Flipping The Bird

[Lewis]

Man cited for "flipping the bird" at another driver
10:47 PM, Jun 27, 2011


Ballwin, MO (KSDK) - A Florissant man is fighting his case in court after being issued a ticket for using a certain hand gesture toward another driver. Was his freedom of speech violated?

It's a story that's been the talk around the water cooler. Steven Pogue has been getting a lot of attention lately, all because of a little yellow piece of paper given to him by Ballwin police back in April.

It's a ticket for flipping another driver the bird.

"I was frustrated," said Pogue.

Pogue tells NewsChannel 5 it was a busy Saturday and he was sitting at a light on Manchester, heading west at Holloway. That's when Pogue says another driver ventured into an already jammed intersection as the light was turning red, blocking his way, and voiding his green light.

"The driver of the van and I made contact. I was driving west and the arm was there and like I said, not proud, showed my displeasure in them blocking the intersection," said Pogue.

Just a few blocks later, Pogue was pulled over by Ballwin police and given a citation.

"He said, 'Yeah, I was thinking about going after them until I saw you flip them off.' So it's like let's see, the person that breaks the two laws, walks. The person kind of doing their first amendment free speech right thing gets the ticket," Pogue said.

The ordinance cited for the ticket reads, no person shall "...extend any part of his body outside of the vehicle expect the hand and arm for signaling purposes only."

"I signaled, so I think I'm in compliance," said Pogue.

Ballwin police are not talking about this citation on camera, but an officer did tell NewsChannel 5 this ordinance is not used very often. In fact, officers say there's not even a set fine for it on the books.
Pogue says he's concerned his freedom of speech was violated, and is prepared to represent himself, during his next court appearance.

"I'm just going to use the jurisprudence system and see if I can go to court on the 23rd of August and prove myself innocent," he said.

NewsChannel 5 contacted several attorneys about this case. Most say this is not an issue of first amendment rights, but more about safety. An attorney for the ACLU say this particular citation is a violation of free speech and the group is now interested in this case.
USAToday

 

[Jab-Jab]

The cop is a scumbag.

 

[jasoncran]

The cop is a scumbag.

road rage. i have mixed feelings on that but.. if i do that to my co and he takes my rank and takes money and also puts me in confinement for that is that wrong and a violation of free speech?

disrespecting an officer or superior is punishable. it used to be that if you cursed at a cop he could take you in.

 

[Jab-Jab]

road rage. i have mixed feelings on that but.. if i do that to my co and he takes my rank and takes money and also puts me in confinement for that is that wrong and a violation of free speech?

Military is not the same as civilian life. You choose to loose certain benefits of your rights when you signed up. It is part of the agreement.

disrespecting an officer or superior is punishable. it used to be that if you cursed at a cop he could take you in.

This is actually a downfall of our law system. Respect isn't a uniform, its earned. When an officer abuses their power, they loose the right to be respected, because their job is to keep order.

There is a reason why the first 5 amendments to the constitution all involve either personal liberties and/ or possible prisoners. Its because the officer in himself is not the justice system.

This case will probably get its day in court and the ticket will probably be discredited based on how absurd it is. If not, then the township and county needs to get involved with the police department and the officer himself will be disgraced by the people and loose both the trust and respect his uniform gave him.

 

[Lewis]

Military is not the same as civilian life. You choose to loose certain benefits of your rights when you signed up. It is part of the agreement.

This is actually a downfall of our law system. Respect isn't a uniform, its earned. When an officer abuses their power, they loose the right to be respected, because their job is to keep order.

There is a reason why the first 5 amendments to the constitution all involve either personal liberties and/ or possible prisoners. Its because the officer in himself is not the justice system.

This case will probably get its day in court and the ticket will probably be discredited based on how absurd it is. If not, then the township and county needs to get involved with the police department and the officer himself will be disgraced by the people and loose both the trust and respect his uniform gave him.

Good post, I agree.

 

[jasoncran]

gee assume much.

YUP. i didnt agree with that leo decision.


i say i could understand

if i did how you say, i dont respect my boss, total jerk. so i guess when he tell me do this i should flip him off? that my friend gets you fired. i have many bosses in the civilain life that are jerks and rude. hated some of them, yet since i worked for them i had to obey if i wanted a job that is how it works.

do i have to like a cop to obey him when he pulls me over?

 

[Jab-Jab]

gee assume much.

YUP. i didnt agree with that leo decision.


i say i could understand

That is good.

if i did how you say, i dont respect my boss, total jerk. so i guess when he tell me do this i should flip him off? that my friend gets you fired. i have many bosses in the civilain life that are jerks and rude. hated some of them, yet since i worked for them i had to obey if i wanted a job that is how it works.

You are correct on how you would be fired since you sold your time to your boss. The main thing here is that you have to right to refuse service and take your business elsewhere if you don't like the conditions. Unless you formed a (private) emphasis on private, union and have legal leway with your employer. Though disrespecting the employer in himself actually voids this.

do i have to like a cop to obey him when he pulls me over?

You don't have to like him/her, but the cop is subject to evaluation if he/she abuses their power. That is why I'm opposing this sudden incline of states making it either illegal or harder to videotape or record interactions with the police. This is an authority they don't deserve.

 

[jasoncran]

That is good.

You are correct on how you would be fired since you sold your time to your boss. The main thing here is that you have to right to refuse service and take your business elsewhere if you don't like the conditions. Unless you formed a (private) emphasis on private, union and have legal leway with your employer. Though disrespecting the employer in himself actually voids this.

You don't have to like him/her, but the cop is subject to evaluation if he/she abuses their power. That is why I'm opposing this sudden incline of states making it either illegal or harder to videotape or record interactions with the police. This is an authority they don't deserve.

well i agree with that, as that keeps the cops inline and also can work for them.most cops like the idea of cameras as they often are reminded that they have to react and act properly and also it helps there case more often then not

people lie that are charged often and the camera will often show and tell the truth.

not in florida that law isnt on the books. here we have cameras on all cop cars within my city and county and state. just wish the dod police and or mps had them.

 

[Lewis]

some cops can be complete, and I say complete idiots, I have run into my fair share of them. This cop who gave this dude an infraction because he flipped a bird at someone else is a idiot. The reason" I'm glad you asked' because the bird was not flipped at him.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Might makes right - universally.

"When an officer abuses their power, they loose the right to be respected"

Nope - whether the Cop is RIGHT or WRONG - he's got the gun. And THAT'S all that matters.

 

[Pard]

"He said, 'Yeah, I was thinking about going after them until I saw you flip them off.' So it's like let's see, the person that breaks the two laws, walks.

Cop should have used a little bit of discretion and gone for the van because he was really breaking some rather serious traffic laws. Disrupting the flow of traffic is a very big issue.

no person shall "...extend any part of his body outside of the vehicle expect the hand and arm for signaling purposes only."

Bad law. But judging by the guy's claim he has an equally bad lawyer. If this guy has the money to take such a stupid thing to court than he has the money to get a lawyer with enough brain to realize that this law is to broad thus is unconstitutional.

Pogue says he's concerned his freedom of speech was violated, and is prepared to represent himself, during his next court appearance.

An attorney for the ACLU say this particular citation is a violation of free speech and the group is now interested in this case.

Again a good lawyer would realize this man has NO case in this regard. His first amendment rights were not violated. There are specific restrictions (as outlined by the supreme court) that denies people the use a first amendment protection for obscenity in a public place. The middle finger is an obscenity and as such it falls under this ruling made by the supreme court.

Not surprised in the least that the ACLU says he has a case. They don't take cases to win them. They take cases to make the news headlines. Winning a court trial makes it to the law review headlines. Screaming and bickering about someone's apparent amendment violations makes it to the MSM headlines.

Like I said the man has a case because he is being charged with a law that is far to broad.

And Jab-Jab you'd be wrong. The uniform most definitely brings respect with it. An officer of the law has to make serious sacrifices in order to do his job. We are not talking long hours and sleeping during the days. We are talking serious lifestyle changes in order to become an officer. Besides that they have a target painted on them 24/7. There is no off-duty when it comes to being a police officer. Your pay may end at the end of your 12 hours but the job doesn't end until you retire.

They most definitely deserve your respect because they are doing the job others don't want to do. They have to put up with kids calling them "scumbags"...

Bob- Gun isn't about respect. It's about a healthy dose of fear.

 

[jasoncran]

of course the po-po are hated these days. pard here is in the academy. i myself have the similar job in the military. so i can see where pard comes from. plenty of officers in my county i probably wont like but you have to know how to talk to them and when they cross the line, do as they say and then request their supervisor or meet the cheif of police or equalevant and state your case.and yes that does work. several officers here have had shortened careers over that.

most of the time cops dont bother me since i know most of pd that i work in.

 

[Pard]

Biggest thing to remember when dealing with cops is that you are dealing with a different culture. Sure they live in your town/county/state but they don't live in your culture. Cops (for the most part) are pretty much exiled from the community and end up bonding to one another. They are like foreigners really. Just something to keep in mind when you interacting with a LEO.

And Jason. Not academy yet. Getting myself a cop degree in college first. Stupid age restrictions are preventing me from going to academy until I'm 21... Almost moved to LA because you can join their PD at 19 but then I remembered that I hate Cali.

 

[jasoncran]

perhaps that is why i get along with them, i understand them. move to florida its 18 here.

 

[Jake]

Biggest thing to remember when dealing with cops is that you are dealing with a different culture. Sure they live in your town/county/state but they don't live in your culture. Cops (for the most part) are pretty much exiled from the community and end up bonding to one another. They are like foreigners really. Just something to keep in mind when you interacting with a LEO.

And Jason. Not academy yet. Getting myself a cop degree in college first. Stupid age restrictions are preventing me from going to academy until I'm 21... Almost moved to LA because you can join their PD at 19 but then I remembered that I hate Cali.

I thought you were going to be a paramedic?

The cops I have met think too highly of themselves, but maybe that's just out here?

 

[Pard]

No EMT. That's just something to do while I twiddle my thumbs for the next year. :D

18 in Florida? Hmmm...

 

[Jake]

No EMT. That's just something to do while I twiddle my thumbs for the next year. :D

18 in Florida? Hmmm...

jason meet your new roommate.
If pard goes, I go.

 

[jasoncran]

jason meet your new roommate.
If pard goes, I go.

lol.he likes action i suggest metro-dade or west palm beach. i dont live in the counties.
my county isnt slow but they dont pay as much either.

 

[Pard]

Man if I go to Florida I'm hitting up Broward County!

 

[jasoncran]

Man if I go to Florida I'm hitting up Broward County!

you like that part. learn spanish and get good. i know a few good churches there.