude taught that Enoch was the seventh from Adam...

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

These are all true and meant to be believed. Only hereticks and skeptics teach other wise.

Also the bible does not teach a flat earth and it is not biblical.

Someone here is not a "bible believer"...

It was BB, not me, who introduced Enoch into the "discussion," to further his position, but I can't receive the same courtesy. For Jude to make specific reference to Enoch's prophecy, elevates the status of the latter. Did God provide Enoch with prophetic abilities or is this source a hoax? If it is the former, the Book of Enoch has been validated by Jude. Presumably, Jude was inspired by God to include Enoch, while the canon was compiled by Man.

3. Do you contend that every statement in Job, Psalms, Chronicles, Isaiah , Genesis, Daniel, and Enoch that refer to a "flat-earth" are all figures of speech?

"He (God) stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth over nothing." (Job26:7)

"And I came to an empty place. And I saw (there) neither a heaven above or below, but a chaotic and terrible place." (1 Enoch 21:1-2)

 

[bibleberean]

I take the bible literally.

6 day creation Adam from dust...etc.

God does not defy nature. He is the Creator of nature and can over ride his laws anytime He chooses.

Jude does not validate the book of Enoch. He is quoting what Enoch said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. If Jude is quoting from an early writing God did not see fit to place it in the bible.

It is obvious that you are not a bible believer.

The subject here is does the bible support belief in a flat earth.

I have provided adequate proof that it does not.

All hereticks try to cast doubt on the validity of the bible.

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

When God forgives sin and removes them they are gone forever.

The Psalmist under the inspiration of God wrote "as far as from the east to the west". He did not write "as far as the north is from the south".

The end of North is the north pole. The end of the South is at the South pole.

If you travel west and continue you are always traveling west. If you travel east and continue you will always be traveling east.

Rudyard Kipling is recorded as saying, “East is east and West is west and never the twain shall meet.â€Â

So true so true...

The bible does not teach the earth is flat.

The bible does not teach a flat earth.

Many people mistakenly believe Revelation 7:1 teaches a flat earth because of the language.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The "four corners" of the earth is a reference to directions, north, south, east, and west. We all use similar types of words when for instance we will use phrases such as the "sun rising and setting".

We know that the earth is moving and not the sun...

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Here the scriptures describes the earth is suspended in space without resting upon anything.

In Isaiah the earth is described as a circle. All the people on the earth could look at the moon and see it is a sphere...

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Jesus describes that when He returns it will be both night and day at the same time. Look at verse 31 and then at verse 34...

Luke 17:31-34 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

The bible does not teach that the earth is flat.



There are those who would make Jesus look like He was stupid.

Jesus taught that the bible was true...

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus taught that we should believe that there was a first man and a first woman...

Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Paul taught that Adam was literally formed from the earth...

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jude taught that Enoch was the seventh from Adam...

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

These are all true and meant to be believed. Only hereticks and skeptics teach other wise.

 

[Free]

Which of these should be taken literally since they all defy the the laws of nature? Which also employ figures of speech?

-6 day Creation story

-creation of Adam and Eve from dust

-Trees of Knowledge, speaking serpents, gardens of Eden

-life spans upward of 1 000 years

-Noah's Ark

-crossing the Red Sea

-Sampson's hair as a source of strength

-Daniel in the lion's den

-the fiery furnace

- the Virgin Birth

-Feeding the 5 000

-Jesus waking on the water

What do any of these events have to do with figures of speech? What does "ends of the earth" have to do with Jesus walking on water? You are comparing apples and oranges.

To answer your question, yes, all the above are true events in that they did occur. Of course, this does not mean that they happened as literally as you have written them. The fact that they defy the laws of nature is irrelevant to whether or not they are true or literal. I would think that a being with the knowledge and power to create the universe and all its laws also has the ability to do things that defy these laws.

It was BB, not me, who introduced Enoch into the "discussion," to further his position, but I can't receive the same courtesy.

It doesn't matter who introduced Enoch into the discussion, it matters on how that reference to Enoch is being used.

For Jude to make specific reference to Enoch's prophecy, elevates the status of the latter. Did God provide Enoch with prophetic abilities or is this source a hoax? If it is the former, the Book of Enoch has been validated by Jude. Presumably, Jude was inspired by God to include Enoch, while the canon was compiled by Man.

A couple of things:

1. Certainly the book of Enoch was thought of highly in the early church and was mentioned by Jude, but this does not mean that the actual writing of Enoch was inspired by God. Just because a book contains some truth, and someone acknowledges that truth, does not mean that the book was inspired by God.

2. The canon was inspired by God; there is no reason to believe that it wasn't.

Do you contend that every statement in Job, Psalms, Chronicles, Isaiah , Genesis, Daniel, and Enoch that refer to a "flat-earth" are all figures of speech?

"He (God) stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth over nothing." (Job26:7)

"And I came to an empty place. And I saw (there) neither a heaven above or below, but a chaotic and terrible place." (1 Enoch 21:1-2)

I have not read every statement that refers to the shape of the earth, but I am quite certain that all would be figures of speech.

 

[jgarden_47]

NEW TESTAMENT CANON - Prior to Eusebius (4thC), there was no concensus and there were several contested books. Eusebius, under the request of Emperor Constantine, is largely responsible for providing 21 of the 27 books of the NT. If the canon was devinely inspired, are we to assume that Eusebius was only approximately 70% inspired?

Biblical refernces that relate to a flat earth include -

1. "four corners of the earth" - 3X

2. "ends of the earth" - 43X

3. "ends of the world" - 2X

4. "foundations of the earth" - 18X

5. "earth's pillars" - 2x

6. "face of the earth" - 24X

7. "flat earth is stationary" - 5X

8. Other passages - 4X

These references include Acts, Revelation, Deuteronomy, 1 Samuel, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiath, Daniel, Mich, Mark, Luke, Romans, Amos, Mich, Zechariah, Hebrews, Genesis, Exodus, Kings Ezekiel, Zephaniah, 1Chronicles, Ecclestiasties

What is the criteria for acceptance of some Biblical events (6 day creation)and the rejection of others?

 

[Steve]

Well, the Russian Synod in Exile(Russian Orthodox Church Abroad) sponsors a Flat Earth Society somewhere in California.

So much for the Russian Synod in Exile :roll: